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hi guys i have a question

im on a waltz called Blow the man down on the Alfreds book:

im noticing much more LH and RH independence is demanded in this song.

As im learning this, i feel as if im forcing my LH and RH to learn this song together, as opposed to separately - if that makes any sense.

Another way to phrase it is that im mechanically learning this song note by note LH and RH together. Going through my LH waltz while RH repeats through the top measures making sure they sound clean.

as opposed to controlling my LH and RH independently of one another.

Are LH and RH independence usually learnt in this way? Andrew I ask you! as I noticed you were soloing LH chords and RH melodies on youtube - did you find that this was the case for you? Is the independence eventually gained after mechanically learning in this way, or am i doing things incorrectly

After being stuck on this one for a while, I learned it by separating each beat into either LH, RH, or BOTH. It was a little bit awkward, but it worked. Don't know if this answers your question though.

To me, this is one of the hardest things to learn about playing a piano. At times, the hands have to work independently, yet in synchronization with each other. As M3G said, it takes practice and overcoming the awkwardness of it.

Kind of like chewing gum, rubbing your stomach and patting the top of your head all at the same time; or is it patting your stomach and rubbing the top of your head?

All the best!

Rick

Ha ha. When people ask me what's the difficulty of playing the piano I usually hand them a piece of paper and two pens and say now write your name and my name at the same time

This is my way of learning pieces.
Left hand alone,then the other hand and after quite some time when i know the whole piece by heart at both hand separeted, in sufficient speed,only after that i try to get them together note by note.
SSSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWWWWLLLLLYYYYYY

If some point is difficult i repeat the previous tab + 1 note and cycle them until it is done correctly.then i add one more note etc....

IT will be a pain in the ass, it will need time but believe me IT WILL work.

Spare a thought for guitarists and violinists particularly. And sax players, trumpeters et al . . . these have to coordinate in a different fashion maybe, but no less easier. And typists do the same . . .

I only remember doing LH and RH together, slowly as necessary. But some awkward bits need working on separately for sorting out which fingers go where . . .and in what order!

LOL! That's a good way to illustrate it.



That's a good way to start but it only works for a while. Once you have less straightforward rhythms (say triplets) then you can't really cut into equal time slices like that without it sounding really choppy. My approach is also to first look at individual beats but within a beat there might be several things to do with both the left and right. Still, my teacher tells me to "think in terms of entire measures/phrases" so guess I'm not there yet.

Based on my very limited experience I assume the process looks like this:
1) Learn in time slices of one beat (or less) where each hand does only one of: play, hold, rest.
2) Learn in time slices of one beat (or more) where you might do more than one of the above.
3) Make time slices larger until you can play entire phrases at once.

At the very beginning I was indeed doing 1 for every new piece but now (after 8 months) I usually start at 2 and do 1 only if it's very difficult. I suppose more advanced pianists can feel entire phrases the first time they play (they must if they can sight read complicated stuff).

@lionus: Practicing HT is never like practicing HS anyway. You don't just practice each hand separately and just put them together. So I think your approach is normal.

Yes all instruments have their own difficulties. Probably even something like the triangle has it's hurdles to cross.

Yup even triangle and tambourine have some elements that take quite a bit of practise.

Piano is interesting because it's an instrument engineered to make playing a sound as easy as humanly possible, but that means it allows for a huge complexity of music to be played.

Actually, typists DON'T do the same. On a standard keyboard (qwerty or dvorak) you never hit two or more keys at the same time; in fact, keyboards are designed to alternate hands between letters as much as possible. (Try it -- type a paragraph and note how often you have left-right-left-right. This is not a coincidence, folks.)

Chorded keyboards do exist, but they have never caught on in any significant way.

play Bach, as much as possible.

Yes I agree. The typewriter analogy would only be valid if someone was writing on two typewriters simultaneously.

In my experience playing drums and piano, independence is not either you have it or not. You don't magically gain it by mastering one thing.

It's practicing playing something new, and feeling awkward and slow and stupid and slowly getting better until it's automated (ie. you don't have to think about it anymore).

I can play over a simple F blues bass like this now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay5mIS1JHhE, but i started off just practising the bass line by itself and then adding 1 note to the bar, and then 2 notes, and then practising adding 2 notes in different ways for AGES. And then you try 3 note lines and notes in different patterns and so on and so on. Very gradually building on what what you're comfortable with.

I basically memorised 20 different right hand patterns playing the left hand exactly the same, but eventually with having a big enough bank of patterns, the patterns themselves fade away and you feel like you can play whatever you want.

I feel this is very similar to learning hand/foot independence with drums (which is a tough hurdle for beginner drummers too!).

I'm currently learning a Bach 2 part Invention in C major and it's a very similar process. It feels impossible and awkward at first but if you're patient with your brain and hands it WILL get easier and you can gradually add complexity (or in the case of a set piece like Bach - speed and smoothness and dynamics).

If it's of any help I covered this piece/issue here: Blow the Man Down

Andrew, you need to get some stability on your keyboard! I'd think all that movement is hindering your practice.

That little blues would be a challenge for me. Looks like fun.

Hi lionus, I remember learning Blow the Man Down HT because the LH helped keep the RH on beat in that song. I don't think that fosters good hand independence, because when you (well, me) learn HT I tend to play each hand at the same volume, when actually, the LH should be played a little softer, so the RH melody comes out more. And that does take hand independence. After I learned to play the song, my teacher had me go back and soften the LH...so I had to do a little remedial work.

+1

You're fighting that shaky stand -- and winning -- but it'll be a lot easier for you if you get something solid under your keyboard.

Another thing with that shaky stand -- You're looking at your hands all the time, because you have to in order to know where the keys are. To read music, you have to be able to keep your eyes on the page most of the time, which you won't be able to do with the keyboard wiggling around.

thanks guys

reading your responses made me certain that i was doing the right thing!

https://soundcloud.com/lionus/blowthemandown

here's some mucking around on the main measure, i added an extra bit too! im sure the fingering for the extra bit is wrong (is that extra dancing around the melody called a trill btw? it just popped up in my head to do it, it felt like a very mozart/classical era thing to do) was a really good workout on my 3-4-5 fingers!

I will keep in mind the LH/RH dynnamics too. I always had the same problem with guitar, keeping the melody louder than the harmony was always tough, i never did it properly. Yes that is another layer of independence even tougher! I'll work on it more for this song. And same with Oud which im horrible at, keeping the tremolo quieter than the melody was a fricken nightmare. Then again never practised it slowly

Great work lionus, sounds like you're well over your blow the man down hump.