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#2445337 - 07/28/15 10:07 PM Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass!
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Ok, here it is. One pass using the Beat Speed Window sequence and measuring iH aurally.

http://howtotunepianos.com/new-tool-for-learning-how-to-tune-a-better-temperament/

Let me know what you think.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445341 - 07/28/15 10:37 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 257
Mark,

When I click the button to play the recording of each one of the single temperament notes, what am I listening to? Is it a recording of a single string or is it a three string unison? The reason I ask is G3, A3, A# 3, C4, C#4, D#4, and E4 all have an audible roll to my ears. F#3 sounds the cleanest to me.

Then, when I click the button to play the recordings of the chromatic intervals, what am I listening to? A pair of strings or six strings?
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2445356 - 07/29/15 12:01 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Each note is a trichord. E4 has the most roll to my ear but still less than 0.9 cents IMO.

The intervals are 6 strings.

The roll in the unisons do not affect the RBI. They are still very easy to hear as you can tell from the filtered recordings and I could easily see from the filtered waveforms when measuring.

However, you will hear B3E4 beating more than it should, but that is due to E4. That beat is still in the 1bps range so it doesn't destroy the P4 sound too much, IMO.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445458 - 07/29/15 10:20 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 257
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Let me know what you think.

I think you should use recordings of single strings to build your audio demonstrations of pedagogical topics in piano technology.
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2445474 - 07/29/15 11:41 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I tune double string unisons. I never listen to single strings so I never have them to record. Muting the piano after tuning could shift pitches up to 2 cents due to Weinreich.

I recorded this during an actual tuning, no fudging to make myself look better. I finished the temperament in one pass and thought, "Hmmm, sounds pretty good. Maybe I'll record it and measure it." I did this once before and it didn't come out as even, but I've been focusing on beat speed differences for a while now and believe my precision is improving. I got down to 1% on my beat speed difference test today.

However, for analysis, I require candidates to provide single string recordings.

Does the blooming impede your judgement of the progressions? And what about the presentation method? Do you think it would be useful as a tool for beginners or those wishing to improve their aural skills?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445480 - 07/29/15 11:57 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22706
Loc: Oakland
That seems to be an admission that you cannot tune clean unisons.
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Semipro Tech

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#2445489 - 07/29/15 12:21 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: BDB]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 777
Loc: England
Originally Posted By BDB
That seems to be an admission that you cannot tune clean unisons.


+1
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2445494 - 07/29/15 12:44 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 221
Loc: Omaha, NE
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Does the blooming impede your judgement of the progressions?


When viewing this as a pedagogical tool, presumably aimed at beginners (or at least beginners to aural tuning), then yes, the blooming unisons impede judgment. You want it to be as easy and clear as possible to isolate the beats, and even though its not how you tune in practice, isolating single strings makes it much easier for students to pick up on the theory. If you'd like to keep them as full 3-string unisons, then it would improve the effectiveness of your presentation, as well as the perception of your expertise, if the unisons were clean, clean, clean. smile

The presentation is fine, though I think you could probably skip the step of listening to each note on its own and just start with the progressions of M3, M6, etc.


Edited by adamp88 (07/29/15 12:45 PM)
_________________________
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2445507 - 07/29/15 01:22 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: adamp88]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 257
Originally Posted By adamp88
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Does the blooming impede your judgement of the progressions?

When viewing this as a pedagogical tool, presumably aimed at beginners (or at least beginners to aural tuning), then yes, the blooming unisons impede judgment. You want it to be as easy and clear as possible to isolate the beats, and even though its not how you tune in practice, isolating single strings makes it much easier for students to pick up on the theory. If you'd like to keep them as full 3-string unisons, then it would improve the effectiveness of your presentation, as well as the perception of your expertise, if the unisons were clean, clean, clean. smile

The presentation is fine, though I think you could probably skip the step of listening to each note on its own and just start with the progressions of M3, M6, etc.

So someone else gets it. I'm not crazy. Thank you Adam.

Mark, your unisons in the beginning of this demonstration are not good enough to make judgments about progressing intervals. I think the "blooming" is a horrible distraction, and I disagree with you that one can hear the "correct" beat speed through the six strings interacting. Certainly a beginner could not.

Mute them down to single strings, and I'd bet you'll find that the interval sequences are not as progressive as you think they are. They're not progressive even the way you've recorded them. The M3 and P5 progressions are obviously wrong. I'd say there are at least two pitches in your temperament that are need of correction before the sequences could be smoothed out to being nominally progressive.

