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#2425384 - 05/27/15 08:14 AM Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth"
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 406
(pun intended) so; is there a method to this madness? I feel quite confident with bebop and what it entails so I thought I'd give this some serious thought. But I find it arbitrary, and the transcriptions I've made doesn't really reveal anything significant in terms of how to apply any "rules".
It feels like a whole different mindset then playing bebop. Which I guess it is. I'm also a bit baffled by how simple some of it seems when it's finally on paper.
Have anyone else tried to incorporate some of this in their playing later in their "career"? Up until now I have always avoided it cause I believed all it would achieve would have something in common with a really really sad copy of McCoy…
Input appreciated, cheers!

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#2425745 - 05/27/15 07:29 PM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
indigo_dave Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/17/12
Posts: 59
Klonk, can you list 4 or 5 songs/tunes that you have in mind. I'll try playing around with just about anything and see what happens. Are you simply talking about McCoy Tyner's style. Amazing but I'm not familiar with his stuff. But do you have some specifics you can give.

BTW, I just listened to "Cantelope Island" by HHancock. Nice inventive blues. I think I'll try playing along with the recording (link below).

https://youtu.be/8B1oIXGX0Io


Edited by indigo_dave (05/27/15 08:54 PM)
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/david-goethe/tracks

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#2425864 - Yesterday at 04:03 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Nahum Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 644
Loc: Israel
KlinkKlonk,what would you like to know exactly.My students asked a similar question to McCoy when he conducted masterclass in my Academy (group of only 10 students) . His answer was: "I know the same theory like all of you .. EVERYTHING WAS SHOWN ME ON PIANO BY COLTRANE HIMSELF ".Since then, theoretical thinking has made some progress...

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#2425924 - Yesterday at 07:58 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 830
Loc: Leicester, UK
Klink, here's a blog post I wrote about playing outside the changes.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2014/01/jazz-piano-going-outside.html

It doesn't really address your question in relation to MT. But it includes concrete examples from transcriptions and it does show ways of playing "outside" the chord changes.

Here's a transcription of McCoy Tyner playing Passion Dance. The solo is entirely over an Fsus chord so the transcription in essence shows how freely he plays over that chord. Find a few licks in it you particularly like and practice them in 12 keys. Some logic likely will emerge smile

Hope these resources help ...
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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#2425951 - Yesterday at 09:14 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Dfrankjazz Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 215
Loc: NYC
Nahum, can you elaborate on your statement about McCoy? Was he referring to his breakthrough quartal/penatonic way of playing..Coltrane showed him how to do this? One of McCoy's/Coltranes greatest records was something like "One Up, One Down"..McCoy turns the piano to dust on this..

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#2425964 - Yesterday at 09:50 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: indigo_dave]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 406
Originally Posted By indigo_dave
Klonk, can you list 4 or 5 songs/tunes that you have in mind. I'll try playing around with just about anything and see what happens. Are you simply talking about McCoy Tyner's style. Amazing but I'm not familiar with his stuff. But do you have some specifics you can give.

BTW, I just listened to "Cantelope Island" by HHancock. Nice inventive blues. I think I'll try playing along with the recording (link below).

https://youtu.be/8B1oIXGX0Io


Hi Dave, these two tunes e.g: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03juO5oS2gg and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvmJHprG_Fg

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#2425973 - Yesterday at 10:07 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Nahum Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 644
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By Dfrankjazz
Nahum, can you elaborate on your statement about McCoy? Was he referring to his breakthrough quartal/penatonic way of playing..Coltrane showed him how to do this?
Exactly! Chord luggage of Tyner we hear in Equinox.

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#2425974 - Yesterday at 10:07 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: Nahum]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 406
Originally Posted By Nahum
KlinkKlonk,what would you like to know exactly.My students asked a similar question to McCoy when he conducted masterclass in my Academy (group of only 10 students) . His answer was: "I know the same theory like all of you .. EVERYTHING WAS SHOWN ME ON PIANO BY COLTRANE HIMSELF ".Since then, theoretical thinking has made some progress...


Yea I guess it's a pretty vast subject. There seem to be two sides to modal playing . The tunes which features sections of "modal" chords for four or eight bars in which there aren't much sidestepping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6P4ckoHqlY. I took down this solo by Chick and he's basically just playing the changes relaying heavily on pentatonics without doing any side stepping. And then there's the tunes which consist of one or two chords (impressions, passion dance).
I understand the first concept of the playing on "Herzog", not so much the playing on passion dance et al.
The question is where, when and how to play outside the harmonies. Especially the "how"; It seems like some of it is based on what the left hand does (passions dance) but I must admit some of it seem pretty random and the lines doesn't sound that good when played in isolation.

I guess each tune has to be tackled differently. At some point I'd would like to be able to play "Impressions", "Passion Dance", "F - blues a'la Matrix" "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise" using these concepts, but it's a long way to go.

And it's not just the outside playing that needs work: I'm a novice with basic pentatonic. cell over all - I'm mostly in tertian territory.
I hope that made some sense.

