Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Lessons hampered: my digital piano vs. her acoustic piano

I've been taking piano lessons for about a year now, and enjoy them immensely, but hands-down the biggest stumbling block has been the enormous gulf between the [comparatively] heavy action of my teacher's Yamaha baby grand and my own Yamaha digital stage piano. Because of this, I find it nearly impossible to practice dynamics and other nuances of performance.

I live in an apartment and have no room (nor likely the patience of my neighbors) to invest in a true acoustic piano. Sadly, I can't seem to find a digital piano anywhere—and I've played the most expensive pro models available at local stores—that even APPROACHES true piano action. Every digital stage piano, despite the sales brochure, feels like a toy by comparison. I love digital pianos personally, but they're ruining my ability to truly learn dynamics the way a traditional piano student should.

In 2015 this must be a common problem, though. Digital keyboards are the only practical solution for many students, but so many teachers have true acoustics. Has anyone else found a solution for this? It's a drag to spend six days a week practicing on what is, essentially, a totally different instrument in tactile terms.

Thanks!

Try the Kawai MP11. Its action is by far the closest you'll get to the real thing. I go from it to my Steinway downstairs and tbs difference isnt so shocking that its bothersome. Same action also as the CA65 or CA95.

Check out the Kawaii VPC1

Also a good board, but needs a sound module or computer attached and the action is not as nice as the MP11, which has longer keysticks. Still, it is considerably cheaper.

Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. I'll definitely look for the Kawaii in particular tomorrow at some local shops that might have one.

Beyond that, is upgrading my keyboard the only solution? I'm still thinking about the average kid or teenager who wants to take piano lessons seriously, but can't drop $2800 on a professional stage piano. It's not so much an issue in my case, but I feel like piano teachers in general must have some solution to the issue of so many of their students not having access to an instrument that allows them to practice.

The funny thing is that I care so little about the guts of any stage piano for practice purposes; you'd think by now someone would have figured out a reasonable way to transplant the front end of an acoustic piano onto the back end of a digital one. Strange.

I'm wondering if you were to put your question to the Digital Forum - someone there might have a solution. There are many more Digital users there.

Even between playing different uprights, can mean a different feel. My teacher had a new YAMAHA grand with a fairly heavy action, as well as an elderly, but quite good upright. I had a new YAMAHA upright. Playing the 3 different pianos regularly helped me to be able to adapt to another quite well, but you do get used to your own piano.

What level are you playing at? You'll probably eventually get to a level where a Digital will hamper your progress.

Have you discussed the issue with your teacher - they might have a solution too?

I've rarely played Digital, but at one stage was playing one in Church. I found that I was better to cut the volume back a little so I had to play harder, otherwise I felt it was too soft and sensitive. But it was a quite old Digital.

The manufacturers are already transplanting the acoustic piano actions into digital keyboards. Those Kawai boards all have really nice key actions (VPC-1, MP11, MP7). The main issue for the player is how the key-to-sound connection feels; that is still the Holy Grail for digital keyboards. Make sure to try out a Roland V-Piano, I've enjoyed playing my friend's, it definitely has one of the better key-to-sound connections.

But I think if you really want to be able to play an acoustic piano, you need to find one to practice on. Maybe a local college, music school or local bar during off-hours?

For example, near my house there's an assisted living center that has a beautiful well kept Yamaha grand. They let me practice on it as long as I buy lunch at their café.

If you're on a budget, you also might want to check out the Casio PX-5S at $999. It has a great action and feature set, especially at that price.

Ok, I'm a teacher and this is how I see it:

I make it my business to know what's out there in terms of digitals, uprights and grands at various price points. That way I can present different options to parents based on their budget. I also know where to find grey market Yamahas and Kawais because they are a valid option.

It's not up to me to provide instruments myself or setup any kind of system to purchase pianos. I just provide pros and cons for different options according to circumstance. Beyond that, the student/ parents carry the responsibility to research, negotiate and purchase their piano. But no student of mine will leave my lesson confused about the issue and what the compromises are.