The clickable buttons are nifty and all that, but the content is not of a quality that could make this useful as teaching tool. A beginner would get hopelessly lost in the tossed salad of beat speeds you're presenting there.

And as I recall, I had the same comment about assessing the quality of your octaves - that your less-than-optimal open unison makes an assessment of the partial matching impossible. Why do you insist on using open unisons to produce your audio demonstrations? That is not the way to be teaching beginners, in my opinion. It just adds an unnecessary level of complexity to pedagogical concepts that are already complicated enough to comprehend and achieve using single strings.


Edited by Chris Storch (07/29/15 01:24 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2445526 - 07/29/15 02:13 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: BDB]
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Boston, MA
I'm pretty much bewildered at the idea that someone who identifies himself as "RPT" is unsure of his unisons, an uncertainty with which others whom I respect agree. In my training, we had to tune rock-solid spot-on unisons before moving toward any sort of interval, including octaves. Learning to do this took most of us about a month. It was the foundation of listening and learning.
_________________________
Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA

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#2445529 - 07/29/15 02:20 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Ouch. I sense a lot of hostility here. No wonder nobody posts their temperaments.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445534 - 07/29/15 02:34 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 2004
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Ok, here it is. One pass using the Beat Speed Window sequence and measuring iH aurally.

http://howtotunepianos.com/new-tool-for-learning-how-to-tune-a-better-temperament/

Let me know what you think.

I measured the M3 bps from the two recordings (unfiltered and filtered). How come the "unfiltered" recording sounds like it was made with an Edison phonograph? Anyways here is what I measured:
Code:
M3   Unfiltered Filtered
FA   6.6        6.5
F#A# 6.6        6.5
GB   7.6        8.2
G#C  7.7        7.8
AC#  9.1        9.2
A#D  9.6        9.8
BD#  8.7        8.8
CE   10.1       10.1
C#F  10.1       10.2

GB is hard to nail down, it seems there are at least two beatspeeds mixed in, all the others I could clearly identify using a spectrogram.

Seems BD# is not progressive unfortunately. It would be good if someone else could find the time to measure the bps also.

Kees

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#2445540 - 07/29/15 02:41 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Ouch. I sense a lot of hostility here. No wonder nobody posts their temperaments.


I'm not sure why you keep posting audio of unisons that have audible rolls, though. If I was a customer and that's how you left my piano, I'd be thoroughly upset.

Also, who tunes only an F-F temperament? Since you earlier talked about matching the F-F and A-A octave sizes, why don't you post at least an F3-A4 temperament?

I know from experience as a teacher in my profession, you have to be a bit better than the students you're teaching. If you can't demonstrate clean unisons, then everything else is moot. Obsessing about beat speed progression is pointless if the individual notes don't sound pure (and all this hand wringing about "6 open strings" is too much. Olek regularly posts audio example of his work, as does Grandpianoman and both of them can clearly tune good unisons).

Paul.


Edited by pyropaul (07/29/15 03:35 PM)
Edit Reason: bad apostrophe

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#2445574 - 07/29/15 03:58 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445584 - 07/29/15 04:25 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


No-one is being hostile. You solicited feedback and were told that your unisons are not up to the task at hand. That's all.

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#2445641 - 07/29/15 07:02 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 248
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


You are just experiencing a bit of tough love.
_________________________
HW

"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu

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#2445649 - 07/29/15 07:26 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8251
Loc: France
I do not have the best equipment to listen, but my impression is that the fundamental are coupling, hence a moaning due to partials, that are often decoupled if the fundamental is the main focus.

that said I regularly leave unisons 'at the edge of a beat'

our ear is too selective it can be a trap when tuning, I find myself happy with unison since I realised I did 'forget 'to listen to the whole spectra , focusing on having much energy at the lowest pitch level)

if I want a warm a little dull tone , I now use an 'inverted smiley' the outer strings are a hair low contrarly to the usual way where we push the enveloppe toward high partials.
_________________________
Professional of the profession.

I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2445698 - 07/29/15 10:54 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2111
Loc: Mexico City
I have never been able to tune a good temperament in one pass (without corrections and refinements).

After hearing at your recordings I am reassured that you are not able to do that neither.

And I am not being hostile but objective.

Your unisons are not clean. Your M3s are not progressive. (Best noticed in the filtered recording).

