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#2416751 - 05/03/15 10:51 AM Is your SSD actually better????
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2131
Loc: Rocky Mountains
I'm considering upgrading my computer to an SSD. Couldn't afford it when I bought the computer. It's a Mac mini. I do have a 7200rpm hard drive now. I have IvoryII Grand Piano's now.

Do you have experience in changing to a SSD and having better performance?

In looking into this. I ran across a youtube video. The guy said he uses a utility called Tech Tool 8. He said his 7200rpm hard drive was fragmented on his Mac. This straightened that out and his performance is much greater. He's getting more voices now. Sounds much better. He thought this was much more important. Didn't seem to be concerned on SSD versus regular drive????
Edit: I do have to admit. His IvoryII AmericanD sounded beautiful. Considering it.


Edited by rnaple (05/03/15 10:54 AM)
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2416755 - 05/03/15 11:07 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
pold Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 68
How is that possible? A file is just a file, numbers. I can't see why a file on a ssd would be better than a file in a hard drive.


Edited by pold (05/03/15 11:08 AM)

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#2416756 - 05/03/15 11:13 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
toddy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2078
Loc: Portugal
Yes - it won't make any difference to the sound quality, obviously. It might affect performance, though. Are you having problems with performance (drop outs, glitches, delays) otherwise, why change anything?
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

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Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

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#2416763 - 05/03/15 11:25 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
ElmerJFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 441
The SSD read and write times are so much faster than spinning hard drives you will notice a difference in the performance of your Mac MINI immediately. The entire user interface will respond snappier, and applications will launch faster and respond faster. It's that big a difference. As far as your sampled piano instruments, it won't sound better, but it might perform better. SSD will load samples faster into ram if that's how your instrument does it and will also be quicker on streaming samples direct from disk if your instrument does it that way.

Talk to the guys at macsales.com (aka Other World Computing). They can recommend the right drive type for your model Mac and have kits so you can clone your old drive to your new one. Although, I always prefer installing the OS from scratch and then migrating other stuff over.

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#2416774 - 05/03/15 11:55 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: toddy]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2131
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By toddy
Yes - it won't make any difference to the sound quality, obviously. It might affect performance, though. Are you having problems with performance (drop outs, glitches, delays) otherwise, why change anything?


I did, in the past have an occasional glitch etc. I adjusted my Ivory. I'm running above that now. I do think, in my opinion. When I did this. The sound ended up better. Might just be phycological?
I just thought maybe I'd go ahead and get the SSD that I wanted in the first place.
I have to admit. Both stores I talked to locally kind of turned me off. One kept trying to tell me I had a problem with my computer. Other told me they couldn't clone the drive to a new one. I'd rather clone. Have some downloaded software. Like Reaper.

Also I'm getting a separate hard drive for backup. Spending money. Would like to spend on the AmericanD also.
I spent the money on that Utility I mentioned. I'm thinking I might be smartest to just use this to make sure everything is good. Defragment my drive. It will even warn me when a certain directory is getting close to running out of immediate close room. I'm liking what it's doing.

I know the prices on these drives will continue to come down. I have lots of room left on my drive. Does seem to be smartest to not upgrade to a SSD now? Like you said; if it's working why change?
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2416775 - 05/03/15 12:02 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1637
I have run Ivory both on my internal SSD as well as a SD chip and an external standard drive (USB 3.0).

I have not benchmarked anything, but I've not experienced latency issues or any real discernible difference among the three places where my Ivory library lives.

Right now I'm running it off a 128GB camera chip in the built-in chip slot because I don't feel like using up a significant amount of my primary drive space on my Macbook Air.

On the other hand, the SSD is an amazing speed increase in terms of general computing. My computer is on and running immediately. Restarts take mere seconds. But once Ivory is running, I don't notice a performance difference among the various places on which I've stored my Ivory library.
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#2416799 - 05/03/15 01:13 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
What is slower with a rotating disk is read access time. If whatever data you need access to or software you are running, loads entirely into memory, then disk access is no longer an issue. The first thing to look at for performance in the area being discussed is whether you can install more memory and whether the OS and software can effectively use it.

As far as samples sounding better, I really can't see that, but as others have mentioned, if you are experiencing performance issues such as dropouts or various glitches or latency issues, then it will be worthwhile to at least look into your options. An SSD is not a cure-all because there are other factors to consider such as IO speed of the chipset (how fast and efficiently data is transferred from storage device to memory), width of that data path (i.e. maybe, depending on the age of the computer, just upgrading the entire computer might be necessary), and similar factors.

I am suggesting here not that you go out and buy another computer, but that these types of issues can have several aspects beyond the storage media itself.

