Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Shanks & flanges -- Renner, Abel or Tokiwa?

Mostly from what I read, a set of shanks and flanges from Renner, Abel, or Tokiwa will all be high quality parts and essentially interchangeable. However, I'm wondering if any of you could share your experience with these parts, and any minor differences you may have noticed. For instance, do you find that Renner tolerances are tighter than the other two? Are there slight wood quality differences? Are any more suited to different climates than the others?

WNG shanks don't care about the climate and are VERY consistent. Abel probably the least consistent. IMHO, and I've used them all. All makers have issues from time to time with pinning, friction,etc. I've had the least friction and consistency issues with the Wessell, Nickel and Gross composites.

I second Dales' choice of W,N&G shanks.

They offer much more flexibility in deriving hammer dimensions to match the weight of the hammers to the leverage of the action without the need for many key leads.

On my 1925 M&Hamlin BB, I have Tokiwa whippens and shanks. My tech has used them for years, and has always been impressed with their quality. They are doing a fine job on the M&H since 2007, and it's a player piano, getting a lot more use than your average piano.

That being said, we are going to put WN&G composite whippens and shanks in my newly acquired 7ft 1928 Steinway AR.

I use Renner, the wood is good, the pinning is consistent , since about 10 years they changed the method I think there are less variations then

The grand center pins have a slmall recess in their middle so they do ot move in the wood in time as it can happen with some grand shanks under large HR variations.

the bushing cloth is pure cashmere wool

I heard good comments on Tokiwa, from a friend, even received a sample, the parts look good indeed,

Keith Aikens (kpembrook on the forum) advised me (a hobbyist) on hammers, shanks and flanges for my 1954 Baldwin L.

He said WNG. Easy to work with, easy to install, and a dream to play.

best.advice.ever.

Forrest

disclaimer, he sells them, and yes, I bought from him. Considering the help and guidance he's given over the past three years, I will continue to listen to and support him.

After having issues with loose hammer heads a while ago with the WNG shanks,including some which were pre hung from WNG,I can't completely trust the super glue joint at the moment. Which is a shame.
I've never really liked the idea of using super glue,as my experience is that it lets go after some time.
However, hopefully my loose hammer experience is rare. They are amazingly consistent and I do really like them.
They are certainly more stable than wooden parts.
What's going on with the new flex options?-I thought the whole idea was that no flex was supposed to be better?

I find the rollers on Abel shanks very noisy and scratchy and don't like to use them.

I told them so, they say it is natural leather and it should not. It is probably difficult to obtain fird grade skin those days, hence the use of artificial leather.

Important correction,

Norbert Abel just wrote me that you can order shanks with escain or leather knuckles.

So the "scratchy" feel can be avoided.

I did not knew that...

What type of material is escain?

So far, I still haven't heard any complaints about Tokiwa.

I'm curious, does anyone know which piano manufacturers use Tokiwa parts in production?

It is a Polyurethane microfiber, with a nap.
Used by Yamaha, Renner, WnG I think.

Synthetic leather.

About Tokina, it is a small company I doubt they are used in actions, but they are discret, so I am not sure.

Thanks.Thats good to know!

Greetings,
I am in the middle of another WNG installation, glue on my fingernails. I am putting these actions in a university setting where heavy use is the norm. There are now five actions in service and I have not had a loose hammer. The oldest is now five years into its service life and has needed one hammer spaced and two traveled. Those were due to my poor papering protocol. I have since changed how I paper these things.

I miss the wood, because I knew what was happening. However, the performance advantage of the composite parts is too great not to learn how to successfully deal with it. It is a short curve, really.

With the CA bonding, there are ways to maximize the permanence of the joint, but it has to go on faith, at first. I did, and now have no qualms. I recently, on the advice of Ed McMorrow, changed my method of gluing. I modified his a little, but it seem to get me where I want to go more easily, accurately, and speedily. I drill my hammers, size the holes with thin CA, and let them dry. Final reaming is done on hardened wood fiber in the hole, and when I hang them, they are not so porous as raw wood. I like the idea of the immediate area around the joint being rendered impervious to moisture,so that the dimensional instability that the wood exhibits will occur outside a frozen "perimeter" of wood that is bonded around the carbon fiber shank.

Once all the hammers are snugly dry-fitted on their shanks, I can do a final travel and space,and then re-check position. Then, and this is the cool part, I wick thin CA into the bottom of the shank/hammer joint without touching or disturbing them, effectively freezing them in their alignment. About a full drop per hammer. The shanks are horizontal as I do this,and it is not uncommon to see the capillary action of the hammer core wood carry the CA far away from the joint. After all have their drop, I go drink a glass of water, come back, tip them all up, and wick two or three drops around the joint at the back. Works like a dream, no hurry up and get it positioned on the gel's setting time, etc.

ah, but I digress….
Regards,

I have had two slight "clicks" that I traced to insufficient glue between the longitudinal carbon fiber shank and the carbon reinforced nylon that is used for the fork. I simply wicked the thinnest super glue into the joint and it solved the problems.

I came to this after two re-pinning efforts which didn't solve the problem. So I took an educated guess that the hammer to shank joint was good, (since I had glued it), and the problem must be with the factory gluing. The result I think proved the theorem.

brillant ideas and comments from the 2 Ed's!

Thin CA, I suppose is not the qualities sold for wood gluing ?

Yes really great ideas, thanks very much.
Im definitely going to try that on the next one!-Love the idea of freezing them in place.

I just finished my first wng upright installation last week.
Very impressed!

Hi, do you mind posting pictures ?

Here is the web ppage for the ABel knuckles, for the shanks just say when ordering

http://abel-pianoparts.de/index.php?index=1&lng=en&menuid=48&ordner=shop-51

It's having a pro record and piano disc fitted at the moment,but will try to take some when it's back.

[color:#000099][quote=musicbased]After having issues with loose hammer heads a while ago with the WNG shanks,including some which were pre hung from WNG,I can't completely trust the super glue joint at the moment. Which is a shame.
I've never really liked the idea of using super glue,as my experience is that it lets go after some time.
However, hopefully my loose hammer experience is rare. They are amazingly consistent and I do really like them.
They are certainly more stable than wooden parts.
What's going on with the new flex options?-I thought the whole idea was that no flex was supposed to be better?[/color]

I think that the general idea of the "flex" shank is to give the customer a choice as to the 'whipping' effect available. That way the tech can tailor the feel if desired. I don't see the value for my purposes, but I can understand that some people might find it desirable. With the carbon fiber shanks, the flexibility can be controlled to much tighter tolerances than a set of wood shanks could exhibit. Since it isn't hard to do, why not give the end user more choices in customizing an action?