I thought one of the advantages of your DSU (double string unison) technique was that you were "forced" to tune clean unisons, and by using this technique your ear became more and more perceptive. wasn't it?

I agree with Paul: a teacher must be a bit better than the students he's teaching.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2445708 - 07/29/15 11:43 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I agree with you and that is why I am always striving to become better at tuning.

The quality of the unisons are easily heard when playing SBI. The RBI tests prove a certain relationship and when that doesn't happen in the SBI, it is usually the unisons. Listen to the wildness of B3E4. That is due to the excessive roll in E4.

RBI can easily be heard with rolling unisons. The filtered wave form clearly shows beat speeds that slowly die away and then come back, but are easily discernible.

The M3's are best noticed as progressive in the measuring. Can't you see the graphs? Those are specific measurements of specific portions of each interval. Your ear is playing tricks on you. We can trick our ear into hearing what we want it to within a small band. You want to hear my beats speeds as not progressive, so you do. I have found portions of those intervals that when measured, progress. If you try, you will hear them too.

Most of this stuff I have already said. It just convinces me that no matter what I do, some people are not interested in discovering new ways to tune.

"Sir Francis, I see you have cut open your cadaver, and I know you say there are more nerves coming from the brain than the heart, and I can clearly see that there are indeed more nerves coming from the brain than the heart, and if Aristotle hadn't written the contrary, I might actually believe it." Paraphrased quote of a colleague of Sir Francis Bacon, the father of the scientific method, at an exhibition to show the modern nervous system of the human body.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445711 - 07/29/15 11:53 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: pyropaul]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By pyropaul
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


No-one is being hostile. You solicited feedback and were told that your unisons are not up to the task at hand. That's all.



I disagree and I've told you why. If you can counter my argument then do so. If you can't hear RBI from rolling unisons, you need to improve your ear because if you can't hear RBI beats from rolling unisons, you can't hear RBI beats. Maybe that's it. But you did listen to the filtered intervals, no? That sound, the sound of a clean beat, that's what I hear without the filtering. You see why I sense hostility? Maybe it's just frustration.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (07/29/15 11:55 PM)
Edit Reason: More modest.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445712 - 07/29/15 11:57 PM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Herr Weiss]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


You are just experiencing a bit of tough love.


I am inspired by your signature. Thanks.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445716 - 07/30/15 12:14 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1275
Loc: Québec, Canada
Sorry about that. To each his own.


Edited by accordeur (07/30/15 12:22 AM)
Edit Reason: was just ranting
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Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#2445721 - 07/30/15 12:47 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By pyropaul
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


No-one is being hostile. You solicited feedback and were told that your unisons are not up to the task at hand. That's all.



I disagree and I've told you why. If you can counter my argument then do so. If you can't hear RBI from rolling unisons, you need to improve your ear because if you can't hear RBI beats from rolling unisons, you can't hear RBI beats. Maybe that's it. But you did listen to the filtered intervals, no? That sound, the sound of a clean beat, that's what I hear without the filtering. You see why I sense hostility? Maybe it's just frustration.


Of course I can hear the beats, I don't need a bandpass filter for that. But I wonder if the reason you don't demonstrate clean unisons is because you have trouble tuning them? If I'm giving a demonstration of something, I want it to be the best it possibly can be - not so easy "live", but you have all the time you want to produce clean recordings. Listen to what Grandpianoman posts - if you can do a similar quality, it would make your message much more powerful. You have a tendency to be very defensive - that's not a positive trait in a teacher (I know what it's like - I was a prof in a university for a while and have taught hundreds of courses professionally - you just have to have a thick skin and be, well, professional).

You tout your double open string technique - lets hear a demonstration of how good it can be. Then you'll bolster your credibility.

Paul.

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#2445760 - 07/30/15 05:29 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8251
Loc: France
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
I tune double string unisons. I never listen to single strings so I never have them to record. Muting the piano after tuning could shift pitches up to 2 cents due to Weinreich.

I recorded this during an actual tuning, no fudging to make myself look better. I finished the temperament in one pass and thought, "Hmmm, sounds pretty good. Maybe I'll record it and measure it." I did this once before and it didn't come out as even, but I've been focusing on beat speed differences for a while now and believe my precision is improving. I got down to 1% on my beat speed difference test today.

However, for analysis, I require candidates to provide single string recordings.

Does the blooming impede your judgement of the progressions? And what about the presentation method? Do you think it would be useful as a tool for beginners or those wishing to improve their aural skills?