Also, as a teacher, it's my responsibility to make sure my piano has a light to medium touch so that it doesn't disadvantage students. Believe me, many teachers are very stingy when it comes to the maintenance of their own pianos. They will often be ridiculously heavy, noisy, out of tune, poor dampers. I consider this unacceptable - especially when they present their piano as a good instrument. Such teachers get used to their own piano and can compensate for its weaknesses, but it's very unfair on a student to learn on a heavy old action.

Yamaha has made the Avant Grand series, which is an acoustic grand action coupled to a digital sound module and speakers, but they are super expensive. I'd say the Kawais mentioned above are the best bet for those on a budget. If your teachers piano is still noticably harder to play than these, the problem is your teacher's piano and you'll probably have to change teacher because there is practically zero chance of a teacher admitting their piano is in bad shape. And you are right that you need to have your lesson piano and your home piano not too far apart in touch in order to progress well with your learning.

I completely understand your frustration. As I have grown older and more experienced, I've learned to become less dependent on the piano under my fingers and more dependent on the state of my mind and muscles. This is a really hard lesson to learn and I still mess it up lots, so I'm no guru.

However, what I've found is that if I don't like the piano, or it's a digital piano, I can go back to practising super slow (exceptionally slow - go slow and once you think you're going slow enough, go slower), and playing very very softly. Always with dynamic limitation there isn't enough contrast, and usually people try to compensate by working on the louder dynamics, but work in the ppp to mp range, using as little movement as possible, and you'll find that you are more relaxed, more sensitive and able to cope better with most pianos - even with the difference between a Yamaha stage piano and a grand.

This is not an absolute ideal solution to your particular problem, but it's something that will help you while you are waiting to upgrade.

I practised on the same (upright) piano(s) that I was having lessons on until I left high school, after which I had a new teacher (who was a concert pianist), who had two old grands at his home that he used for teaching.

It was a big shock - they were so heavy in action that I could barely get a forte out of them, and I kept playing ghost notes. I was practising on Yamaha uprights at the university music department's practice rooms then, which were not much different from all the uprights I'd played on previously. My teacher's pianos were my first experience of grands.

It took me several months to adapt, but adapt I did. I didn't own my own piano until 2010, and in the intervening decades since finishing with university, I played on just about anything I could get my hands on. The piano I bought is a high-end stage digital (Roland V-Piano) - I also live in a small apartment, and have neighbor problems, so I play exclusively with headphones. I have no problems switching from it to any other piano. I play a monthly recital on an old Bechstein 6-foot grand, make recordings for websites on Yamaha grands and also play Fazioli and Kawai grands frequently.

All those grands vary enormously in feel and action - the Bechstein is very light, shallow and 'loose', the Kawais and Yamahas are mostly heavier & 'stiffer' than the Faziolis. They don't resemble each other in action, but my digital is close enough to all of them not to require more than a minute or two to 'change gear' when switching - heavier than the Bechstein, about the same as the Faziolis with their sustain pedal depressed. (BTW, there's quite a difference between the key weights with pedal down compared to up in acoustics, but none in digitals - all digitals). There was a lovely Grotrian-Steinweg that I once played on in a showroom, which had an action almost identical to my digital's, but it's since been sold...... .

If you really want a heavier digital action, I believe Kawai makes it. Unless you go for the AvantGrands, which cost a fortune, and have actions which are heavier than that of any Yamaha grands I've ever played.....

That's what the Kawai VPC1 is - check it out. People seem really happy with it. It has a wooden action similar to that of a piano, and no knobs or buttons - very clean look.

By the way, I have a Yamaha CP33 and the very nice heavy action on it is about the same weight as that of my acoustic grand. You could probably pick up a used one for around $500, but think of it only as a controller because its native piano samples are really terrible in my opinion.

Before you take the plunge investing in a new instrument, make sure it is not a technique or experience problem (rather than an instrument problem). You'll find that many people without a lot of experience (myself included) have trouble transitioning from their own instrument to one they rarely play on.

