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#2436815 - 06/29/15 07:22 PM Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 270
Loc: Usa
So, this past weekend, I had an opportunity to try out the Roland LX-15e and Yamaha CLP 585. The problem is that after trying the first, by the time I got to the second dealer, I already could not remember the tone and touch of the first to make any accurate comparison. Moreover, the environment of the different dealers made it very difficult to determine what accounted for the differences in tone. My impression was that the Yami was much brighter than the Roland using the CFX grand. But that's about all I can recall. Too bad I can't find them side by side to compare. frown

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#2436825 - 06/29/15 08:08 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4205
Loc: North Carolina
Yes. And I think most of us have the same wish.
Originally Posted By Grandman
Too bad I can't find them side by side to compare.

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#2436891 - 06/30/15 03:28 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 221
I've tried both at the same dealer for about 20 minutes each.

You are right in that the Yamaha is a lot brighter, however, I felt that it had a fairly good bass and lower mids in terms of depth of sound and 3D projection. The keys felt good in terms of the weight but the action was very tight on the particular unit I tried. However, I don't know if that's because it's just been opened and put on the floor or all of them are like that. If all of them were as tight as the one I tried, I would be a little bit concerned if your main goal is to play classical music, especially advanced repertoire. Finally, the Yamaha had much less of a timbral change from pp to ff than the Roland. I didn't find any problems with the keys bottoming out either.

For some reasons, I had gone into the store specially to try the LX-15e and the V-piano grand but I really really did not like the action of the LX-15e. It was extremely bouncy to me and the depth at which the notes sounded and how fast the key when down as I pressed it felt very unrealistic to me somehow. To give you an example, the depth and speed at which I could usually produce pp sounds by only gently barely tapping the strings with the hammer on an acoustic didn't work very well. So either the key didn't sound or instead of gradually going downwards in a smooth motion, it felt to me like it takes some initial pressure (more than usual) to get the key to move but after that it didn't go down smoothly but instead jerks downward and bounces back up. The plus side is that this piano doesn't have a bottoming out problem, it felt good when the key hit the bottom. Even the V-piano bottomed out much harder than the LX-15e.

In terms of sound I felt the bass to be a bit lacking with speakers. It does have excellent timbral change though and can be nice and mellow if played quietly. The sound does improve with quality headphones and sounds a bit more full with speakers with a better bass register. I only tried the piano sounds so I cannot comment on any other sounds included.

This is my own personal opinion only, I really wanted to like the LX-15e since it's a beautifully made instrument but I could not stand the action. In fact, trying a few different Rolands in the store I even liked the action of the F20 much better than the LX-15e.

I'm not sure what kind of music you play so my suggestion may be invalid depending on what sounds/functions you need but have you tried a V-piano or NU1/N1? These are good choices if action is one of your primary focuses.
_________________________
Yamaha Avant Grand N1, Yamaha CP300, Bosendorfer 290, Steingraeber A170

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#2436897 - 06/30/15 04:14 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
pv88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 3060
@Grandman,

I happen to own both the V-Piano & CLP-585 and can play them side by side.

V-Piano:

There is no doubt that the V-Piano has a superior and wider dynamic range as for playing "pp" to "ff" and the decay and pedal resonance is outstanding. I cannot say that I am particularly fond of the V-Piano's action as the keys bottom out too hard and it feels like a relatively short key stroke even though the keys respond very quickly and have good repetition as it appears to be a rather light action, overall. The preset sounds in the V-Piano are somewhat synthetic to my ears but will suffice if you happen to like the brighter tones as found in the "Silver" strings presets.

CLP-585:

The advantage of the CLP-585 is in the quality of the CFX and Bosendorfer samples which I prefer over the V-Piano's sounds and the nice weighted wooden action which feels reasonably realistic along with a very slight (almost nonexistent) escapement simulation. The CLP-585 cannot match the V-Piano as for the decay time and pedal sustain. Even so, the CLP-585 is more comfortable to play with a far softer and cushioned action and in this regard I like it better than the V-Piano since it is easier on the hands and wrists.