Marc I I'll not say about beat speed, if you measured them no reason not to trust you, but the unison have no attack, that make those beat sound unfocused.
Intervals must sound firm, "rooted", solid, this is mostly due to a good attack and projection tone, partially due to voicing,(that "show you the way" but if the voicing is 'not ideal, strings and hammers are old, you still can tune a strong attack by playing strong enough to have the "body " of the tone appearing. (only above a certain level, you feel at this time the energy in the keys).

I wonder if you confuse blooming and enveloppe building.

Anyway my opinion with the way you tube double open strings is that you're too much moving the pins back and forth, it cannot allow the optimal result which is :

All pins torqued similarly. (I leave to you the maths for mechanics with more or less long NSL, it may certainly be true, but I only can obtain firm and stable tone by tuning high only and from an evened tension, hence the repeated playing until I feel the string do not move anymore)

Just if you had more torqued pins, your partials would moan less.

I am suspecting you are so much focusing on beats, That it make loose a little the necessary point of view from a little farther.

Certainly the equality relation between different interval beat speed can be used, may be by being used to recognize their events. But then you should be capable of playing both intervals together, as they are supposed to beat the same.
And notice if the result is sounding solid or no.

Regards

Please accept that I'm not criticizing for pleasure, just trying to say something useful.

Even on a mediocre instrument, intervals and chords should sound "rooted", solid, name escape me for that concept.

A friend check the F3F4 ladder by playing all notes together, for instance.
Any interval, harmonious or no, will sound thick and robust with good unison.

Tuning with only one mute, or with the sustain pedal engaged, hides the meaning if the robustness of tone is not apprehended.

The tuned attack will generate clean beats, too may be not as stable in speed as expected, but ringing clear.



Edited by Olek (07/30/15 06:24 AM)
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2445771 - 07/30/15 07:00 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2134
This use of the word "bloom". These unisons might be perceived as bloom in some seats of some auditoria. but when close miked or heard up close, it is simply a whine. I'm not too sure a pianist appreciates excessive movement in a unison, particularly when playing under the direction of a conductor or in an otherwise collaborative rôle where waiting for the tone to develop is not an option.

A competent pianist can produce a tone that blooms by skilful timing of the sustain pedal, mostly including the shift pedal that throws the unstruck string out of phase, sometimes producing a deceptively huge sound in the right hands. This is often only available in the finest of pianos. A well set up NY does this really well, live

When my contract calls for "Tune and attend", a common request here for which triple tuning is charged, I will have the management find me an aisle seat on the right of the auditorium as we face the stage and towards the back. These are usually available since most piano audiences like to see the keyboard close up. I am often offered the seat of a professional critic who is not attending but they sit too far toward the front for my taste.

From here I can see the rear protrusion of the pedals on most pianos and all I have to do us look up when I hear a certain sound and see immediately how the pedals are being used.

I recommend regularly attending professional concerts to help complete the education of a tuner. Most managements would be delighted to offer their tuner a free seat if you ask. All states have a university or two with a music department giving regular concerts, mostly without charge. It's well worth the trouble. I hav travelled more than a couple of hundred miles to hear a legend in a certain concert hall, whether I'm paid or not although one of my ID cards will often secure me a free seat.
It is useful and enlightening to hear your own tuning/voicing as well as that of others from the vantage point of a listener particularly when played by a fine pianist.
What else could we possibly be aiming for??
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



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#2445797 - 07/30/15 08:43 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: pyropaul]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By pyropaul
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By pyropaul
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


No-one is being hostile. You solicited feedback and were told that your unisons are not up to the task at hand. That's all.



I disagree and I've told you why. If you can counter my argument then do so. If you can't hear RBI from rolling unisons, you need to improve your ear because if you can't hear RBI beats from rolling unisons, you can't hear RBI beats. Maybe that's it. But you did listen to the filtered intervals, no? That sound, the sound of a clean beat, that's what I hear without the filtering. You see why I sense hostility? Maybe it's just frustration.


Of course I can hear the beats, I don't need a bandpass filter for that. But I wonder if the reason you don't demonstrate clean unisons is because you have trouble tuning them? If I'm giving a demonstration of something, I want it to be the best it possibly can be - not so easy "live", but you have all the time you want to produce clean recordings. Listen to what Grandpianoman posts - if you can do a similar quality, it would make your message much more powerful. You have a tendency to be very defensive - that's not a positive trait in a teacher (I know what it's like - I was a prof in a university for a while and have taught hundreds of courses professionally - you just have to have a thick skin and be, well, professional).

