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I was ready to pull the trigger and buy a Casio PX350 (in my budget) after spending about 3 weeks researching and testing different DPs in the store. I went to the store to purchase it and gave the PX350 one last test, and then backed out. The PX350 has a very good action for a digital piano when just sitting down and playing (although it's a bit noisier than the Yamaha DGX650). However, something I hadn't concentrated on previously was dynamics as related to touch. The ability to go all the way from pianississimo (ppp) to fortississimo (fff), and I felt that the PX350 came up short. It seems like it basically has 3 levels (maybe 4). Soft, Medium and Loud. Once you reach Loud, no matter how hard you strike the keys, you won't produce any more volume. Is this other pianists' experience, and what do you think is the best digital piano for key dynamics (which I'm convinced should be listed separately from key action when reviewing DPs). Thanks!

The PX-350 generates MIDI velocities (for my playing) from about 10 to about 115. The total theoretically-available range is 1-127, so it's not bad.

There may be two things happening, here:

1. Did you try different settings for "Touch" on the PX-350?

The higher settings might be more to your liking. At high "Touch" settings, to reach high "MIDI velocity" (which is what drives the sound generator to change both volume and tone), you have to hit the keys harder. So you won't hit "maximum volume" when your fingers think they're only hitting the keys at a "Forte" level.

I found that I was more comfortable playing with "hard touch" (I think it's Touch=3) than with the default Touch (2, I think).

2. If you have a problem with the overall dynamic range of the PX-350 (from ppp to fff), the only "cure" I know is to use a software piano, like Pianoteq. That will let you adjust two things:

a) the overall dynamic range of the instrument -- "pp" to "ff" can be 30 dB, or 40 dB, or 60 dB.

b) the mapping between "MIDI velocity" and volume.

I don't think the PX-350 is "less expressive" than most other DP's -- but I don't think it's much better, either. It will be interesting to know what you find that's better.

To my knowledge the Casio PX350 has full midi capability. So, You can produce velocities from 0 to 127 (or 1 to 128?).
The 3 levels you refer are the settings that define the way the keyboard respond to your touch. For example, if "Loud" selected, to have an FFF you should hit the key harder than if "Soft" selected.
But in any case, the keyboards gives you at least 128 levels of midi velocities.
By the way, the Casio PX350 has the same keybed as the PX-5S. It is a fine DP.
Are you sure you have not set the Keyboard sensitivity to "off"?

Actually, the PX-350 has _two bytes_ of MIDI velocity information, so there are something over 10,000 _possible_ velocities.

But (in my own testing) I couldn't generate MIDI velocities over 115-120, with Touch=3 (hard), no matter how hard I hit the keys.

There are lots of DP's that don't deliver the full range of _possible_ MIDI velocities, when you actually play them.

One could understand that the PX350 generates only 115-120 values from 10,000. In fact the velocity from the note-on MIDI event is the most signifiant byte from the two.... the other byte (from a control change event) could have its value taking all values from 0 to 127. (I think it doesn't: the velocity is calculated taking the inverse of the time taken to move from a sensor to the next one... And the time resolution limits the number of possible values)

Key dynamics is always a tricky issue on a DP, as Charles rightly points out.
As to overall dynamics of the sound (Charles's #2 above), the Casio PX350 does rather well in dewster's analysis, with an overall dynamics of 57dB, see here:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1966202/Re:%20The%20DPBSD%20Project!.html#Post1966202

So part of the problem may be to learn to make use of this dynamics (adjusting the touch to your liking). Still, there may remain other problems: Not enough timbre variation from ppp to fff (which may give you the subjective impression of flat dynamics even if volume goes up), or a problematic touch curve, relating touch to sound in a less than optimal way.

Even software sounds may need quite some work before the dynamics is well adapted to your controller (something I quickly learned from using a VPC1 where you can select and edit different touch curves).

Finally there is the problem of unnatural, overstated dynamics - a problem I found in some Yamaha and Roland DPs. Actually even the 57dB of the Casio are MORE than you'd expect in an acoustic piano.

Some great information posted by you. Thanks very much with special thanks to Charles who may have ascertained the issue immediately. Just to be clear to everybody, I am talking about key dynamics, that is how little or how much volume you get in response to striking the keys with different amounts of pressure, while on a single setting.
Now that setting can be whatever as far as I'm concerned and Charles has pointed out it probably is just a matter of adjusting the touch sensitivity control. Although I have had acoustic pianos all my life, I am a novice with digital pianos, and only have tested them in the stores at whatever setting they happened to be on. I was concerned, because much of the classical music, which I like to play, requires an extensive range of dynamics without having to stop in the middle of the piece to adjust settings. I will take Charles word that I just need to get them set correctly in the first place. Most of you seem to think the PX350 is a reasonably good DP, and that is encouraging. Anyone have any suggestions for how I can go about familiarizing myself with how to use the controls/setting/features available for digital pianos in general and the Casio PX350 in particular?
Thanks for your help!
Mace

1. Get a good set of headphones, and use them for testing. See old "Which headphone?" threads for suggestions. All low-priced DPs are limited by their amps & speakers. The sound generator may have lots of bass, but the speakers won't reproduce it.