Tony
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#2416809 - 05/03/15 01:48 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
Digitalguy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 510
Loc: Switzerland
I have tested Ivory American in any kind of disk, 5400 HDD, 7200HDD, SD card, microSD, eMMC, USB2, USB3 (both with HDD and SSD attached), and various types of (Sata2 and 3) SSD. Well, Ivory performance depends on 2 things, CPU and disk speed. Less on RAM (as long as you have at least 2GB, better if 4). And on how many options and voices you enable. If you enable a lot of options and voices, even with a very good CPU and HDD or (micro)SD card, even a good one, you may have problems. The difference between 5400rpm and 7200rpm is pretty small. On an SSD (both internal or via USB3, including and SSD-like pen drive) you can turn up the specs a lot (provided that your CPU can follow...) and you will have no dropouts or glitches.... But if you keep the specs down even a 5400 HDD will be ok... If you don't want to change your internal drive and have USB 3, the best is to you an SSD pen drive like this http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-Transfer-SDCZ80-064G-GAM46-Version/dp/B00KT7DOSE or even faster (that's what I use) http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Flash-Voyager-128GB-CMFVYGTX3-128GB/dp/B00LJWSHW6/
You will only be able to exploit all the bandwidth of USB3 with a recent pc (at least 3rd gen, from 2012 on)
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2416822 - 05/03/15 02:17 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
Dependence on amount of RAM will depend on how the application handles the data. If the app loads all of the data into memory (or as much as available memory allows), then amount of memory could be at issue. If the app streams it in smaller buffers, then probably not an issue. Other than the empirical evidence mention by the previous poster, only the people who wrote the software will know how they did it. However, if those who use the particular software say amount of memory isn't an issue, that is totally believable. smile

Tony
_________________________
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#2416834 - 05/03/15 02:55 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
Digitalguy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 510
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By TonyB
Dependence on amount of RAM will depend on how the application handles the data. If the app loads all of the data into memory (or as much as available memory allows), then amount of memory could be at issue. If the app streams it in smaller buffers, then probably not an issue. Other than the empirical evidence mention by the previous poster, only the people who wrote the software will know how they did it. However, if those who use the particular software say amount of memory isn't an issue, that is totally believable. smile

Tony



You can set a parameter to small, medium or large RAM usage, depending on how much memory you have available. According to my tests I suggest using small with 2GB, medium with 4, and large above that.
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2416838 - 05/03/15 03:06 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: Digitalguy]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By Digitalguy

You can set a parameter to small, medium or large RAM usage, depending on how much memory you have available. According to my tests I suggest using small with 2GB, medium with 4, and large above that.


That seem like a good way to do it - make the general buffer usage tweakable for best performance on a given system. When I write software that has large memory requirements, I will determine how much memory I can have, and then take it. However, in consumer environments, that can be problematic since availability can change quite a bit depending on what the user is trying to do.

Tony
_________________________
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2416842 - 05/03/15 03:23 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.

_________________________
Jack

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#2416847 - 05/03/15 03:39 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: joflah]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.



SSDs have a finite life. The media can only take so many writes. SSDs have many more blocks than are available to the user. These are used to replace blocks as they go bad and for wear leveling. There is a wear leveling algorithm that is used to insure that a given block is not hammered on, wearing it out faster than other blocks, so that blocks are swapped around, evening out the number of writes per block, making the whole thing last longer. The more spare blocks available, the longer the typical life of a given SSD device.

Tony
_________________________
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#2416858 - 05/03/15 04:23 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
Frédéric L Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 175
Loc: France
With a 7200 rpm hard disk, I had some troubles, drops out... And worse a noise during a second as if Ivory compete with other programs to get its sample (I think it does: the antivirus come to my mind).

I have recently installed a SSD for my Ivory samples (no system on it) some days ago and reinstalled the system (because of a faulty hard drive). There are still some drops out, as if the beginning of my samples were swapped in the hard drive or something like this. But the behaviour of my system is far better.

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#2416895 - 05/03/15 07:06 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 640
Originally Posted By rnaple
I'm considering upgrading my computer to an SSD. Couldn't afford it when I bought the computer. It's a Mac mini. I do have a 7200rpm hard drive now. I have IvoryII Grand Piano's now.

Do you have experience in changing to a SSD and having better performance?



Here is an excerpt from a previous posting I did on this very subject. Get an SSD. (For everything, virtual pianos and everything else on your computers.) You will never go back to a mechanical drive.

