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Topic Options
#2427056 - 05/30/15 11:49 PM New Octave Survey
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I am very excited to announce that I have finally been able to program a web app that allows tuners to tune real piano notes on a computer.

It is not a real piano, but recordings of real piano strings.

I have been able to use Audacity to pitch shift recordings so that I have 22 different A3's that can be played against a fixed A4. The A3's are 0.5 cents apart which means the octave A3A4 can be tuned to a reasonable accuracy. I probably could get finer resolution but I don't know if we need it.

The app also allows us to test different inharmonicities. My journal article this month and one of my PTG classes is based on the premise that not all pianos sound good with the same size octaves. Your participation in this survey will help me to define better criteria for determining what octaves sound best with pianos of different inharmonicities.

Please help me by taking the short survey. You will be able to tune three different octaves by changing each A3 and then email me the results.

Comments welcomed.

Here is the link: http://howtotunepianos.com/three-octaves-survey/
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427058 - 05/31/15 12:02 AM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1641
Loc: KZ
I'm try test yours any octaves but it's have not sound when I pressed button
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2427060 - 05/31/15 12:12 AM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Try a different browser. It needs to be HTML5 compliant. (Also check your volume)

Go to https://html5test.com/

Look at 'Web Audio API' under the Audio section. It should say "Yes" or "Prefixed".
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427110 - 05/31/15 07:47 AM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2365
Loc: Maine
Without the checks I usually use this was an interesting exercise, but it was a bit like tuning blindfolded. Also I think I left a bit more of a roll in the octaves than would have been there once the internal 4th and 5th and whatever I could grab from outside the octave had been factored in.

'Interesting, Mark.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2427164 - 05/31/15 11:00 AM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: England
I don't see the point of this when octaves are not being sounded together - to my mind it is totally without any merit that is to do with the real world of piano tuning where one note is placed best to match so many other intervals.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2427209 - 05/31/15 12:55 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1603
Loc: Old Hangtown California
gave it a try but it seemed to me the only beating partial occured at a4 - made it a little odd- what do you do with a 2-1 electronic octave in the middle of keyboard.
interested to hear your result analysis and get a better idea what you are trying to do.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#2427217 - 05/31/15 01:21 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Johnkie, I respect your comment as it is one that has been made before in reference to these surveys I am creating.

Perhaps you will see the merit once you understand my perspective.

1. Many people tune A4 to the fork, then A3 to A4 before moving on.

2. Therefore, we have no direct interval reference for tuning A3A4 when A3 is the second note tuned.

3. Some people have criticized the RBI approach where we use check notes to set octaves as certain sizes re: 4:2 and 6:3. They say, "I just tune the octave clean and listen to the whole sound". Well, if there even is a "best" octave attainable without check notes, we should see a consensus with this test. So far, there isn't one.

4. In order to tune an A3A4 as accurately as possible, without any further refinement needed, we need to define just what is the best sounding octave.

5. I get extremely frustrated with having to retune any notes at all. Notwithstanding unavoidable drift, which I have found to be a lot less than many people report, I do not want to use any method that forces me to guess when I don't have to.

6. My goal and focus (obsession?) right now is to define an aural sequence that reduces as much as possible any guess work when tuning aurally. The result should be little or no revision needed once the temperament is finished. This is not a pipe dream. My efforts have resulted in my own tuning becoming much more accurate the first time through, and of course, that means faster.

So far, the tests have shown that:

1. There is no consensus on what the best octave is when just listening to it without checks.

2. Therefore, tuning octaves without checks should result in an unnecessary degree of imprecision; octaves that are not the same size.

3. Non consensus gives the feeling that octave sizes are not important, not critical, there are many sizes that are good enough. But without precision, the higher treble will suffer. The temperament must be tuned with precision; it is the foundation for a singing treble. Therefore, we need a more precise method than just listening to the whole sound of the octave, if we want to be precise.

I will soon post another web page that describes, what I believe is a better, more precise way to tune appropriate size beginning octaves like A3A4 and F3F4, using check notes, that produces "best" octaves for the particular piano we are tuning, according to its iH.

Basically it will be the same page, with F3A3, F3A4, A3C4, and C4A4 available.

Hope that gives you an idea of where I'm going.

FYI, I tried to tune best sounding octaves then save them as #10's.
All were from my Kawai grand.
Octave 1 was A3A4. This was tuned as a wide 4:2/narrow 6:3.
Octave 2 was made tuning G3 up to A4. This gave a pure 4:2/pure 6:3 as far as my ear could tell using the checks. (More matched B values)
Octave 3 was made tuning C#4 down to A3. Man that sounded bad, but surprisingly familiar! I'm sure we've all tuned a few like that. It was tuned as a pure 4:2 with narrow, and beating, 6:3.

I do have to remeasure to confirm that #10 is what I thought I tuned them as, but you get the idea of how the test was designed.

Best regards,

P.S. Much of my research is published in the June 2015 PTG Journal, but surprisingly, some of it is dated already as I have modified a few steps to make the method even more efficient.



Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (05/31/15 01:26 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427221 - 05/31/15 01:24 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Gene Nelson]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By Gene Nelson
gave it a try but it seemed to me the only beating partial occured at a4 - made it a little odd- what do you do with a 2-1 electronic octave in the middle of keyboard.
interested to hear your result analysis and get a better idea what you are trying to do.


It will be much easier to ascertain the size of the 4:2 and 6:3 when I add the F3A3, F3A4, A3C4, and C4A4.

The A5 and E6 are audible if you listen carefully. Especially with Octave #3.

