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I propose you to judge by yourself : here are 2 records of a C4, velocity 64, default settings** :

http://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/piano/C4-vel64-AmericanConcertD.mp3

http://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/piano/C4-vel64-GermanConcertD.mp3

**Among the settings, I can find Pedal Noise, Key Noise but no Hammer Noise.

Thank you for the reply. Have to admit it doesn't show me a lot.
I am still a 'beginner'. I'm hoping to use a good Steinway to help me in learning. From my experience with the GermanD, it does have more touch to it than the others in Ivory. I very much play with touch. Teacher even commented on it.
I might just have to take the plunge on the AmericanD.

I noticed the lack of hammer noise setting. Gee.. Pianoteq has one. But ... no thanks...

Hi All,

And thanks for your input on this question... I probably should have prefaced my original post with the fact that I am not a sound engineer by any means. I just know what I like but cant always give a technical reason. For those of you with a similar background, I found this fantastic demo on youtube that compares all (most of?) the leading Steinway virtual pianos in their RAW form. There are three videos in total called the 'Ultimate Piano Shootout'. Its well worth a listen if you are not yet decided on which one you prefer... Here is the link https://youtu.be/gwJnyyNQ4hw

Don't let that test be your guide, just a starting place, but not really all that accurate!!

Agreed, Ivory American is one of the better all-around Steinway samples: a compromise between "playability", on the one hand, and "reasonably accurate piano sound," on the other.

But beware: Ivory American cannot be resold; True Keys American (Steinway) on the other hand, CAN be resold.

Also be advised that a much more accurate Steinway piano sound than any of the above mentioned Steinway samples is the "Orchestral Tools" Steinway sample. But it is a "scoring" piano sample, which means that its main goal is not playability but "fool-the-listener" sound quality. Inotherwords, you take the midi result of your performance on the Ivory American and play that midi file via the "Orchestral Tools" Steinway and you'll hear something quite a bit better sounding than the Ivory, or any other sampled Steinway on the market. But I would NEVER recommend the "Orchestral Tools" Steinway as a piano to-be-played. Useless for that.

That's the problem with the Steinway samples....the playable ones are a halfway house between "playable", on one hand, and "realistic sounding", on the other: not as playable as a really quick and tight sample like Pianoteq. But still more realistic sounding (to my ears) than Pianoteq.

Some people don't care hugely about the sonic aspect, they just a supremely playable sample. So Pianoteq is a no-brainer for them.

There's a third category, which applies to folks like me. I want the best sound in my samples, because I only ever use them for midi replay. For PLAYING, I'll use my lightweight Kawai ES 100. I just don't look for playability and accurate sound in the same package. At least, not in Steinway samples currently on the market.

I think the Yamaha piano samples are, in fact, just a little closer to the holy grail of playability plus super-accurate sound. Samples like the Production Grand Yamaha are, on a good system, extremely accurate copies of Yamaha Concert Grands, AND, they are still playable.

Not sure we're there yet with Steinway sampled pianos.

I have almost all virtual pianos, Ivory American D is the best Steinway piano vst. I play on real Steinway next to Ivory American D, and this is it, close as it gets. In my opinion, the best piano VST is, without question, VSL Vienna imperial. No one piano vst come close to VSL Vienna for anyone who wants to play the most realistic digital solo grand piano sound.
Second is Ivory American D, then Ivory German D, and then others, like Galaxy D, etc...

Just to be clear, are you saying VSL Vienna (a Bosendorfer sample) is the "best" to play, the "best" to to make a recording with or the best of both worlds: in other words, the Holy Grail?

In deference to Pianoteq, and to the better hardware keyboard samples (Kawai, Yamaha, Roland), these might not sound exactly like pianos, but they can definitely be more rewarding to play than most samples on the market!!!

I think you have to make the distinction really, really clear between the experience of "playing" usually with headphones or speakers that you trust or like, and just "listening" after the fact: the "does it sound like a recording of a real piano" test...

These are two totally different experiences.

Now I'm off to listen to the VSL Bos again. There was a lot of hype, but I couldn't imagine fooling good ears with the sound of the VSL Bos, at least, not on the material posted at their web site.