Have you considered any of the Yamaha AvantGrand pianos? They're Yamaha's hybrid pianos which have all the sampled sounds of the CFX concert grand but with the action of a real piano.

I recently played the Yamaha AvantGrand NU1 which is the entry level hybrid piano. This one replicates the action of an upright piano but all other models about the NU1 have grand piano actions to them.

Since I've only played the NU1, I can't comment on the 'playability', if you will, of the other models with the grand action. However, what I can tell you is that I was pleasantly surprised by the action of the NU1. Out of all the digital pianos in the shop, it was the best I played. More so than the top of the range, all singing, all dancing Clavinovas which are double the price.

I would seriously consider looking at the Yamaha AvantGrands. I'd be interested to know what you make of them too. I haven't played the equivalent Kawai models but I'm sure they're good aswell.

Lots of kids starting out will have families that rent upright pianos for between 30-60 a month. This way, if the kid decides to try a few months and isn't that into it, the loss wouldn't be as significant as if the family bought a piano.

Also you might want to try checking the Yamaha AvantGrand series. I'm not going to say it's more realistic than the MP11 as I haven't tried that one but it does have modified hammers that mechanically are taken from the U1 upright and one of the C series Yamaha grands depending on which model you're looking at. The warning is the cheapest AV digital starts at ~4500 for the upright action, and ~6500 for the grand action.

I believe that heaviness of the action has little to do with practicing dynamics. My own piano plays very light yet I have no serious problems with dynamics on heavier pianos except - if anything it's easier to play SOFT on heavier pianos which helps dynamics. (but it's very tiring to play fast pieces, usually I need to slow down these)

I guess your problem with dynamics has more to do with the digital than with the action.

Maybe what is misleading you is that many DPs (certainly the Yamahas) go crazy soft without missing notes.



I feel the similar about digitals but I think for different reasons. I would not be playing if I had no acoustic. I also live in an apppartment.




I checked with the neighbours and nobody actually had a problem if I would play piano. And it was allowed by the letter. I did some room treatment and bought a relatively soft piano.

I'll add my beginner perspective. A good pianist will be able to adapt to a wide range of pianos. An average first year beginner isn't near that stage. More typical is five years before a digital piano starts to limit the serious beginner pianist, and then a lot of that is pedaling, texture and tone, not basic dynamics.

Throwing money at the problem is unlikely to solve it. Different acoustics can have very different personalities. How frustrating might it be to find out after spending $20,000 USD that it is the student and perhaps the teacher and not the piano that is the problem? Every modern digital allows a decent range of dynamics, though the pedaling and key length will be very different from a grand piano.

Have you asked your teacher about this? I'm sure many of the other students also have digitals. Many probably have pianos less nice than yours. A first year student usually isn't any where near approaching the potential limits of a decent modern digital piano. Basic dynamics are not one of the limitations. Subtle differences in sound, and resonance, especially when it comes to the pedal perhaps, but that is more likely technique for the 4th year and beyond for very good students, not early beginners.

The difference between your digital and your teacher's acoustic shouldn't make it impossible to practice dynamics. Unless your digital is not capable of dynamics you can practice them on it. If your digital has no dynamic variance then you can't practice dynamics but this has nothing to do with your teacher's piano.

What could be a problem is adjusting to your teacher's acoustic when you've been practicing on your digital.

This is very likely the real problem here. The OP should try a variety of acoustic pianos and see if it's just that the teacher's piano is in bad shape. A visit to a piano store with a good selection would be an easy way to do that.

I also have a Yamaha CP33, and no problem going back and forth between it an my old Knabe concert grand.

Has anyone tried both the Kawai VPC1 and the Yamaha NU1? There's a pretty big price difference, and I don't care about the speaker system or how it looks, just the feel of the action, control of dynamics, etc. Like others here, I'm having a hard time finding a VPC1 to play. Thanks!