---------

I previously ran Ivory II GP's standalone with a 128 sample buffer (44.1 kHz) and a 96 voice limit set on a 3.06 GHz Core 2 Duo iMac with the samples on a 7200 rpm Firewire 800 external disc drive. I never had "Slow Disk" messages, or the accompanying dropouts. When I added the Ivory II American Concert D, which includes a new version standalone app and AU Plug-ins, I started getting "Slow Disk" messages when the number of actual voices reached around 80 in number. It is very easy to generate 80 or more voices with this program. The samples are longer (5-8 secs in the program readout depending on the notes - the undamped top strings are the longest) on the American D than the previous Ivory II pianos, so more notes overlap even when released and there may be other differences in the newer version app as well. Bottom line, I had to increase my audio sample buffer [NOT a preload buffer] to 256 samples (or reduce the number of voices) to eliminate the "Slow Disk" messages and accompanying audio artifacts, neither of which I wanted to do. According to my Mac disk activity monitor the Firewire 800 HD was hitting about 30 MB/s (with 80 voices) when the "Slow Disk" messages appeared, but the maximum transfer rate of the Firewire 800 HD measured well over 80 MB/s (which is expected from FW 800 transfers). So I concluded the problem was not the FW800 transfer limit, but instead the random access time of the mechanical hard drive.

So I purchased a 256 GB SSD with an external FW800 (and USB 3) interface since the random access time of the SSD is negligible, approximately 0.1 mS. Once I moved the samples to the SSD it solved the issue entirely. I was able to run up over 250 voices according to the Ivory II readout (using the sustain pedal and pressing an unrealistic number of keys) before getting the "Slow Disk" message and artifacts using a 128 sample buffer. I bought the SSD with a USB 3 interface (which is about 5 times faster than FW800) - just in case the SSD limited by FW800 didn't solve the problem.

For my normal playing with the SSD I set the audio buffer to 64 samples (below that I could generate occasional ticks and pops from maxing out the CPU) and the maximum voices at 128. At 80-100 voices, which my normal playing generated, the transfer rate measured a maximum around 60 MB/s with no "Slow Disk" messages. The SSD still measured over 80 MB/s max due to Firewire 800, but Ivory II simply didn't need to go faster with my playing.

So I want to stress the original limitation was due to the random access time of the 7200 rpm disc (5400 rpm discs have even slower access times). That had limited the number of voices I could get with a 128 sample buffer and forced me to a 256 sample buffer. With the faster random access SSD, still using the same FW800 interface, I could reduce the buffer to 64 samples and increase the voices to 128 (that was an arbitrary choice over the max voices I needed and I'm not sure of the max number of voices I could have used with the 64 sample buffer, but I got over 250 voices with a 128 sample buffer).
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Macy
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Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2416901 - 05/03/15 07:34 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: Macy]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 781
Loc: USA
Hard drive performance is typically measured in Input/Output Per Second or IOPS.

A typical 7200 rpm mechanical drive - 100 IOPS
A cheap typical SATA SSD drive - 10,000 IOPS

If you have a lot of data you need to move all the time from disk to memory, like a sample library, it doesn't take an engineer to understand why you should use SSD.
_________________________
La musica non è mai finita, solo abbandonata.
RCM Level 6 | https://soundcloud.com/8octaves/


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#2416903 - 05/03/15 07:39 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
By the way, my comment about the finite life of SSD is not to indicate anyone should not by these, they are quite fast as has already been indicated. My caution is simply that you still need to backup your data as you would with rotating media. All these devices have finite life, and when such a device will fail is a prediction based on measured probabilities (i.e. we really don't know exactly...).

Tony
_________________________
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2416909 - 05/03/15 07:55 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
ElmerJFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 441
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Edited by ElmerJFudd (05/03/15 07:55 PM)

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#2416915 - 05/03/15 08:29 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 781
Loc: USA
If you are worried about SSD life, one thing that helps for software piano applications is that these applications are very READ heavy. Once the library is written into the storage, most of the time it is reading it out of the storage.

The thing that kills SSD is writing to the SSD, not reading from it. You could read from it all you want, but it has limited number of write cycles before a cell become stuck. So for software piano, it's almost a perfect SSD application because you hardly ever write anything to the SSD, especially if you have the SSD drive exclusively for software libraries and continue to use your spinning disk for everything else.
_________________________
La musica non è mai finita, solo abbandonata.
RCM Level 6 | https://soundcloud.com/8octaves/


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#2416922 - 05/03/15 09:02 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2131
Loc: Rocky Mountains
I sure appreciate all the replies. Very insightful stuff.

I found another Mac store in town. New one. They'll sell me a 500GB SSD installed, cloned, for ~$320.
I told him about problems I've uncovered in my present disk with this utility. He said don't worry. However you want to do the new HD. Talk it over with the tech. It's a one day installation.
I went ahead and bought a 1tb HD for backup. It's loading right now. Will take an hour.