If you are comparing the CLP-585 to the Roland LX-15 then you will want to find out which piano feels the best as for the action and also determine the sounds you prefer. This can be a very subjective decision to make and it will be your choice in the end that matters most.

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#2436909 - 06/30/15 06:29 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Michiyo-Fir]
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 270
Loc: Usa
Originally Posted By Michiyo-Fir

I'm not sure what kind of music you play so my suggestion may be invalid depending on what sounds/functions you need but have you tried a V-piano or NU1/N1? These are good choices if action is one of your primary focuses.


Thank you for sharing your experience, Michiyo. I find it very helpful and greatly appreciate it. I did not consider the nu1 or n1 only because i've read they employ an upright action and i am looking for a grand action. Seeing that you have an n1, does it also come with the CFX sample?


Edited by Grandman (06/30/15 06:31 AM)

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#2436911 - 06/30/15 06:37 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: pv88]
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 270
Loc: Usa
Originally Posted By pv88
@Grandman,

I happen to own both the V-Piano & CLP-585 and can play them side by side.

V-Piano:

There is no doubt that the V-Piano has a superior and wider dynamic range as for playing "pp" to "ff" and the decay and pedal resonance is outstanding. I cannot say that I am particularly fond of the V-Piano's action as the keys bottom out too hard and it feels like a relatively short key stroke even though the keys respond very quickly and have good repetition as it appears to be a rather light action, overall. The preset sounds in the V-Piano are somewhat synthetic to my ears but will suffice if you happen to like the brighter tones as found in the "Silver" strings presets.

CLP-585:

The advantage of the CLP-585 is in the quality of the CFX and Bosendorfer samples which I prefer over the V-Piano's sounds and the nice weighted wooden action which feels reasonably realistic along with a very slight (almost nonexistent) escapement simulation. The CLP-585 cannot match the V-Piano as for the decay time and pedal sustain. Even so, the CLP-585 is more comfortable to play with a far softer and cushioned action and in this regard I like it better than the V-Piano since it is easier on the hands and wrists.

If you are comparing the CLP-585 to the Roland LX-15 then you will want to find out which piano feels the best as for the action and also determine the sounds you prefer. This can be a very subjective decision to make and it will be your choice in the end that matters most.


Thank you pv88. Do you find your v piano's bass lacking when compared to the 585? Which sound system do you prefer?

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#2436985 - 06/30/15 11:27 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
tabber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 30
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By Grandman

I did not consider the nu1 or n1 only because i've read they employ an upright action and i am looking for a grand action. Seeing that you have an n1, does it also come with the CFX sample?


The N1 is a grand action, the NU1 is an upright action. I would go so far as to say the action on the N1 was even better than the CA97 (and that is very high praise indeed). The sound wasnt quite as good though, I seem to remember it has some slightly older pre-CFX samples (CFIIIS ?), and is missing the Bosendorfer also. Its also a lot more expensive, and I have heard hybrids do require more maintenance.
_________________________
Kawai CA97 black


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#2437112 - 06/30/15 06:23 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
kapelli Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 540
Loc: Poland
I don't know how most of people here finds Yamaha brighter than Roland... While it is definitely more sweet, more round, bit darker and bit more realistic. Roland is sounding like it's lacking of the base of the note, I mean bass, like the all sound characteristic is taken from the middle and high tones. I find Rolands to be far brighter than Yamahas. There is nice comparison on YouTube between clp575 and hp508 as well, if someone interested.

But I think that I the Boesendorfer is the really spot on in today's market in regards to sound accuracy.

Of Course, Roland has its advantage with SN engine, but, still, I found the Boesendorfer the most enjoyable to play, and, most of all, the nicest one to my ears.

But each of us is different, so buy that one for which your heart bets the most.

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#2437114 - 06/30/15 06:36 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 270
Loc: Usa
What's interesting is that the Roland has a feature where you can "voice" each individual note on the piano, which affects the tone of bright vs mellow. On the Yami, I think you can voice all 88 keys together instead of individually. Moreover, all of these digitals have ambience features, which may also affect tone. I felt both actions were "bouncy", if that makes any sense. Kind of like hitting rubber at the bottom as opposed to the feel an acoustic grand. I could not discern any escapement mechanism on the Yami and I don't recall testing that on the Roland.


