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#2416363 - 05/02/15 08:23 AM "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 47
Part of the ongoing "real enough" series...aim is to shatter preconceptions about the limitations of digital instruments.

[video:google]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDZPNgv9L70[/video]

As ever, no real pianos were used in the video—the question is, would the average listener be able to tell? Instrument you're hearing is the Garritan CFX; Ravenscroft demo is next.

Full playlist of "Real Enough" demos is here

Details of the all-digital setup are in the original thread


Edited by Philip_Johnston (05/02/15 08:53 AM)

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#2416369 - 05/02/15 08:39 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Lazerlike42 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 22
Excellent playing, but I do have 2 criticisms of the project.

First, neither this nor any of the other videos say anything about what technology was used in their recording, which to me severely limits the power of the videos to accomplish much of anything. If I were to show this to someone, they would have no reason to believe me in telling them that it is not a real piano, and those finding them online would have nothing to say to them, "guess what? This is a digital piano!"

A note either at the end of the video or hidden in the video description is, I think, essential - especially if you are going to begin adding other libraries to the fold. I went through the playlist and have no idea what instrument each is actually playing. I assume they are all Garritan CFX, but how am I to tell?

Second, there is something off with your buffering or hard disk read rate which is causing a very nasty little static pop every few seconds throughout the recording, which very badly hurts the case you're trying to make, because real pianos don't have that awful little noise every few seconds. The average person listening to the video would take it as the proof that digital pianos are very limited, indeed!

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#2416370 - 05/02/15 08:51 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 47
Lazerlike, I actually agree with your first point - the reason I haven't owned up though is that there are a lot of listeners who will click away as soon as they read "digital piano". One way to handle it might be with a reveal that's actually in the video itself.

The reason it's shot in black and white, and with the light turned down so much, is to try to mask the fact that the piano doesn't have strings (you can see if you really look).

Your second point worried me more though, only because I can't hear the static pops you referred to? Can anyone else hear them? (I couldn't hear them with headphones on, nor are they present in the master video).

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#2416373 - 05/02/15 08:54 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
scorpio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 712
Loc: Connecticut, USA
I did not hear any pops.

I enjoy the videos. Thank you.
_________________________
Kawai MP11 :: JBL LSR305 :: Focusrite 2i4 :: Pianoteq Standard

“The important thing is to feel your music, really feel it and believe it.” –Ray Charles

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#2416386 - 05/02/15 09:18 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Alexander Borro Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/14
Posts: 296
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By Philip_Johnston

Your second point worried me more though, only because I can't hear the static pops you referred to? Can anyone else hear them? (I couldn't hear them with headphones on, nor are they present in the master video).


I also detect a small pop or click at 10 secs, 20 secs, 30 in the video and so on, but it is very minor and you have to turn it up a little bit for it to become more obvious. Your previous older videos seem fine and I don't hear it.

Great performances though and for me didn't detract from the joy in listening smile , Sure, if I wanted ultimate production quality I'd want rid of those little pops, but then you probably wouldn't use youtube anyway and be limited by its compression.


Edited by Alexander Borro (05/02/15 09:19 AM)
_________________________
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Books: Barratt classic piano course book 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various others
Hardware: Casio Celviano AP 450 & various peripherals:
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#2416399 - 05/02/15 10:24 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
augustm Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/15
Posts: 25
Loc: Paris
you should finish with a real overview of the software options.

Many reviews seem to be available on the net, but it is rare that
one can have confidence in them as musicians. A run down on your feelings for each combination for the classical
pianist would be a wonderful service.

Above all it would be interesting to have an idea of how they are
to play - mainly on headphones for my own interest.

In recent weeks playing with digital pianos in stores I have only been
convinced by the yamaha SH system. No in-built fully digital piano is as good: Are there software pianos that you consider as good as say
the U1-SH? which is what I am converging to at the moment. My personal
repertoire alternates mostly between Bach and Scriabin. So very different requirements in terms of resonance and tone production.
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#2416408 - 05/02/15 10:57 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
AllanH Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Central Coast, California, USA
I'd be very interested if you'd be willing to share the software, settings, and equipment used.