I encourage you to record them and run them through a band pass filter, which I will eventually do and post for people to hear what aural tuner's hear.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427305 - 05/31/15 04:01 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22485
Loc: Oakland
It seems, when it works, that it has the same problem I am finding with all these electronic tuning devices: that the accuracy seems to be limited by the equipment it plays on. On my computer, it seems like I can change the number showing up without necessarily changing the way it sounds.

It is like Schnabel's comment when told that the DuoArt system had 16 levels of volume: "What a shame! I have 17."
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2427356 - 05/31/15 05:01 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 911
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
I felt like I was influences by some preconception about octave size because I knew which direction the octave sizes were going. Perhaps it would be better if the octave size changes were random but known only to you. Then there may be less bias in the way we listen.

For octaves 1 and 2 I could tolerate between 8 and 12. Octave 3 was more ambiguous because different partial matches seems to come into play more obviously.


Edited by Chris Leslie (05/31/15 05:02 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2427374 - 05/31/15 05:34 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: BDB]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By BDB
It seems, when it works, that it has the same problem I am finding with all these electronic tuning devices: that the accuracy seems to be limited by the equipment it plays on. On my computer, it seems like I can change the number showing up without necessarily changing the way it sounds.

It is like Schnabel's comment when told that the DuoArt system had 16 levels of volume: "What a shame! I have 17."


The notes change by 0.5 cents, the threshold of our hearing according to one of my studies, and confirmed by your comment.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427381 - 05/31/15 05:40 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Chris Leslie]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By Chris Leslie
I felt like I was influences by some preconception about octave size because I knew which direction the octave sizes were going. Perhaps it would be better if the octave size changes were random but known only to you. Then there may be less bias in the way we listen.

For octaves 1 and 2 I could tolerate between 8 and 12. Octave 3 was more ambiguous because different partial matches seems to come into play more obviously.


Your experience is common. My hypothesis is that when listening to only the octave, we are more tolerant. My position is that for a superior tuning, this tolerance is way too much, and we must have another way to create much higher precision. I use to think that a beatless octave was easily set using our ear and tuning directly with no checks or references. This survey proved me wrong. For precision, we need something more.

I designed the app to simulate actual tuning as much as possible. That's why the a3's progress.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427383 - 05/31/15 05:44 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1890
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Update. I measured all the checks for octave 1. A3 at #10 is confirmed as a pure 4:2/pure 6:3. If you listen carefully, one can discern a slight breath of a roll in a3#9 and a3#11. In my opinion, #10 is as beatless as possible. This is confirmed by the measurements of the checks.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2427393 - 05/31/15 06:01 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 911
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Yes, tuning by trying to listen to octaves without using checks or cross-references is very prone to inconsistencies.

Ever tried to fine tune a whole piano from a given temperament by using octaves only? I think some tuners do, or did in the past. That is how I was shown many years ago. These days I do that for quick pre-tuning when a minor pitch correction is needed.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2427476 - 05/31/15 11:05 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22485
Loc: Oakland
Except that my comment was that the sound is the same for several changes, not just one. It seems to be about 7 or 8.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2427553 - Yesterday at 08:50 AM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2365
Loc: Maine
It's interesting that after I ran through the set with some consumer headphones, I did it again later with my studio reference phones (Seinheiser Pro 280), and the numbers I would have chosen were different.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2427636 - Yesterday at 03:05 PM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Chris Leslie]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7935
Loc: France
Originally Posted By Chris Leslie
Yes, tuning by trying to listen to octaves without using checks or cross-references is very prone to inconsistencies.

Ever tried to fine tune a whole piano from a given temperament by using octaves only? I think some tuners do, or did in the past. That is how I was shown many years ago. These days I do that for quick pre-tuning when a minor pitch correction is needed.


Chris I do that all the time,

The surprise is that checks are necessary for a few notes but as they sound good for a given range they can be avoided

There is some "character" of the ocatave that allow enough precision and leave me with a neat progression of FBI, so if I play checks it is more in the difficult sections

NO comparative "checks" in fact, just listening to the intervals created, 5th 4th 3d etc

if one use comparative checks, the ear is perturbed and do not remind the octave as well for the next note.

I see the octave and all the intervals within it as an ensemble; it have a kind of coherence that is really precise enough


Edited by Olek (Yesterday at 03:07 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2427814 - Today at 06:23 AM Re: New Octave Survey [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7935
Loc: France
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By Chris Leslie
I felt like I was influences by some preconception about octave size because I knew which direction the octave sizes were going. Perhaps it would be better if the octave size changes were random but known only to you. Then there may be less bias in the way we listen.

For octaves 1 and 2 I could tolerate between 8 and 12. Octave 3 was more ambiguous because different partial matches seems to come into play more obviously.


Your experience is common. My hypothesis is that when listening to only the octave, we are more tolerant. My position is that for a superior tuning, this tolerance is way too much, and we must have another way to create much higher precision. I use to think that a beatless octave was easily set using our ear and tuning directly with no checks or references. This survey proved me wrong. For precision, we need something more.

I designed the app to simulate actual tuning as much as possible. That's why the a3's progress.


DO you deny that when tuning octaves the ear is listening to all available partials ? The octave is not a "rich" interval, My theory is that once one know how to tune different unisons , the octave is not different and can be weighted and tuned as precisely as one want
In low basses this may cause some trouble indeed, but even in treble and high treble a few checks of the double octave or the doubled 17th progression seem to be enough to maintain consistency

May be just listening or "musical "habits, I have no clue, but I can generally tune by octaves with good precision

that should work too tuning by tenths or by 5ths for instance but the octave being more neutral it is easier, and I prefer not to compromise them now (they are responsible for the highest consonance in the instrument so they must line well together)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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