Right now I'm lusting for how this will sound and perform. I'll hold off till next week to get the drive. Really want to add that AmericanD to my Ivory collection.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2416934 - 05/03/15 10:13 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony
_________________________
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2416989 - Yesterday at 06:14 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
Digitalguy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 510
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Yes, but the deterioration of SSDs is often overestimated. According to tests that have been done, with an average writing of 10GB per day (that is 300GB per month) even the TLC SDDs like the Samsung 840 EVO (that have the shortest lifespan) would last between 50 and 80 years... If you write twice or 3 times that much, divide the number by 2 or 3 etc. So even writing 100GB every day of the year (what average person does that?) would still give us 5 to 8 years and 2-3 times that (so 15-25 years) with MLC SSDs (like most SSDs are). So you will probably replace your computer much earlier. And you will change many dead HDD before an SSD dies of too much writing to it....
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2417004 - Yesterday at 08:06 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: Digitalguy]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By Digitalguy
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Yes, but the deterioration of SSDs is often overestimated. According to tests that have been done, with an average writing of 10GB per day (that is 300GB per month) even the TLC SDDs like the Samsung 840 EVO (that have the shortest lifespan) would last between 50 and 80 years... If you write twice or 3 times that much, divide the number by 2 or 3 etc. So even writing 100GB every day of the year (what average person does that?) would still give us 5 to 8 years and 2-3 times that (so 15-25 years) with MLC SSDs (like most SSDs are). So you will probably replace your computer much earlier. And you will change many dead HDD before an SSD dies of too much writing to it....


That is all well and good - except that SSDs still can and do fail. It is not my intention to go into all the testing, the firmware revisions, and all that is involved in what can happen during the life of the media. My point is simply, do the backups. There is no perfect media yet. Threads like this can go on and on as participants try to outdo each other in what they know. I have been around this stuff long enough to not really care about that anymore. I do care that people should not lose data unnecessarily. Despite all the numbers you have shown, and I am not contesting them, but instead saying that the media CAN fail. As long as there is that chance, one would do well to continue doing normal backups.

Tony
_________________________
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2417035 - Yesterday at 10:07 AM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
Digitalguy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 510
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By Digitalguy
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
This is true, but spinning drives die too. For more reasons than just wear and tear. Try dropping a standard platter based HD from table height. Do the same with an SSD. Result... more than likely the HD will exhibit the click of death. The SSD will be fine.

But back up, Yes yes, BAAACK UP! ha ha.


Of course rotating media dies. We all know that, but it certainly does not hurt to remind people of that. smile My concern is that people often think that SSD media is not subject to deterioration. I could go into a lot more detail because of my work experience using this media in critical applications, but I think the information in this thread is plenty already.

I have two i7 Ultrabooks, each with 256 GB SSD. These things are now going straight off PCMCIA rather than through a typical SATA-type interface. They ARE very fast. However, I am very careful to backup regularly.

Tony



Yes, but the deterioration of SSDs is often overestimated. According to tests that have been done, with an average writing of 10GB per day (that is 300GB per month) even the TLC SDDs like the Samsung 840 EVO (that have the shortest lifespan) would last between 50 and 80 years... If you write twice or 3 times that much, divide the number by 2 or 3 etc. So even writing 100GB every day of the year (what average person does that?) would still give us 5 to 8 years and 2-3 times that (so 15-25 years) with MLC SSDs (like most SSDs are). So you will probably replace your computer much earlier. And you will change many dead HDD before an SSD dies of too much writing to it....


That is all well and good - except that SSDs still can and do fail. It is not my intention to go into all the testing, the firmware revisions, and all that is involved in what can happen during the life of the media. My point is simply, do the backups. There is no perfect media yet. Threads like this can go on and on as participants try to outdo each other in what they know. I have been around this stuff long enough to not really care about that anymore. I do care that people should not lose data unnecessarily. Despite all the numbers you have shown, and I am not contesting them, but instead saying that the media CAN fail. As long as there is that chance, one would do well to continue doing normal backups.

Tony



Absolutely, anything can fail or simply be lost in a fire or theft, etc. Personally I back all my data (that are however stored in a separate drive) in the cloud (therefore in real time) and my OS drive periodically via a system image.
_________________________
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#2417094 - Yesterday at 01:22 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.


SSDs have a finite life.


So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.
_________________________
Jack

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#2417100 - Yesterday at 01:38 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: joflah]
TonyB Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 692
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By joflah
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.