Background: I primarily use the Garritan CFX and Pianoteq 5. I have good headphones (imo), good CPU, lots of memory but cannot make the CFX sound anything but "harsh" (more than usual for a Yamaha), while the Pianoteq D4 is clean and deep. So you're clearly succeeding where I'm not.

One idea for the tech details would be a link to a Google+ page where you describe your setup. That way one has to actually click though to see it.

I truly enjoyed your playing. Something to aspire to!

Thanks for taking the time.

Allan



Edited by AllanH (05/02/15 10:58 AM)

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#2416435 - 05/02/15 12:20 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Thanks again Philip - still sounds very real and of course excellent playing. I can't hear any clicks/pops yet either. If the clicks are due to a system performance issue (as opposed to defects in the instrument samples), they should disappear if you first record the MIDI, and then do an offline render to create the audio, assuming the CFX and DAW properly support that type of render. If you are already doing it that way, it *could* mean the clicks are present in the samples themselves.

Greg.
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#2416445 - 05/02/15 01:00 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
toddy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2103
Loc: Portugal
There are clicks in the recording - which by the way is great, inspiring playing again. I get these kinds of clicks when I play with too few samples in the buffer. I cannot beleive they would be present in the samples. They are due to the computer processing being too slow, I think.

You would certainly get rid of the problem by converting the midi performance to digital audio recordings in the recording environment. This is called 'rendering to audio' in my DAW, Reaper. But increasing the sample buffer size will also solve the problem. Of course you will not want to do that whilst you are playing - you want the quickest response, the lowest latency. But replaying the track with 256 samples in the buffer rather than 64 will free up processing power.

Having said that, a computer running a fast CPU such as i7 4770k or AMD FX 8350 shouldn't give any problems of this sort at all how ever heavy the tasks you demand of it. My computer's CPU* is reputedly orders of magnitude slower than today's fast, well designed CPUs and so I have to be careful multi-tracking and running CPU heavy VSTi such as Pianoteq 5.

*My Xeon is rated 478 compared to the i7 which scores 10,211!
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DAW: Reaper // VSTs inc: NI Komplete 9 // A/D/A: Audiophile 2496
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g// Monitors: Yamaha HS7s .

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#2416547 - 05/02/15 07:34 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Alexander Borro]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 841
Loc: USA
I also hear the popping sound, which is very likely caused by the computer running out of juice when too many notes are played. It could be because the hard drive is not fast enough or the CPU doesn't have enough power. Simple workaround would be just slow down the tempo and throw fewer notes at the computer! grin

I could tell it's not a real piano because I practice on a real perfectly maintained grand piano everyday. Garratan CFX is amazing, perhaps the best in terms of sound out there, but real it is not. The problem is mostly in the treble area where the variation of color is much less than I would expect from a real piano in primo condition, which it otherwise sound like one. That gives it an artificial flavor, since the condition of the piano is so good but the variations of overtones of most of the intervals are not coming through. It's like having the notes thrown in the air without getting the sum of the notes.

Having said that I think it serves well as a high end practice tool. It also would be difficult if not impossible to detect as not real if it was used as a orchestral piano.

My teacher and I were just discussing techniques on the piano regarding how to handle damper effects when she mentioned a few things none of the virtual piano software pay attention to including Pianoteq. Having note-off velocity helps but even Pianoteq isn't totally realistic according to her. A product that supports continuous pedaling and many different keyoff expressions is essential for classical musicians. She's very keen on all the little effects inside the grand piano, and exploiting all of them for expressivity. I'm more disappointed that when taking the notes away and listening to the overtones, all digital software produce very similar overtones for most intervals. You don't have to be a piano tuner to know that the overtones of different intervals are vastly different but only sound slightly different coming from software, the result of which is that software lacks a lot of sound. Software pianos are easy to like but tough to love.
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#2416552 - 05/02/15 07:40 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: toddy]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 841
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By toddy
*My Xeon is rated 478 compared to the i7 which scores 10,211!


