Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum A question about sharps and flats

I have been reading Jan Swofford's biography of Beethoven. I think it is a great book, though there is a lot of musical analysis that is a bit beyond me. One thing, in particular, that has confused me is how on a few occasions he has drawn a distinction between (for instance) A sharp and B flat. For example he says "...but the fixed-tuning timpani insists that the A-sharp is really B-flat." Could someone explain what this means? They seem like the same note to me. Thanks, so much.

They're not the same notes. They're two notes that refer to the same pitch in an equal temperament tuning (like is common on modern pianos). In other tunings and with other instruments they can refer to slightly different pitches.

Fizikisto is right. If you want more mind-bending:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic

Thank you. I started to try to figure out those tuning methods some time ago, but will have to take another look. I can understand how it relates to other instruments, but regardless of how a piano is tuned, aren't G sharp and A flat still a single key?

Yes, on the piano G sharp and A flat are a single key. This is a compromise.

For a time some early keyboards were made with more black keys, e.g. two black keys between G and A, so that G sharp and A natural could be different pitches.

Not necessarily. There even are keyboard instruments that have different keys for flats and sharps.

Still? Very cool. Which instruments? Where would one typically encounter these instruments?

Still, for a normal keyboard instrument such as one will see 99.995% of the time, and such as BenS is almost surely asking about, the answer is "Yes, G sharp and A flat are the same key on the keyboard."

The notes are the same (generally speaking) They are enharmonic. The reason for the name change is due to the key signature. When playing a scale you follow the alphabetical sequence and no 2 letters should be the same. In F major scale there is a Bb rather than and A# otherwise the scale would read; F, G, A, A#, C, D, E, F rather than F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F.

A rather simplistic view, but that is basically why the black notes (sharps/flats) have 2 names.

But the question was actually about when people do make a distinction between A# and Bb - not the fact that on the piano with its fixed tuning they are considered the same.

A number of good explanations have been given. I'd like to throw in some other ideas. When you can adjust your pitch at will, there may be reasons to play a note a little bit sharp or flat, for musical effect - for example, to raise the 7th when it's about to go to the tonic, to give it more of an edge. Or to flatten a note. When playing with others, notes might be adjusted because of the harmonies. There is some leeway. Even if in theory maybe a Bb might be a bit flatter than an A# (I think that's the way it goes), in practice either note might be a bit sharper or flatter than what you might get in piano tuning.

In regards to the keyboards with a double manual so that you have a Bb key and an A# key - I think that was before the tuning that we have presently, because some key signatures would sound fabulous and others sounded horrendous. The tuning we have now is a compromise, so that no key signature sounds bad, but all of it is a bit "meh".

Yes these instruments still exist, for instance check here

http://www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&http://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/mean-split.html



I don't know if they build them like this today.

BTW on that page they also show why this is needed with an alternative circle of fifths

The OP question was. I was answering this later question:

It's all about the mathematics of frequency (sound wavelength) relationships. A good discussion of different temperaments can be found in Philip Ball's The Music Instinct: How Music Works and Why We Can' Do Without It. The entire book is an interesting read and covers a lot of territory.

When Bach wrote his Inventions and Sinfonias, the temperament in common use was the mean-tone temperament, thus only 15 inventions. The notes he had available to him were C, C#, D, Eb, F, F#, G, G#, A, Bb, and B. No Ab. His Well-Tempered Clavier made use of well-temperament, which was a reasonable compromise and made all keys possible.

Thanks, that looks like a great book. Apart from the question at hand, I am also very curious about what is it that draws humans to music and how is it that we developed the ability to produce it. I look forward to reading it (though there are still about 500 pages left in the Beethoven biography!).

You gave very complete answers. I was responding to someone else.