2. All owner manuals are online. Figure out _in advance_ how to change the "touch" and "reverb" settings. That usually means getting into a "settings" menu --varies by brand & model.

You can also change "brightness" on many models.

3. Set the volume control so when you play "ff", the sound is _loud_. Work down from there, with your fingers, not the volume control.

IMHO the PX-350 sound generator is good for its class. It's not as good as a Roland RD-80,or Pianoteq. But it has substantial tonal range,as well as dynamic range.

Mace, if you are used to acoustic pianos and play classical repertoire on an advanced level a digital piano in the class of the Casio you are looking at may turn out to be unsatisfactory...

I agree with Maurus. Having learnt and played well made acoustics all my life, I had the most difficult struggle finding a digital piano that I believed was even meeting my minimal expectations of dynamics/touch. In that sense, the Casio might not meet all your expectations.

In the end I settled on a Yamaha Avant Grand but even so I am only 60% satisfied with the response/dynamics/touch when playing classical music. My expectations may be too high and unrealistic but digital pianos never really respond the same to a well adjusted, especially higher quality/build/action grand.

That said, in my opinion, some of the Roland digitals have a very wide dynamic range that may be more to your liking. I actually loved the sound and dynamic response of the Rolands but did not like the key action that much (felt shallow and overly light to me) but they may work well for you as many people on this forum love them and find the action quite similar to an acoustic.

Interesting. I `ve played many acoustics, not all of them good. Music teachers were always the worst, and the schools pianos always the best, particularly if they had sloping fronts. Didn`t much like the bigger grands, they always sounded out of tune. But a full size Bluthner at our old school was really good.

I`m firmly convinced that you get used to whatever you have. AND sometimes you will miss out on a better playing experience/capability purely because - it sounds different from what you`re used to!

Here endeth this morning`s lesson. Have fun!

I considered the PX-350 also, but have been looking at the PX-5S a lot lately. Will that be better in this regard or on the same plane? They're technically the same boards but maybe not the same internals.

I don't think your expectations are high at all. IMO, most digital pianos shouldn't have the word "piano" in their product category. "Hammer action keyboard with piano sample" describes the vast majority.

IMO, "digital piano" should be reserved for those with long key pivots, real mechanical escapement with mechanical advantage change (not just rubber flaps), excellent sympathetic resonance, and in general sound indistinguishable from the real thing - at least through good headphones.

The digitals with the best and most realistic touch response are Rolands with their partially modelled sound generation (SN), as opposed to purely sampled (and then electronically processed), like those from other brands.

You'll find that with other brands, you can quite easily reach the ceiling beyond which you cannot go in terms of timbral change (more so than actual dynamics - which is not really the issue with DPs -, but we perceive dynamic range partly through timbral change). If you never play at the extremes of dynamics, that might not bother you, but if you're used to acoustics and play classical, it would. It certainly bothered me, which was why I settled for a fully-modelled digital.

Changing the "touch" setting (on my Roland, it's called "Sound Lift") doesn't solve the problem in terms of the height of the ceiling - all that does is that you reach it more easily if you set it to high. Heavy-handed players will find that they're continually producing a ff sound at that setting, even if they're varying their degree of 'heavy-handedness', whereas on an acoustic, they'll get a sound ranging from loud to harsh to strident.......

FWIW, Interestingly, your upper limit is pretty much identical with what I find on my Casio CN-450, I'd struggle to get anything over 115 without it feeling just too much to reach. May be I need to work a bit more to develop those popeye forearms. Perhaps also a bit the case of beginner strength = lack of arm weight and good technique perhaps on my part

On the lower end I can get comfortably from about 5 and up though, thereabouts ... IIRC. I use the default touch setting on the Casio btw

Thanks again for all your comments. I agree that I may not be entirely happy with most DPs, especially in my budget. However, it's not a permanent or full-time replacement. I have taken a job which requirements me to work and stay in another city during the week, so I am looking for an adequate substitute to have at my apartment there. I am looking for reasonably good action, sound and the aforementioned dynamic range. Being somewhat portable is nice too, you never know, I might get a gig. Anyway, I have set a limit of about $1000, including a stand, pedal system and bench. The PX350 meets that easily with bundles online that include that and more for $850, which my local music store will match. The Yamaha DGX650 is also within that price range, but suffers a bit on the portability. I might stretch that to $1100 or $1200 if anyone knows of a model that will get me closer to what I have described. I don't think the action is great on the PX350, but it is better than some, and from what I've read just as good as the PX850. What other brands/models do you suggest?

With your background I consider the cheapest, but still half decent digital pianos to be the Yamaha P155/255, and Kawai ES7 (perhaps ES100 - I haven't played it, some people like it). In terms of action alone, the Yamahas (with GH action) get my vote in this price range. Roland's cheaper actions (as well as Yamaha's GHS) are too light IMO.