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The CA101 sounds more academic than the CA100. perhaps Kawai will go back to the basics: CA001, or the CA-R2D2. Think of the problem they're going to have with the MP7 next go around: it will be the MP8! Whoops, been there, done that.
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They might call it the MP8ish, or the MP8ii. Wait, they already did that?
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The CA101 sounds more academic than the CA100. perhaps Kawai will go back to the basics: CA001, or the CA-R2D2. They could call it CP 1 3 and 5 but wait..... There is Yamaha CP...
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I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers You believe that selling upgrade boards is more profitable than selling a complete instrument? just like Steinway make their money in servicing and selling genuine spare parts. Are you sure? Do you have a source for that information? Are you suggesting that Steinway's piano building business is actually just a front to sell upgrades and servicing? ...when they bring out new stuff to make large sections of their customers feel like they have "second best" equipment... I expect you are referring to the CA97 superseding your CA95, and can appreciate your feeling to a certain extent. However, this is the nature of technology. The 'latest and greatest' phone, tablet, TV, bike, etc. will only remain so for a limited number of time before the next generation of products are announced by their respective manufacturers. And as I believe I explained to you previously, the arrival of the CA97 does not negatively impact the quality of your CA95... it just means it's no longer the 'latest and greatest'. Kind regards, James x
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I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers You believe that selling upgrade boards is more profitable than selling a complete instrument? Existing customers already have the complete instruments, and they're not generally inclined to buy another, or if they do, they'll sell their instrument to someone else, who will then not buy one new. You're making no money at all from existing customers, so yes, selling upgrades will make you more money than the alternative, which is not selling anything. Also, I imagine the margins on selling upgrade boards or just software are pretty good, compared to full instruments, which require operating Indonesian assembly plants and transporting 100 kg packages around the globe. just like Steinway make their money in servicing and selling genuine spare parts. Are you sure? Do you have a source for that information? I am guessing based on the way servicing and spare parts are emphasised almost to the exclusion of new sales on their website, plus a bit of common sense. How do you think Steinway make money from customers who buy their instrument used - which is probably the great majority of them, when you consider the lifetime of an instrument and the average ownership time? Are you suggesting that Steinway's piano building business is actually just a front to sell upgrades and servicing? No, I am not suggesting anything is a "front", but spare parts and servicing is a large part of their business. ...when they bring out new stuff to make large sections of their customers feel like they have "second best" equipment... I expect you are referring to the CA97 superseding your CA95, and can appreciate your feeling to a certain extent. I was referring to the MP11 owners in this thread who are now demanding MP12s, since now they see that the MP11 doesn't have Kawai's latest action or sounds. That's bound to put potential buyers off, and annoy people who've recently bought one. And as I believe I explained to you previously, the arrival of the CA97 does not negatively impact the quality of your CA95... It does, because it means the developers stop making any effort to improve the CA95/65 firmware, because it's no longer a current model in the shops that can attract new buyers. There are still a bunch of things in the CA95 firmware that I think need fixing, and perhaps some of them have been, but you only include it in the CA97 firmware, rather than issuing a CA95 update. I don't expect developers to work for free, but you could sell me an update for £50 or whatever. It's just not worth the £1000 loss I'd take on an upgrade to the CA97, plus all the associated hassle and risk. But this is rather off-topic.
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
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"You believe that selling upgrade boards is more profitable than selling a complete instrument?
Yes, James, that is true. The ratio of gross profit of complete units vs parts sales really favors parts. You may not make more total dollars of profit in parts, but the profit ratio in parts far exceeds new units. Think "percentage" not total dollars.
Beyond the normal Keystone Markup (200%) it us quite common to use a 5x 10x or even 20x markup for parts.
IMHO, there is little difference between a 95 and 97 except the Sound Engine. Let's say that is so. Would I pay $350-495 for a new mother board/sound engine? Sure would. I doubt that board costs you more than $85 cost. Sell it for 400+ percent? When a pinano might fetch 25% gross profit? On a good day? Hmmmm
Selling parts is great business and zero direct labor.