You need a modern Xeon CPU. Time to upgrade to Haswell. The Xeon E5-2699v3 has 18-cores / 36 logical threads. A dual socket system would give you 36-cores / 72 threads. That odd to be enough for the most CPU hungry anything at the moment. Heck, you probably could run all your software pianos at the same time.

A Haswell system could support 1.5 TB of RAM, so I would just load the entire library into RAM and not worried about SSD latency, or use PCIe flash storage instead of SATA SSD, which is slow. grin
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#2416554 - 05/02/15 07:59 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 841
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Philip_Johnston
Part of the ongoing "real enough" series...aim is to shatter preconceptions about the limitations of digital instruments.


Thanks for making the huge effort to put this together. I really appreciate it. My current opinion is that it is pretty close to hearing a real recorded piano, but not quite. I know none of this stuff is easy. My teacher is hugely into digital, so this is really good stuff. I started out on digital and increasingly running the other direction. I have the N3 but not Garratan.
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#2416568 - 05/02/15 09:09 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
ElmerJFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 484
The N3 is quite playable for virtuosic classical material. Dispite improvements in on board sampling technology moving at a snale's pace (a weakness that software developers have capitalized on, and rightly so) the AvantGrand is a nice jump when it comes to piano-like action. It feels really good to play, and if there is anything they can build on its in speed and accuracy of sensors. It's already very good, but when you're playing really complex stuff ultra low latency and accuracy on the really light touch stuff is where they should concentrate.

Philip, your playing is precise on this cut and you're speaking on this instrument is very clear. You've obviously gotten to know the instrument and know how to manipulate it to achieve what you're going for.

What is your opinion on ways the tech in your rig could be improved on yet?

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#2416594 - 05/02/15 11:02 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I have officially joined the "can hear the clicks" club. Initially, I was listening with, I think, pretty good headphones, but on my smartphone, over WiFi. I was confident that I would hear defects, even though it's "only a smartphone".

I have now switched to my laptop and a USB audio interface, with a headphone amp, driving better headphones, and I immediately hear clicks and pops.

I am very surprised at how noticable the defects are on the laptop, given that I hear no problems whatsoever on my smartphone. I might investigate this further, because it sounds like something more than a simple frequency response issue to me.

Greg.
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#2416596 - 05/02/15 11:19 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Just maybe, this could be a client playback issue, and the recording is fine.

I do NOT hear clicks with Internet Explorer, nor the standard version of the Chrome browser.

I DO hear clicks with Chrome Canary. (the developer version of Chrome).

I'm running Win8.1-X64.

Greg.
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#2416597 - 05/02/15 11:19 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 47
Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
The N3 is quite playable for virtuosic classical material. Dispite improvements in on board sampling technology moving at a snale's pace (a weakness that software developers have capitalized on, and rightly so) the AvantGrand is a nice jump when it comes to piano-like action. It feels really good to play, and if there is anything they can build on its in speed and accuracy of sensors. It's already very good, but when you're playing really complex stuff ultra low latency and accuracy on the really light touch stuff is where they should concentrate.

Philip, your playing is precise on this cut and you're speaking on this instrument is very clear. You've obviously gotten to know the instrument and know how to manipulate it to achieve what you're going for.

What is your opinion on ways the tech in your rig could be improved on yet?



Exactly what you identified—it's time for Yamaha to invest as much in sampling as they have in the (truly excellent) physical realities of the N3 keyboard.

Would love to see the next Yamaha N-series piano ship with a multi-terabyte hard drive preloaded with a sample library custom built by a dream team consortium of industry experts. 128 velocity layers for every one of the 88 notes for pinpoint dynamics, and true one-to-one correspondence with midi velocity levels. No compromises with pedalling. And all the heavy lifting done by the piano's onboard CPU, so that an ageing DAW setup can record it all without the desktop computer bursting into flames.

