 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
70 members (Barly, 1957, btcomm, brennbaer, Animisha, bobrunyan, 1200s, 36251, 13 invisible),
1,912
guests, and
351
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11
Junior Member
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11 |
Hello to everyone,
I've been reading these forums for a while and finally I decided to become a member.
I rented a piano for my friend which was delivered, she said that the piano was not in very good conditions.
She complained that the lower range notes were not in tune so I called the business and inquired about it.
To make a long story short, the business owner told me a lot of "crap" like they tuned the piano before delivery so the piano after 4 weeks will auto tune etc. etc..
Could anyone please summarize what are the steps, what the business shall do after the piano was delivered (tuning included in the price) and when?
I'm a bit upset because the rent price was the most expensive in the local market so I thought that I would get a good service.
I'm ready to charge back the credit card transaction, the only problem is the pianist who will loose precious time.
Thanks in advance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,202
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,202 |
It depends what the deal is that you signed. Read the small print!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571 |
First diagnose a possible cause of the tuning problem.
Is the piano an upright? If it is, uprights, although they have four casters, only sit on the back two, where the weight is concentrated, and most of the rest of the weight usually is carried by only one of the front casters.
Now, if, when it is tuned, most of the front weight is on one of the casters, then, when it is delivered, most of the front weight is on the other front caster, the frame will be twisted and the tuning problem that you describe will appear. Most modern uprights do this to some extent.
The test is to change the weight on the front castors. I do it by putting my knee under one ent of the keyboard and lifting the keybed by flexing my ankle. A shorter person may need to put their foot on a thick book or two. (anyone remember phone books?)
Lift one end, then the other while playing a fifth or octave across the break. (that is, with one note of the interval on the bass syringe goin from top left to bottom right and the other note on the strings going from top right to bottom left.
If liftin one corner or the other corrects or improves the tuning, therein lies the problem. Put something under the appropriate caster on order to transfer the weight until the next tuning or move the piano. I have been called to enough pianos where one caster is on the corner of a carpet or rug.
This is not an uncommon occurrence.
Try this before taking the matter further.
If its a grand, go back to square one.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11
Junior Member
|
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11 |
First diagnose a possible cause of the tuning problem.
Is the piano an upright? If it is, uprights, although they have four casters, only sit on the back two, where the weight is concentrated, and most of the rest of the weight usually is carried by only one of the front casters.
Now, if, when it is tuned, most of the front weight is on one of the casters, then, when it is delivered, most of the front weight is on the other front caster, the frame will be twisted and the tuning problem that you describe will appear. Most modern uprights do this to some extent.
The test is to change the weight on the front castors. I do it by putting my knee under one ent of the keyboard and lifting the keybed by flexing my ankle. A shorter person may need to put their foot on a thick book or two. (anyone remember phone books?)
Lift one end, then the other while playing a fifth or octave across the break. (that is, with one note of the interval on the bass syringe goin from top left to bottom right and the other note on the strings going from top right to bottom left.
If liftin one corner or the other corrects or improves the tuning, therein lies the problem. Put something under the appropriate caster on order to transfer the weight until the next tuning or move the piano. I have been called to enough pianos where one caster is on the corner of a carpet or rug.
This is not an uncommon occurrence.
Try this before taking the matter further.
If its a grand, go back to square one. Unfortunately I cannot try your suggestion because I live far away from where the piano is while the pianist, a lady, wouldn't be capable of doing it. But back to my question, what is the standard procedure for a rented piano? I guess that after delivery we need to wait 2-3 weeks then the piano should be tuned NOT the crap I was told by the shop owner.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864 |
David is right -- the issue here is what protocol you did agree to, not what may or may not be done by others. Overheard this morning: "I've given up all hope of having a better past." Best wishes to you and your pianist friend.
Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
But back to my question, what is the standard procedure for a rented piano?
I guess that after delivery we need to wait 2-3 weeks then the piano should be tuned NOT the crap I was told by the shop owner.
The answer is that there is no "standard procedure". It's case-by-case even when there may be a common practice by a given dealer. If you paid a bit more for rent, maybe a tuning was included. If it was a bargain, maybe not. But consider ... if somone would rent a guitar, they would not expect the store to tune it. Basic reality: stringed instruments -- whether guitar, violin, harp, cello or whatever -- need to be tuned. It's normally the job of the user to take care of tuning.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 195
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 195 |
But consider ... if somone would rent a guitar, they would not expect the store to tune it. Basic reality: stringed instruments -- whether guitar, violin, harp, cello or whatever -- need to be tuned. It's normally the job of the user to take care of tuning.
But, each of those instruments is inherently designed to be tuned before every use by the musician himself. A piano is most certainly not.
1986 Kawai GE-2 (5'7")
Casio PX-100 DP
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11
Junior Member
|
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11 |
If you paid a bit more for rent, maybe a tuning was included.
Yes to all, it's in my first post. But consider ... if somone would rent a guitar, they would not expect the store to tune it. Basic reality: stringed instruments -- whether guitar, violin, harp, cello or whatever -- need to be tuned. It's normally the job of the user to take care of tuning. Indeed it's but not for a piano.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,028
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,028 |
The only reason you are complaining about it is that is the piano needs tuning, you will have to pay for it or accept it the way that it is. Why should you expect someone else to pay for it unless tunings were specifically part of the contract. Yes, the dealer probably had a floor tuner tune the piano before delivery but after that, if you want it done, then it's up to you. You can choose whichever technician in whom you have the confidence. He or she may also be able to advise you as to which conditions may be affecting the tuning stability.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864 |
I continue to be puzzled: it sounds as if you rented a piano which was arranged to be, and was, tuned at the store prior to delivery. I don't see anything in your posts about having paid for a later tuning in your friend's home. Is what is bothering you the fact that the piano was tuned in the store but was noted to be out of tune after a truck ride to a new setting? Because, if so, this change in the tuning is to be expected. I would disregard the dealer's remarks except that he is correct that the piano will continue to adjust itself (and its tuning) over the first four to six weeks in the new setting, so tuning it before that time is not a good use of money. I second Bill's suggestion that you get your friend connected with a local technician who can tune and also advise her on piano care.
Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11
Junior Member
|
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11 |
I don't really understand why users with thousands of post on these forums insist on telling non sense.
Please read the first post before replaying so to avoid making this thread confusing.
Again! The piano was rented (at the highest fares) and tuning was included in the contract!
The shop owner said that they tuned the piano "before" delivery, now if you guys have some very very "little" knowledge, you would know that a piano shall "never" be tuned before delivery but after!
@Bill Bremmer RPT: I'm complaining for a valid reason, please read before accusing me, or best, avoid saying anything misleading.
@bellspiano: please refrain from making misleading statements and seconding someone else's wrong information!
A piano shall never be tuned before delivery, did you know that? If the shop over tuned before delivery, it means that they never run a shop in their life.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
Again! The piano was rented (at the highest fares) and tuning was included in the contract!
The shop owner said that they tuned the piano "before" delivery, now if you guys have some very very "little" knowledge, you would know that a piano shall "never" be tuned before delivery but after!
A piano shall never be tuned before delivery, did you know that? If the shop over tuned before delivery, it means that they never run a shop in their life.
Well, actually yes, pianos ARE tuned before delivery. Steinway does it. Many other reputable piano dealers do it. Of course, there are times when it is not the best policy, but the notion that pianos go out of tune when they are moved is old lore that is out of step with reality. The primary reality is that pianos go out of tune with changes in relative humidity -- which MAY happen in a move, particularly during heating season or when moving from different climatic areas. But if the RH at the ending location is the same as where it was tuned prior to delivery, it can be OK. What is certain is . . . 1) The piano does no know (or care) where it is or how far it has travelled. 2) The piano is built to hold tens of thousands of pounds of tension. A ride in a vehicle is not likely to disturb that rigidity. 3) The piano has a substantial mass that tends to minimize temperature swings. Just like when you shoot an elephant, it takes a long time for the body to cool down. Same with a piano. It takes longer than a quick trip across town to change temp enough to change the wood moisture content.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11
Junior Member
|
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11 |
The primary reality is that pianos go out of tune with changes in relative humidity -- which MAY happen in a move. I don't understand your point but it's like saying "if I drop a glass, it might break in pieces". Oh and previously you compared piano's tuning to a guitar, sure you still want to give advices? Mod please close this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,088
7000 Post Club Member
|
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,088 |
Luvepiano, you're just not happy with what you are hearing. You've asked people to answer a question, they've taken the time to do it, and you argue with everything they say.
There are some very good points here. It is standard practice to set up the piano , deliver it, let it settle in its new environment and then re-tune it.
And guess what--- it might go out of tune again in a week! It depends on so many factors - if you have it in a sunny room, if there is high humidity....
The fact is that most of the time the average pianist is playing with an instrument that has drifted from its tuning to some extent.
I can see you're frustrated, but it seems to me you're unfamiliar with acoustic pianos and that you aren't willing to listen to the perfectly good -and helpful information you've been given.
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/12291.png) 18 ABF Recitals, Order of the Red Dot European Piano Parties - Brussels, Lisbon, Lucern, Milan, Malaga, St. Goar Themed recitals: Grieg and Great American Songbook
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,677
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,677 |
I'd have to agree with casinitaly and the other posters as a group. The responses were respectful and spot-on.
The nature of acoustic pianos is that they need periodic tuning; some more often than others. If it's out of tune, arrange to have it tuned and move on. You just can't kick reality and not expect to get a sore toe.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 206
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 206 |
I used to do a lot of service for dealers- from around 1980 until the mid 1990's. While tuning the piano in the store before delivery and again after several weeks in the customer's home may be a common practice, it doesn't always happen that way. I've known of many instances when the dealer agreed only to tuning before delivery and after that the customer was on their own. This is not a moral issue - it is a contractual issue.
A piano will stay in "perfect" tune for only a very short time. A pianist with really good ears may need to have their piano tuned four to six times a year. This may sound extreme to some. but I've encountered Symphony musicians whose hearing is that sensitive.
Bottom line for the original poster is to read the contract. You seem to be assuming certain things about the dealer's responsibilities. Unless it is in writing...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11
Junior Member
|
|
OP
Junior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 11 |
Bottom line for the original poster is to read the contract. You seem to be assuming certain things about the dealer's responsibilities. Unless it is in writing...
You are the one who jumped to the conclusions without reading the thread same as others did so I'm not going to repeat my self for the lazy people. Perhaps you came here just to show your portfolio?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,677
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,677 |
Bottom line for the original poster is to read the contract. You seem to be assuming certain things about the dealer's responsibilities. Unless it is in writing...
You are the one who jumped to the conclusions without reading the thread same as others did so I'm not going to repeat my self for the lazy people. Perhaps you came here just to show your portfolio? I am confident that with your willingness to learn and your cheerful and humble disposition you are destined to get a lot of help from the technicians on the forum.
Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,174
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,174 |
The original question has been answered numerous times though it appears not to the OP's liking. At any rate, this threads course has been run.
Greg
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,386
Posts3,349,204
Members111,631
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