Edited by Grandman (06/30/15 06:37 PM)

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#2437116 - 06/30/15 06:45 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
pv88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 3060
Originally Posted By Grandman
Thank you pv88. Do you find your v piano's bass lacking when compared to the 585? Which sound system do you prefer?


There is no lack of bass or volume with the V-Piano:

I use a set of Klipsch 2.1 computer speakers with a subwoofer added since it was a relatively inexpensive way to add a very small set of speakers to the V-Piano as the the two satellites sit right on top of the V-Piano perfectly and the subwoofer was placed underneath the left side (or, bass end) of the piano. The V-Piano also sounds far better through high quality headphones rather than speakers as I am using Sennheiser HD-518's.

As for preference in sound and action both attributes have to go to the CLP-585 since its speakers are more realistic sounding and the samples have better quality than the V-Piano's modeling. If I were choosing between the CLP-585 & LX-15 it might be a tough call (since I haven't played the LX-15) although I would probably still take the CLP-585 due to the better cushioned action as all Roland's tend to bottom out hard.

The sounds are very good in the CLP-585 and there is plenty of bass and power if you turn it up somewhere between half and full volume. I cannot make your decision, although I tend to favor the CLP-585 over the V-Piano.

The CLP-585's sounds & action are very good.

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#2437140 - 06/30/15 09:36 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: kapelli]
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 221
Originally Posted By kapelli
But I think that I the Boesendorfer is the really spot on in today's market in regards to sound accuracy.

Of Course, Roland has its advantage with SN engine, but, still, I found the Boesendorfer the most enjoyable to play, and, most of all, the nicest one to my ears.


The Bosendorfer on the V-piano is the best one I've heard built into a digital (not software piano) to date. Although the timbral change is more than the Bosie 290 we have, and the sound is kind of muffled and hollow sounding when playing pp to mf, it is a better representation in my opinion than the Yamaha Bosendorfer sample.

I don't recall feeling a lack of bass in the V-piano grand either, only the LX-15e and that might have something to do with the built in speakers. I didn't get to try the normal (non-grand) V-piano as the store didn't have it.

In terms of the N1/NU1, the NU1 is based on an upright action, but has the CFX sample while the N1 is based on a grand action but has the CFIIIS sample. However, my opinion is that both the actions feel better than the V-piano. The V-piano is very fast and highly dynamic, maybe even more than an average acoustic piano, however, the keys bottom out moderately hard.

My opinion on the N1 is that the action is very good for a digital piano, one of the best I've tried, but the bass is lacking quite a lot through speakers too. It feels great, but doesn't sound that great through the built in speakers. Plus the treble is very sharp through speakers. However, wearing headphones, the piano sounds lovely with a strong, full bass and clear treble.


Edited by Michiyo-Fir (06/30/15 09:38 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha Avant Grand N1, Yamaha CP300, Bosendorfer 290, Steingraeber A170

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#2437196 - Yesterday at 04:16 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Michiyo-Fir]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2509
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By Michiyo-Fir
The Bosendorfer on the V-piano is the best one I've heard built into a digital (not software piano) to date.


Just goes to show how differently people hear things. I have long been a critic of the V-Piano but leaving all that aside what Roland laughably calls a Bosendorfer (Vintage 2) is nothing like any acoustic piano to my ears, least of all a Bosendorfer. I'd go so far as to say it's just about the most unusable patch ever put into a DP.

I like the Yamaha Bosie in recordings but didn't like it to play at all. I like the Nord Bosie in general but find it nasally in the mid-range and a bit dry in the bass (big and loud but not full sounding). I think for whatever reason(s) the Bosendorfer is a difficult thing to capture, or indeed model.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2437202 - Yesterday at 04:54 AM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 3060
Originally Posted By EssBrace
Originally Posted By Michiyo-Fir
The Bosendorfer on the V-piano is the best one I've heard built into a digital (not software piano) to date.