You tout your double open string technique - lets hear a demonstration of how good it can be. Then you'll bolster your credibility.

Paul.

DSU took me two years to develop. You can see a video on my website but people have already criticized it.

Nobody had to convince me of its benefits. I understood right away the power of it.

As far as thin skin goes, you are misreading me. Negative, nonconstructive comments on this forum don't mean anything to me. I try to politely continue a presence for the 90% of people who just read these posts, and for the valuable constructive comments I receive.

Your request to demonstrate DSU is an example of a negative nonconstructive comment because 1) I've already done that. If you've visited my site, you see that plus multiple articles explaining its benefits and uses, and 2) it's a moot point to the subject of this thread.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445801 - 07/30/15 08:51 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Olek]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By Olek
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
I tune double string unisons. I never listen to single strings so I never have them to record. Muting the piano after tuning could shift pitches up to 2 cents due to Weinreich.

I recorded this during an actual tuning, no fudging to make myself look better. I finished the temperament in one pass and thought, "Hmmm, sounds pretty good. Maybe I'll record it and measure it." I did this once before and it didn't come out as even, but I've been focusing on beat speed differences for a while now and believe my precision is improving. I got down to 1% on my beat speed difference test today.

However, for analysis, I require candidates to provide single string recordings.

Does the blooming impede your judgement of the progressions? And what about the presentation method? Do you think it would be useful as a tool for beginners or those wishing to improve their aural skills?



Marc I I'll not say about beat speed, if you measured them no reason not to trust you, but the unison have no attack, that make those beat sound unfocused.
Intervals must sound firm, "rooted", solid, this is mostly due to a good attack and projection tone, partially due to voicing,(that "show you the way" but if the voicing is 'not ideal, strings and hammers are old, you still can tune a strong attack by playing strong enough to have the "body " of the tone appearing. (only above a certain level, you feel at this time the energy in the keys).

I wonder if you confuse blooming and enveloppe building.

Anyway my opinion with the way you tube double open strings is that you're too much moving the pins back and forth, it cannot allow the optimal result which is :

All pins torqued similarly. (I leave to you the maths for mechanics with more or less long NSL, it may certainly be true, but I only can obtain firm and stable tone by tuning high only and from an evened tension, hence the repeated playing until I feel the string do not move anymore)

Just if you had more torqued pins, your partials would moan less.

I am suspecting you are so much focusing on beats, That it make loose a little the necessary point of view from a little farther.

Certainly the equality relation between different interval beat speed can be used, may be by being used to recognize their events. But then you should be capable of playing both intervals together, as they are supposed to beat the same.
And notice if the result is sounding solid or no.

Regards

Please accept that I'm not criticizing for pleasure, just trying to say something useful.

Even on a mediocre instrument, intervals and chords should sound "rooted", solid, name escape me for that concept.

A friend check the F3F4 ladder by playing all notes together, for instance.
Any interval, harmonious or no, will sound thick and robust with good unison.

Tuning with only one mute, or with the sustain pedal engaged, hides the meaning if the robustness of tone is not apprehended.

The tuned attack will generate clean beats, too may be not as stable in speed as expected, but ringing clear.



I am interested in tuning the attack, but I find that when I tune the attack strong, the body of the sustain is weak or wavering. Comments?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2445803 - 07/30/15 08:55 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: rXd]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 2091
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By rXd
This use of the word "bloom". These unisons might be perceived as bloom in some seats of some auditoria. but when close miked or heard up close, it is simply a whine. I'm not too sure a pianist appreciates excessive movement in a unison, particularly when playing under the direction of a conductor or in an otherwise collaborative rôle where waiting for the tone to develop is not an option.

A competent pianist can produce a tone that blooms by skilful timing of the sustain pedal, mostly including the shift pedal that throws the unstruck string out of phase, sometimes producing a deceptively huge sound in the right hands. This is often only available in the finest of pianos. A well set up NY does this really well, live

When my contract calls for "Tune and attend", a common request here for which triple tuning is charged, I will have the management find me an aisle seat on the right of the auditorium as we face the stage and towards the back. These are usually available since most piano audiences like to see the keyboard close up. I am often offered the seat of a professional critic who is not attending but they sit too far toward the front for my taste.

From here I can see the rear protrusion of the pedals on most pianos and all I have to do us look up when I hear a certain sound and see immediately how the pedals are being used.