Still, it might be fun to play.

Maybe you overthink a little about piano vst. VSL vienna imperial is the most realistic piano compare to acoustic, to play, to hear. If you want something for mix or live stage with band, then most of people have different opinion what piano vst sounds the best for particular needs. Ivory American D is almost impossible to recognize as a sample when recording it in the mix. I don`t use piano vst for recording in the mix with other instruments, only solo recording, I am very pleased with VSL vienna, but also with Ivory American D. When I want to play solo live and want to enjoy especially for classical music, VSL vienna is my choice. I play them all on good different speakers, nothing sounds that full and realistic as VSL Vienna. Compare to that, Ivory American D lacking half of resonance and power, and feels empty on higher notes. Pianoteq have impressive technical capabilities, excellent for live stage with band, or recording with band, but for solo playing or recording it doesn`t sound like serious piano, and is nowhere near quality of sound VSL or Ivory.

"Overthinking" the purchase of a piano sample...????

No. No. No.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

p.s. VSL on their Bos sample...

"The most realistic sampled piano ever created."

Indeed.

I could not agree more.

The hype and the fantastic demos combine to give the impression that the product is the most fantastic sound ever.

Then, you take the plunge and buy it ...

Result ? Eh ... not bad ... but never quite as fantastic as you had hoped (expected ?).

I have a few of them and they each have their good points and bad points. None have ever surpassed my expectations.

And, to spend $100 is one thing ... but $500 ? That is quite another.

What we ought to do is a pianoworld piano sample "competition."

Take any midi file for solo piano that's publicly accessible and not copyrighted (Jazz, Rock, Classical, etc... doesn't matter) , and let's all take our best shot with it. Put our efforts up on Soundcloud or whatever. See which folks tend to prefer. Limit samples to Steinways, or maybe have no limits on sample type.

And you can mess with the midi file, if you need to, because every sample has different requirements. One midi file doesn't fit all. Just post the file when you're done with it. And post your sample type and settings, ....not right away, but once folks have had a chance to chime in.

Make it a blind test, in a way.

No measure of "playability", but a great measure of sound quality of different favorite samples "as recorded".

For example.... in the second URL below are TWO different piano samples playing the same prelude... #16...

I actually can't choose between them, but I can sure tell you what makes them different as piano samples!

What hype ? Fantastic demos ? I play them all, and this is results from what I hear, and that`s not only me. I dont know what are you looking for. Perfect sample piano ? That doesnt exist. Believe me, I want a real acoustic Steinway in my room, hard to get. I agree, VSL is expensive, but not expensive as some digital Yamaha grand piano in beautiful cabinet for 20.000 $ which I play, and still doesnt sound as acoustic (miles from them), and still doesnt sound even as VSL vienna for the difference in price. So you see, the price is relative. VSL vienna imperial and Ivory American D are the closest as it gets piano sample for me in the moment. If you find that something is much closer to acoustic, please tell me, I really want to know.

Everyone has their own personal "best ever" sample, including me.

Somebody come up with one or more public domain midi files, and let's start putting our money where our mouths are.

OK.. so the post asks for Steinway suggestions.

Here's a crudely short midi file... and three takes on three different samples.

The midi file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vw1ly7uyrbbgklk/test.MID?dl=0

The 3 sampled pianos

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant/sets/testing-steinway-and-yamaha-samples

Ivory American. Orchestral Tools. Production Grand.

That's 2 Steinways and one Yamaha (just for comparison's sake).

Added pinch of same convolution verb to each.

Normalized each to max level.

Mp3 128, so not high end sound.

Not blind. I say what the samples are!

Still... a start.

My own opinion? Ivory American? Top end is missing-in-action. Orchestral Grand: more top end, but still a little thin. The Production Grand Yamaha sounds just about perfect. I'll try a second go. Simply upping the velocity settings on the midi file might help the Ivory. But that's a big "might."

I think Orchestral might fair better with LOWER vel settings. Maybe even a little midi vel compression. Maybe this can be done via the sample settings on both Steinways. Alternatively, just compress the vel settings on the midi file. We DON'T want to do any audio compression, natch; that's totally stacking the deck.