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#2425976 - Yesterday at 10:10 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: Mark Polishook]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 406
Originally Posted By Mark Polishook
Klink, here's a blog post I wrote about playing outside the changes.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2014/01/jazz-piano-going-outside.html

It doesn't really address your question in relation to MT. But it includes concrete examples from transcriptions and it does show ways of playing "outside" the chord changes.

Here's a transcription of McCoy Tyner playing Passion Dance. The solo is entirely over an Fsus chord so the transcription in essence shows how freely he plays over that chord. Find a few licks in it you particularly like and practice them in 12 keys. Some logic likely will emerge smile

Hope these resources help ...


Thank you Mark, I checked that out earlier in relation to the discussion about Paul Bley ATTYA a while back.

Quote:
Find a few licks in it you particularly like and practice them in 12 keys. Some logic likely will emerge smile


This is where I'm at. Just waiting for the logic bit…

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#2426054 - Yesterday at 01:57 PM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 830
Loc: Leicester, UK
Klink, I forget to add the Passion Dance transcription which is

http://www.colincampbelljazz.com/ajax/vi...&start_dl=1

So here's the beginning of MT's solo.



To make it easier to analyse, push it back one beat so it starts on 1 (the downbeat of the measure). Play it like that and you may see that it breaks into two chords - F7sus4 (one measure) followed by Cm7 (one measure).

That tells you that McCoy's art is about connecting things. But notice there's a rhythmic component to it. Which is we push the whole lick back to start on the downbeat ONLY to see more clearly how it breaks into F7sus4 followed by Cm7. (Someone might want to call that minor 7th chord a pentatonic scale ... well, ok, sure).

So that rhythmic component: McCoy starts the lick on beat 2 which means those two chords that follow each other (F7sus4 and Cm7) flow across the bar line. Meaning McCoy connects chords like that (or scales) one after another but he often hides the connection by shifting the chords or scales so they flow across the bar line. In other words the connections often aren't on downbeats. But they could be .....

If you want, play the Cm7 chord up a 1/2 step as C#-7. The lick will still work. Or play it down a half step as B-7. The lick will still work. If you harmonise the licks with corresponding chords voiced in 4ths (move up or down a 1/2 step as the case may be) you'll still be in the parameters of McCoy's style.

Some caveats:

1. Are there other ways to analyse this lick? YES. OF COURSE.

2. Did McCoy think of it like this? WHO KNOWS? Actually, the answer most likely is NO ... He didn't think about it. HE HEARD IT AND PLAYED IT.

3. Mileage may vary when we analyse transcriptions because some of the licks will be easy to explain and others will defy explanation. But that's the fun of it.

.... Another entirely different way to analyse this lick is to break it into groups of 3 and 2 eight notes. And go from there ....

But to be clear about analysis ... it comes after the fact. Because the music comes first. Usually in the moment theory won't help at all because the music goes by too fast to think about theory. So the gold standard is hearing the lick and playing it. The theory is an afterthought .... something we can see and use and try to get some advantage from it. But hearing this stuff ... that really is the key.

Hope this helps ... it's a way of looking at things. But it's definitely not the only way ..... Charlie Banacos used to call this style chord-on-chord. But that's a different discussion ....
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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#2426128 - Yesterday at 04:32 PM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Nahum Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 644
Loc: Israel
First we have to understand the phenomenon "play out" itself.

Outside of what? - Outside of chords, scales, tonality .
This phenomenon is not entirely new, even the very old, and is not associated with the occurrence of modal jazz, but with the drama in ancient Greece (although not direct manner) . It has been called: melodeclamation . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodeclamation

Melodeclamation ,of course, has become an integral part of the church service, and being aware of the strong religious feelings of Coltrane, we can assume that it affected him in terms of transform music intonations in intonation of ecstatic speech.Research European languages have shown that they do not contain the exact pitches and intervals , and their boundaries are blurred.

The following example, in which I allowed myself to turn a small fragment of a big speech of M.L.King to melodeclamation , demonstrates this very well:
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/4gqjaxbdaz5b7nf/I+have+a+dream+Blues.mp3

None of the sounds, which says MLC is not part of a single chord in the background. Why it does not prevent? I guess we perceive melodeclamation as the connection of two parallel processes, each containing its own logic related to the generality of time, generality of character,, intonations, groove ; that balances the lack of harmonic and tonal relationships.
Stage of transformation of musical melody in human speech in Western music falls at the beginning of the 20th century in the works of A. Schoenberg and A .Berg. Jazz took the same path up to 45 years later.
The question about the connection with pentatonic scale refers to musical traditions of art, where happens this transformation.


Edited by Nahum (Yesterday at 04:39 PM)

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#2426274 - Today at 02:26 AM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: Nahum]
Nahum Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 644
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By Nahum

None of the sounds, which says MLC .
Sorry, of course - MLK!
====================================================================
A small spot on the topic:


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#2426465 - Today at 01:04 PM Re: Pentatonics, side slipping, planing, modal and so "fourth" [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Nahum Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 644
Loc: Israel
Play outside can be within any harmonic system including a conventional tonality . Here chromatic transformation of a fragment of a solo Parker "Anthropology." The general logic hasn't changed, but it has become  similar to Eric Dolphy))



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