I recommend regularly attending professional concerts to help complete the education of a tuner. Most managements would be delighted to offer their tuner a free seat if you ask. All states have a university or two with a music department giving regular concerts, mostly without charge. It's well worth the trouble. I hav travelled more than a couple of hundred miles to hear a legend in a certain concert hall, whether I'm paid or not although one of my ID cards will often secure me a free seat.
It is useful and enlightening to hear your own tuning/voicing as well as that of others from the vantage point of a listener particularly when played by a fine pianist.
What else could we possibly be aiming for??


Agreed. The recent concert in Denver showed me the possible beauty of blooming unisons on a well voiced piano.

But let's not forget the essence of this thread - Simple objective methods for beginner/intermediate tuners.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2445807 - 07/30/15 09:06 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 257
Mark,

Imagine you're a beginning piano tuning student trying to learn temperament. You experience the frustration of trying to hear beats in an octave, a fourth, a fifth, and thirds and sixths. The frustration of just getting through the 13 notes only to find that none of the beat speeds is progressive. You've even got some intervals wrong-sided. Add to that you're struggling with your stability because your arm doesn't yet understand the fine motor skills necessary to keep everything in place. Add to that you're practicing on junk instruments or anything you can find...

And along comes your piano tuning instructor who says you should master unisons simultaneously. By the way, it only takes two years. My guess is the beginning piano tuner is not going to appreciate the "power of it" quite like you do.
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2445815 - 07/30/15 09:26 AM Re: Progressive Beat Speeds Tuned Aurally in One Pass! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By pyropaul
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By pyropaul
Originally Posted By Mark Cerisano, RPT
Way too much hostility here. I think some of you need to reread the forum rules again.


No-one is being hostile. You solicited feedback and were told that your unisons are not up to the task at hand. That's all.



I disagree and I've told you why. If you can counter my argument then do so. If you can't hear RBI from rolling unisons, you need to improve your ear because if you can't hear RBI beats from rolling unisons, you can't hear RBI beats. Maybe that's it. But you did listen to the filtered intervals, no? That sound, the sound of a clean beat, that's what I hear without the filtering. You see why I sense hostility? Maybe it's just frustration.


Of course I can hear the beats, I don't need a bandpass filter for that. But I wonder if the reason you don't demonstrate clean unisons is because you have trouble tuning them? If I'm giving a demonstration of something, I want it to be the best it possibly can be - not so easy "live", but you have all the time you want to produce clean recordings. Listen to what Grandpianoman posts - if you can do a similar quality, it would make your message much more powerful. You have a tendency to be very defensive - that's not a positive trait in a teacher (I know what it's like - I was a prof in a university for a while and have taught hundreds of courses professionally - you just have to have a thick skin and be, well, professional).

You tout your double open string technique - lets hear a demonstration of how good it can be. Then you'll bolster your credibility.

Paul.

DSU took me two years to develop. You can see a video on my website but people have already criticized it.

Nobody had to convince me of its benefits. I understood right away the power of it.

As far as thin skin goes, you are misreading me. Negative, nonconstructive comments on this forum don't mean anything to me. I try to politely continue a presence for the 90% of people who just read these posts, and for the valuable constructive comments I receive.

Your request to demonstrate DSU is an example of a negative nonconstructive comment because 1) I've already done that. If you've visited my site, you see that plus multiple articles explaining its benefits and uses, and 2) it's a moot point to the subject of this thread.


I've been to your site many times and have taken part in your quizzes on various topics. The best unisons were on the octave quiz, but I don't recall anywhere where you have audio examples of a full temperament, except for the recent one, where even you admit there is rolling.

Others have said that, in their opinion, it's not a moot point. This is negative constructive criticism, but your natural reaction is to attack and effectively say that you're right and others are missing the point. You do this in many of your posts, by the way. I already said that, in my opinion, your techniques will have more credibility if the examples you post of their application are exemplary - but even you have agreed they're not (even if it's not the main point of the topic at hand, which, in this case, is progressive beat speeds - though Kees's analysis shows that that is not the case either). As far as I recall, the only person ever to demonstrate truly progressive beat speeds was the Hamburg D owner who used Dirk's program. I seem to recall you poo-pooing the idea that any software uses entropic techniques, yet we have two examples of this now.

I admire your determination and desire to share what you've learned and look forward to reading the PTG article when it is open to all in October.

Paul.

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