SSDs have a finite life.


So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.


Not true. In testing and evaluating SSD for commercial critical applications, the test group saw many SSD failures, and no, the data is not recoverable any more than it is with rotating media. Those test were designed to cause the media to fail by pounding on it much harder than would happen in normal use, so I am not hollering that the sky is falling here. But I am refuting claims that these devices are bullet proof.

However, believe what you want and don't bother to back up.

I won't post on this anymore other than to say that I understand the frustration that luthiers have in the guitar groups regarding claims made by those who are not luthiers, professional working musicians about things said by those who are not involved in that, etc.

As long as people who read this thread get the idea that backups are still necessary, say what you want.

Tony
_________________________
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#2417128 - Yesterday at 03:00 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 372
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By joflah
Originally Posted By TonyB
Originally Posted By joflah
I use an SSD as the system drive, and an ordinary hard drive for backups of software and other such stuff.
The advantages, to me, are three:
1: zero acoustic noise (the non-SSD drive is off most of the time)
2: faster loading of scores, in the rare cases when the computer needs to be shut down rather than just sleep, and
3: no mechanical wear-out.


SSDs have a finite life.

So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.

Not true. In testing and evaluating SSD for commercial critical applications, the test group saw many SSD failures, and no, the data is not recoverable any more than it is with rotating media. Those test were designed to cause the media to fail by pounding on it much harder than would happen in normal use, so I am not hollering that the sky is falling here. But I am refuting claims that these devices are bullet proof.

Nobody said they were. At this stage in history, they are more reliable than mechanical hard drives, period. They are far more reliable than mechanical hard drives in applications that involve mostly reading.
Quote:

However, believe what you want and don't bother to back up.

Who said anything about not backing up? All critical information on my hard drives, on all six computers, is backed up daily, automatically, to an NAS. All non-critical items that aren't backed up daily, such as software pianos, exist on more than one hard drive. The most critical stuff is automatically encrypted and transmitted offsite once per week.
The point of having a more reliable drive is not avoiding backup, but avoiding the inconvenience of stopping work to recover from a failure.
Quote:

I won't post on this anymore other than to say that I understand the frustration that luthiers have in the guitar groups regarding claims made by those who are not luthiers, professional working musicians about things said by those who are not involved in that, etc.

So, you're a professional hard drive reliability tester? Is that what you're saying?
_________________________
Jack

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#2417134 - Yesterday at 03:30 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: TonyB]
ando Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 4025
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By TonyB
......
However, believe what you want and don't bother to back up.

......

As long as people who read this thread get the idea that backups are still necessary, say what you want.



This thread is not about backing up drives. Nobody is disputing the need to back up important data - regardless of the storage drive type. Drive reliability is relevant from an expense and inconvenience point of view, but backing up should be happening in any case, so it doesn't factor into this discussion.

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#2417153 - Yesterday at 04:45 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: joflah]
Digitalguy Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 510
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By joflah
So do mechanical hard drives. I've never had an SSD failure. Even if it became unable to write reliably, I believe the data on the drive would be recoverable, which is not the case when a mechanical hard drive crashes.


HDD do fail much more than SSDs, so 100% agree on this. However SSD can die completely, and be even less recoverable than HDDs at that point. Having said that, in the endurance tests I mentioned above, most of them gave signs of failures many terabytes before they completely failed. So, in most cases, you could recover your data, unless you really wanted to use up your disk till it completely died. Again, if you are an average user, you will probably never see one fail given the very long lifespan, but there are other, more important reasons, to backup anyway (theft, fire, earthquakes, viruses, you name it). If you are a business with intensive daily writing, you will probably use a high end SSD, that will last much more anyway. And you will definitely back-up often.
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2417155 - Yesterday at 05:08 PM Re: Is your SSD actually better???? [Re: rnaple]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4068
Loc: North Carolina
Instead of p***ing back and forth, let's recognize that there is no absolute best or worst. It always depends on the use case.

Want to drive fast? Get a Ferrari.
But do you live in New York? In Manhattan traffic a bicycle will outrun a Ferrari!
So it just depends on the situation.

I think it makes more sense to list the benefits of disk drive and SSDs (or of Ferraris and bicycles) ... and then leave it to the user to make a "best choice" for his circumstances.

Here's a start. Not complete by any means. Feel free to add and correct ...

Disk Drives
+ Cheaper per unit of storage
+ Standard issue on existing desktop/laptop computers
+ No write-life limitations
- Prone to crash with advanced age
- Can be noisy

SSD Drives
+ Totally silent
+ Very fast
- More expensive (but wait 'til next year!)
- Write-life limitations (but no read wearout)

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