Jon ...
Kawai CA67 A Tired, Retired, Dreamer ...
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Part's Profit vs Unit Profit ...
Is it easier to build something from scratch, in a factory with alot of people? For a 20-30% gross profit? Or pull a small item from a shelf and box it. For an 80-90% gross profit? Or more?
Profit dollars you are completely missing, today. For so little work (Think Overhead).
+++
An example. A true story.
I buy a new car. It includes a gas tank in the total price. Gross profit on cars is kinda slim. Years later, my tank rusts out. At factory cost, that might be a $30 item. Or less. I go to the Dealer and pay $435 for a new one. (I did).
Hmmmm ... ... ...
Jon ...
Kawai CA67 A Tired, Retired, Dreamer ...
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Now, if DPs were made to be modular, then it would be a simpler matter to upgrade as you went along, staying with the same brand (because no doubt, it would be proprietary for each company), but if they come out with a better sound sample, then it would be designed to be upgraded vs. completely replaced.
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IMHO, there is little difference between a 95 and 97 except the Sound Engine. Have you played both of them side by side?
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There are no plans to introduce any new MP models for a couple of years at least. Well, in this case maybe we could dream up here or to express some wishes about next MP? Since this is one of the first topics about next MP(12?). (: Sure, the most obvious are Grand Feel II action, new sound engine with new or some extra piano samples (from CA97 for example, or maybe even newer), maybe some extra uprights or 88-sampled upright piano. Personally I'd like to have more sounds, including classical organs, especially powerful big pipe church organ. I didn't like that Kawai cut sound set in MP11 in comparing with MP7. Maybe the ability to choose or edit touch curves. I'd like to have sequencer too. Maybe someone will tell me I want too much, this is not a workstation, but stage piano etc. But maybe even simple sequencer with 3 tracks and some simple editor. Or some development of great Overdub feature and USB Audio Recorder. Arpeggiator? Why not, we have drum rhythms in MP12/7 which is good. Oh! And one more thing. © There is one narrow fabric at the base of the keys. Usually it has red color on grand pianos. And VPC1 has it in red. But MP7 and MP12 have something like dark blue or grey color of this fabric. And I don't know why. But I'm not sure about this and do not insist, just interesting your opinion.
KAWAI MP7; K&M 18953; Wenger Preface Conductor's Stand PreSonus Eris E8; Ultimate Support MS-100B; K&M 16085 Headphone holder iPad Pro 12.9" (2017), forScore, Sibelius 7.5 (PC), Apple Pencil, PageFlip Firefly, AirTurn PEDpro K&M 12295; Gator GKC 88 | My photos
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9190, thank you for your suggestions.
We will certainly bear these points in mind when planning for the next generation of MP instruments in a few years time.
Kind regards, James x
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Existing customers already have the complete instruments, and they're not generally inclined to buy another, or if they do, they'll sell their instrument to someone else, who will then not buy one new. You're making no money at all from existing customers, so yes, selling upgrades will make you more money than the alternative, which is not selling anything.
Also, I imagine the margins on selling upgrade boards or just software are pretty good, compared to full instruments, which require operating Indonesian assembly plants and transporting 100 kg packages around the globe. It's a good argument, however I'm afraid I do not agree. Manufacturers will almost always prefer to sell complete products rather than upgrades. Are you suggesting that Steinway's piano building business is actually just a front to sell upgrades and servicing? No, I am not suggesting anything is a "front", but spare parts and servicing is a large part of their business. Yes, I'm sure it is. However, I expect selling complete pianos is more profitable. Kind regards, James x
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It's well known that, in the 70's, British Leyland only made profits in its spare part division. BL was a standing joke and embarrasment at the time. Austin Allegro. Morris Marina. Austin Ambassedor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LroHr6aOo4now And it is folk wisdom that Xerox (and now the rest of them too: HP, Epson) is 'really an ink cartridge vendor', much in the way that Richard Dawkins claims that we humans are giant, lumbering DNA transporters - anything about the zest of life or falling in love etc. is mere mechanics to keep the wheels turning. (what for?) So this sort of business model, where the main sales are not the 'star product' has a tarnished reputation. But it makes a lot of sense in this case, where the main product is very expensive and both hardware and software developments occur well within the life cycle of the product itself; the digital piano.