Notice how the sample companies NEVER provide the midi files they use for their over-the-top "demos"?

That kinda stacks the deck from the outset, doesn't it?

Thanks for providing this comparison test, johnlewisgrant. Just to show how subjective this is, I kind of liked the Ivory American most, think it was better than the other two. While PG and OT sounded great, they both lacked the wood the ACD has, at lest in this test. What I usually find lacking from most sampled pianos - onboard and software alike, the ones from my own piano included - is this character, the wood.

Ivory American has "wood"... no question there. Exactly my view. I used it for about a year, and of course I still have it, because you can't re-sell it.

The midi file's there. So folks should take it. Alter it, if necessary to suit their sample of choice, and show us what they like.

It's a ruthlessly short and simple midi file. Which I like. Simplifies things. The razzle-dazzle midi files aren't necessarily the best place to start in comparing samples. Although you DO want to see, ultimately, how samples do with heavy material. No question there.

I'll have to listen to these takes on different speakers tomorrow. Can't be waking up the household. Right now I'm listening on Grado sr 225 Cans.

I think this sort of comparison suffers from the presence of too many variables.

Firstly, the MIDI file chosen.

Secondly, the settings on the piano software:
- Tone color setting
- Resonance setting
- Reverb setting
- Release samples
- Hammer noises
- Damper noises
- Pedal noises
- Tuning (stretch vs. equal)
- Velocity curve
- Stereo width

Some of these factors are very significant. And not all pianos have all of these settings.

So, when comparing piano A with piano B, what exactly would we be comparing?

Not playability...

But once you've got the MIDI file, you're away to the races.

And, of course, if you don't like the MIDI file, you post a beloved sample with a DIFFERENT midi file, AND--as you imply--with an accurate account of the settings used for the sample.

But you've got to provide the MIDI file: without it everyone's in the dark....

And the sample settings, too.

Here's an example....

A BOLD claim was made here that the VSL Bos was obviously the best sample. Fair enough.

Take the midi file I posted--or POST your own midi file--and your rendering of it with, in this case, the VSL Bos and show us what the sample can do.

JG (me) says.... hmmm... I think I can do better than that with the Ivory American!!! So I post MY version, and the MIDI file too, if I've altered it to suit the sample. Which is fair game totally... just post the midi file.

Post the midi file.

Post the midi file.

Post the midi file.

That's pretty interesting. I don't have VSL imperial but I have Ivory American, German, Italian, Vintage D and many others. And I tend to agree with you. The reason why I haven't bought the VSL is because, on acoustic pianos, I prefer the Steinway sound, and partly because of the price (however if an Ivory III American with even better sound and 100 velocity layers came out, I would buy even for over 500$/€, so budget is not a very strong argument).
I for instance bought Ravenscroft after hearing people saying it was the best sampled piano and didn't like it (I think that it might well be very well sampled but I probably don't like the sound of a Ravenscroft, especially the mid range).
There is another piano that many say it's probably the best, the Garritan CFX. But after the experience with Ravenscroft I have preferred not to buy it. Since you said you have almost all virtual pianos, do you have Ravenscroft and CFX? And if so, what is your opinion about their realism/sound?

I tend to agree with you Mac on this, and I would add that recording a midi file with a specific piano rather than another changes a lot, both in terms of interaction with the piano action and in terms of response to the sound (be it the internal sound or any virtual piano). Also, the way of translating the midi to audio can have a big impact. We once did a similar exercise and, with the same midi and sampled piano, came out with 2 very different results (don't remember who was the other person back then), which we could not explain...

give me the midi file for ANY of the online demos and all is clear....

all is easy....

with the midi file I can EASILY compare the VSL or any other sample to what I already own.

Why don't sample companies provide that necessary information?

So totally easy to do...

I think the answer's pretty clear..... they're afraid.....

of losing customers....

$$$$$$

Pianoteq, which is NOT my preference, actually provides the Midi info, at least, indirectly.

Good on them... no wonder they're making money.