And when even that onboard sound library inevitably becomes obsolete? I shouldn't have to sell the otherwise perfectly usable (and still excellent) keyboard. I should be able to download new pianos or updates to the engine the way gamers download DLC.

The reality at the moment is very different. The recordings I'm making are only possible with the help of Virtual Instruments—the onboard Yamaha sounds are really only ok for learning notes, and practicing scales.

(Yamaha, seriously...why? This piano is car-priced.)

Love my N3 otherwise—cannot recommend the action highly enough. I just have it turned down most of the time smile

Philip

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#2416598 - 05/02/15 11:22 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: sullivang]
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 47
Flummoxed by the reports of clicks, by the way. I cannot reproduce them, no matter what I listen to the recordings on. frown

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#2416599 - 05/02/15 11:29 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By Philip_Johnston
Flummoxed by the reports of clicks, by the way. I cannot reproduce them, no matter what I listen to the recordings on. frown



Can you make the raw audio file available? I expect it to sound fine for everyone. We want the audio in it's most raw form - e.g WAV or AIFF etc.

Greg.
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#2416602 - 05/02/15 11:52 PM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Correction: I actually hear the clicks in both versions of Chrome, but still not in Internet Explorer. I am currently focussing just on the very first click, part way between 9 and 10 seconds. It sounds half way between a "click" and a "pop" - very easy to hear.

Versions:
Chrome: 42.0.2311.135 m (clicks audible)
Chrome Canary 44.0.2389.0 canary (64-bit) (clicks audible)
Internet Explorer: 11.0.9600.17728 (clicks NOT audible)

Greg.
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#2416605 - 05/03/15 12:23 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
FWIW, I used one of those dodgy YouTube to MP3 downloader sites to save a local MP3 copy, and it sounds fine in the Windows Media Player.

I then uploaded that MP3 to Soundcloud, and it sounds fine in both versions of Chrome and also I.E.
Link: (hope this is ok, Philip): https://soundcloud.com/sullivang/test
Naturally this test doesn't prove anything if the conversions that have taken place in the downloading and uploading actually removed the clicks, which I suppose is possible.

I've made the MP3 available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h8tqa6odlh2vzea/test.mp3?dl=0

It would still be better to have the raw audio.

Greg.
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#2416606 - 05/03/15 12:24 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: sullivang]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 841
Loc: USA
I'm using IE11 and I hear it. It actually sound very similar to my software piano clicking when latency setting is set too low, and my Mac couldn't keep up. If you could hear it on one browser but not on another, then it's a YouTube problem I suspect.
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#2416611 - 05/03/15 12:47 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
8 Octaves: Thanks. Do you hear it in the Soundcloud link I provided?
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#2416615 - 05/03/15 01:09 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: sullivang]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 841
Loc: USA
Hey thanks. I missed it, but went back to listen. No popping in the Soundcloud at all. Obviously it's not in the recording, so who knows why, but the Soundcloud version, not sure if it's the tool used to rip it from YT, sounds really thin. With the video portion gone, I focus even more in on the audio, and it's not something you would ever need to ask "does this sound real?" The sound is pretty bad. I can't imagine Garratan charging money for that kind of sound, so it's probably the result of over compression.

This peaks my interest though. I wish I could hear the original file. I think FLAC would be fine. I have a hard time tolerating classical piano on MP3/AAC. Compression destroys all the nuances.
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#2416618 - 05/03/15 01:15 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Thanks. Again, yes, we need the original audio, and I agree that FLAC should be ok, but I'd prefer totally raw just to eliminate as much processing as possible.

That MP3 has probably been converted from the already lossily compressed audio track in the original YT video, so it could well have less fidelity than the video, yes. I.e - I don't think the downloader simply rips out the raw audio track from the video. (there may be a way to do that - I haven't tried that yet) It may even under go ANOTHER conversion when uploaded to Soundcloud - not sure.