Just goes to show how differently people hear things. I have long been a critic of the V-Piano but leaving all that aside what Roland laughably calls a Bosendorfer (Vintage 2) is nothing like any acoustic piano to my ears, least of all a Bosendorfer. I'd go so far as to say it's just about the most unusable patch ever put into a DP.

I like the Yamaha Bosie in recordings but didn't like it to play at all. I like the Nord Bosie in general but find it nasally in the mid-range and a bit dry in the bass (big and loud but not full sounding). I think for whatever reason(s) the Bosendorfer is a difficult thing to capture, or indeed model.


I must admit you beat me to the punch (Steve) as I was going to comment on the very non-Bosendorfer-like quality of the "Vintage II" presets in the V-Piano as I think most of the sounds in the V are far too synthetic and the modeling will require a lot of revision before Roland can claim it sounds anywhere close to a real acoustic, be it a "Steinway" or "Bosendorfer."

I do happen to like the Bosendorfer samples in the CLP-585 which are somewhat improved over the V-Piano's presets although neither of them match the real deal. And, I don't have a Bosendorfer Imperial concert grand at home to compare!

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#2437319 - Yesterday at 12:27 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
kapelli Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 540
Loc: Poland
I was writing only about the Yamaha Boesendorfer. I like it more than CFX. And more than Roland. It is much more vibrant than the other digitals (I am talking about the base set-up).

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#2437358 - Yesterday at 12:54 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2509
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I found the Yamaha Bosendorfer 'fluffy' and somewhat muffled at low velocities. I wanted to love it but just couldn't when actually playing it. It was quite frustrating because pv88's recordings really sounded so good so I had very high hopes for it. To play I thought the CFX was very superior. It's odd that listening and playing gives such a different impression of a sound!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2437365 - Yesterday at 12:59 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: EssBrace]
peterws Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4359
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By EssBrace
It's odd that listening and playing gives such a different impression of a sound!


Listening is always a different experience to playing, even when you`re hearing the same thing. But in practice, listening involves many parameters, chief amongst which is the location . . . .and there are so many different samples in the Pianoteq (for example) voices which try to cater for this positional difference in sound.
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2437371 - Yesterday at 01:06 PM Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2509
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Well Peter my recent little play with Yamaha NU1, CLP-575 and Kawai CA-67 brought it home to me that relying on audio clips/demos etc, even high quality ones, is a very foolish thing to do. They have a part to play but I don't think it is wise to assume that your perception of the sound will remain the same as when you just heard an audio clip.

Clearly there is some quite complicated stuff going on in one's mind/memory etc because I swear that I simply perceive the sound to be different when playing compared to simply listening. The response of the sound to the input of the player must be a very significant factor. Maybe with the Yamaha Bosendorfer in particular I just didn't feel that it responded in a way that felt right and that had a marked effect on my perception of how it sounded.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2437896 - 15 minutes 19 seconds ago Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 270
Loc: Usa
Thanks for all the helpful responses. One thing I did not check when I tested these out. Does the Yamaha 585 contain EQ tone differences for the CFX and Bosendorfer samples? How may different grand piano tones are included?

Also, are the weight of the keys on the Roland individualized? In other words, do they get progressively lighter at treble range and heavier in the bass?

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#2437899 - 6 minutes 0 seconds ago Re: Roland LX-15e and Yami CLP 585 [Re: Grandman]
Frédéric L Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 205
Loc: France
According to the manual, the CLP 585 has 11 pianos : CFX Grand, Bösendorfer, Bright Grand, Mellow Grand, Ballad Grand, Warm Grand, UprightPiano, HonkyTonk Pf, Pop Grand, Jazz Grand, Rock Grand. (I don't count EPianos).

What do you mean by "EQ tone differences". I suppose the difference of the sound is just the difference of the sound between a CFX and a Bösendorfer... no need to add an EQ effect.
_________________________
Yamaha CLP150, Ivory II (American Concert D, Italian, 3 grand pianos, 4 uprights), Truekeys, Pianoteq

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