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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It's well known that, in the 70's, British Leyland only made profits in its spare part division. BL was a standing joke and embarrasment at the time. Austin Allegro. Morris Marina. Austin Ambassedor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LroHr6aOo4nowThis was a little bit before my time, although I did learn to drive in a Morris 1100. Probably not the best analogy, but kudos for posting the John Shuttleworth clip. Hmmm...I wonder if he owns a DGX-650? And it is folk wisdom that Xerox (and now the rest of them too: HP, Epson) is 'really an ink cartridge vendor'... True. The printers themselves are probably sold at a loss in order to make money on the ink cartridges. I'm not entirely sure I see the connection with digital pianos though. Cheers, James x
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Hmmm...I wonder if he owns a DGX-650? Interesting thought. But we must not forget the War of the Roses, must we?
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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Existing customers already have the complete instruments, and they're not generally inclined to buy another, or if they do, they'll sell their instrument to someone else, who will then not buy one new. You're making no money at all from existing customers, so yes, selling upgrades will make you more money than the alternative, which is not selling anything.
Also, I imagine the margins on selling upgrade boards or just software are pretty good, compared to full instruments, which require operating Indonesian assembly plants and transporting 100 kg packages around the globe. It's a good argument, however I'm afraid I do not agree. Manufacturers will almost always prefer to sell complete products rather than upgrades. Are you suggesting that Steinway's piano building business is actually just a front to sell upgrades and servicing? No, I am not suggesting anything is a "front", but spare parts and servicing is a large part of their business. Yes, I'm sure it is. However, I expect selling complete pianos is more profitable. Kind regards, James x We sold upgrade boards for years. (SR-JV Series, SRX series, ARX Series even TDW-1 Expansions for V-Drums) Customers appreciated them. But I always enjoyed selling a Fantom X, TD-10 Kit, RD Piano, or XV module/piano ALONG with those boards. Jay
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We sold upgrade boards for years. (SR-JV Series, SRX series, ARX Series even TDW-1 Expansions for V-Drums) Customers appreciated them. But I always enjoyed selling a Fantom X, TD-10 Kit, RD Piano, or XV module/piano ALONG with those boards.
Jay
I have a JD-XA on order. Any expansion boards for it? :-)
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... Richard Dawkins claims that we humans are giant, lumbering DNA transporters - anything about the zest of life or falling in love etc. is mere mechanics to keep the wheels turning. The Selfish Gene is an incredible book, one of the most interesting and wide ranging I've ever read. And it's been a while since I read it, but I believe he went out of his way to not say what you are saying he said. Even if our genes are running our lives in some sense, they aren't necessarily doing so at every moment and in every way.
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We sold upgrade boards for years. (SR-JV Series, SRX series, ARX Series even TDW-1 Expansions for V-Drums) Customers appreciated them. But I always enjoyed selling a Fantom X, TD-10 Kit, RD Piano, or XV module/piano ALONG with those boards.
Jay
I have a JD-XA on order. Any expansion boards for it? :-) Hahaha not that I'm aware of, but thats awesome that you're getting one. I am hoping to see a prototype before too long to show my dealers. I am buying one for sure. From what I understand, the Axial website, will allow you to load sounds onto the JD-Xa for the digital section and possibly even the 4 analog parts. When I learn more about the XA, I'll share.... Jay
Industry Consultant
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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