Greg.
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Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte

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#2416637 - 05/03/15 02:55 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I downloaded the video in, I think, the best quality available - 720p, and played it locally in Chrome - no clicks.

I then uploaded the same file back to YT, and the clicks are audible again. (I kept this link private)

Looks like a streaming problem.

I notice that the video is 25fps, which is the Aussie/Euro standard I think. It'd be worth investigating whether it's something to do with the video frame rate - try one at 30fps for kicks.

Greg.
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Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte

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#2416643 - 05/03/15 03:42 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 47
Many thanks to all those helping troubleshoot the clicks. I might try uploading again at 30fps, see if that helps.

Can anyone hear clicks on any of the other videos? Or is it just this latest one?

Philip

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#2416661 - 05/03/15 06:13 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Digitalguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 540
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By Philip_Johnston

Exactly what you identified—it's time for Yamaha to invest as much in sampling as they have in the (truly excellent) physical realities of the N3 keyboard.

Would love to see the next Yamaha N-series piano ship with a multi-terabyte hard drive preloaded with a sample library custom built by a dream team consortium of industry experts. 128 velocity layers for every one of the 88 notes for pinpoint dynamics, and true one-to-one correspondence with midi velocity levels. No compromises with pedalling. And all the heavy lifting done by the piano's onboard CPU, so that an ageing DAW setup can record it all without the desktop computer bursting into flames.

And when even that onboard sound library inevitably becomes obsolete? I shouldn't have to sell the otherwise perfectly usable (and still excellent) keyboard. I should be able to download new pianos or updates to the engine the way gamers download DLC.

The reality at the moment is very different. The recordings I'm making are only possible with the help of Virtual Instruments—the onboard Yamaha sounds are really only ok for learning notes, and practicing scales.

(Yamaha, seriously...why? This piano is car-priced.)

Love my N3 otherwise—cannot recommend the action highly enough. I just have it turned down most of the time smile

Philip


That's exactly what I had said around a year ago about a possible successor to the VPC1 (an onboard computer with a big SSD that could take on software piano). But that would have probably increased the cost too much for a controller, even the best one.
However, on such an expensive instrument that would make much more sense. But there would be issues with putting a very powerful CPU, as you might not want an active cooled one. And even if you put one with fans, like for gaming computers, at some point in a (distant) future, the CPU would become obsolete anyway, so it would not be "for life" as a real piano may be. Also, you do not want a piano that takes 2 minutes to turn on like the Kronos... (that would kill inspiration...)
That's why in the end I have come to the conclusion that the best solution at present would be going with a dedicated Surface pro 3, that can stay always on and loads even the largest libraries in a few seconds. And you are not limited to just yamaha. It has the advantage of being usable on the music rest to view scores in a decent size and piano software can be easily controlled with the surface pen (so no need to put a computer and mouse on your piano). And it's something that can be upgraded to more powerful versions in the future.
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#2416710 - 05/03/15 09:02 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 398
I can't hear the clicks, but that probably has to do with the fact that I've not yet heard the performance. I should probably do that first, and then add/substract my two cents regarding the -now infamous- clicks.

Update: I can only hear an excellent performance yet no clicks.

To those who are hearing the clicks: have you been able to confirm that the clicks occur at specific or random intervals within the time-line spectrum? If it's the latter (random), then I suppose it could simply be buffering, or other -browser related- issues that produce the alleged clicks. If it's the former, then I've no clue as to what the heck is going on with your computers/browsers/googlemagoogles!

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#2416711 - 05/03/15 09:03 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Pete14]
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 47
Originally Posted By Pete14
I can't hear the clicks, but that probably has to do with the fact that I've not yet heard the performance. I should probably do that first, and then add/substract my two cents regarding the -now infamous- clicks.



It's true Pete - the clicks disappear if you watch the video with the sound off smile

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#2416723 - 05/03/15 09:34 AM Re: "Real Enough" 5 | new CFX demo; Ravenscroft is next [Re: Philip_Johnston]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 398
Food for thought: If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound? grin

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