Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum How to deal with parent during my "break"

I've had a student for 3 years now who is not overly demonstrative or energetic. She is content with working on 2 pieces plus scales and technique exercises. I've done everything I can to find music she enjoys, however, she is not familiar with any genres of music, so it is a matter of determining what kind of music appeals to her. After my last recital, the dad has been constantly coming to me with books of new music for me to go over. (he's already purchased half a dozen books for her, none of the songs are familiar to her). The problem is he does this AFTER her lesson (which I usually go over at least 5 minutes). I have the luxury of 1 short break this month after her lesson, and he has routinely approached me to come look over books for the student. Last week, he interrupted me when I am conversing with other teachers and asked me to look for some books for her (I work in a music store). I've emailed her parents and told them I encourage parental support, however, the she practices a total of 1 hour a week. I've already sent mass emails to all parents about practice requirements and how to practice ending with the fact that practice determines progress. I've asked the dad several times to come during the lesson, but he never wants to "take time from her lesson." Rather, he thinks that my break time should be spent doing this. I spend an inordinate amount of time going through new music for my students, as we all do. Buying tons of music isn't the answer - exposing her to music and encouraging more practice is the answer. I've conveyed this to them and they agree. Short of being rude, how can I "protect" my free time?

Next lesson, ask the father to come into your room and "talk" about the pieces to choose from. You have to do this right away in the first minute of your lesson time. It is up to him if he wants to use all 30 minutes to "talk" about it. When 30 minutes is up, show him the door then he will know next time not to talk too much or her daughter won't have any chance to learn anything for the lesson.
After you show him to door to exit, make sure to mention that: "Oh no, I need to run to bath room now. See you next week!

I use physical space to accomplish the needed separation. There are many ways to do this. My teaching studio is in a building shared with others, and we have a long hallway that leads to a workroom / storage room in back. If I need to get away, I enthusiastically say goodbye while I start walking down the hallway.

Other times I usher the student and parent out the studio door, and then close the door and pick up the phone. It doesn't matter who I am calling. The message is clear: I am not available right now and I am moving on to what is next.

Consider doctor's offices. Their facilities are designed in such a way that the doctor walks into the exam room, spends their 15 minutes with you, and then is out the door to the next room. You don't even have the opportunity to hijack their time.

We are professionals too, and have the right to manage our time and schedule.

Thank you ez and musicpassion. It is hard for me to set boundaries on some occasions, and I really appreciate your advice and will use it.

Yep, stand up and start walking to escort the parent out. Or just start walking yourself to the bathroom. Dad will get the idea.

I have practiced this skill with new teachers to use at parent teacher conferences and with new therapists to get clients to move out of their sessions on time.

Practice this out loud in front of a mirror:

"Sorry, I can't talk right now."

After saying it once, walk away from the mirror.

Come right back to the mirror, and repeat as necessary until it becomes an automatic vocal and walking away response (aka "muscle memory").

I've told him that I have a short break and have administrative work to do, but he came back to my room again with books in hand. I will have to be firmer. Thanks!

"NO means NO" - to borrow a phrase which has been used in another context.

In my line of work, I frequently have to deal with pushy/insistent people - not least, parents. Unfortunately, some of them have gotten used to getting their own way by throwing their weight around.

I firmly but politely tell them that I have other work to attend to.

'Give someone an inch and......'

There's no clear good answer here. You work in a music store, so dad is confronted with teaching materials most parents never see. And he has a built-in half an hour to look for new books to suggest to you!

Moreover, we are all forgetting that in a way it is wonderful that a father even cares about the progress of his daughter at the keyboard: this is very rare. He's trying to be helpful, and to you he's an annoyance. Both are true.

I might just send dad a note, saying that he might not grasp it, but that you have no time to speak to him after his little Sheila's lesson: you're busy prepping for little Sylvester's lesson at 4:15pm. Suggest dad come in for a conference with you some other time, or that the two of you schedule a phone conference.

He'll probably not find the time for either.

I have this happen, too. Slightly different scenario, but the same root problem. I'm usually eating during my break, so I say, "Give me about 10 minutes and I'll be with you. Gotta finish my sandwich. I'm grouchy without food since I'm hypoglycemic."

And when I have parents using the next student's lesson time to ask questions, I just tell them I "gotta start the next lesson, but I'll give you a call this week."

Good luck, my friend!!

ChasingRain, your music store very likely carries some of the books by Alfred or Hal Leonard/ Schirmer, which contain both piano scores and a CD with a recording of the score. They are not expensive, and address a range of abilities. The guy wants to help, and is dying to buy something. So...

It opens the door, anyway, to the idea that the child can listen to something at home that she just may be able to learn to play, and, failing that (which is not unlikely, the way her lessons are going), at least she may hear something which is worthwhile, and that she is unlikely to encounter elsewhere.

The subject of buying CDs by better performers, to be listened to for pleasure, or even attending concerts with her dad, could thereby by opened. The potential is there that these could actually awaken her inner musician. As for the downside, what could be worse than the present?

It is thinkable that a lesson, or several, could be profitably spent by listening to a recording while teacher and student follow along in the score together... and then, even strike a few notes on the keyboard. It could even get to be a habit.

Something has got to be found to reach this child, or she will be lost for good, as far as her music education is concerned.

Peter, I've done this several times with him. I sent him an email last week thanking him for his support and expressing my appreciation, however, as I've told them on numerous occasions, the amount of music is not as important in progress as is her practice time. She practices barely an hour a week, which at her level, should be at least that much a day. I've told him that I am happy to go over music during the lesson time, but he doesn't want to "waste" lesson time on any kind of discussion. He feels that the next student's lesson time, or my free time should be devoted to his constant search of music.

And I should mention, this has been ongoing for years with this parent.

The fact that this has been going on for years will make it very difficult to change.

You might have the boss whisk you away under the guise of getting you to do a new task. Because the parent seems interested in music, I would harp on the idea of him taking piano lessons. Every time he wants to talk music, you invite him to start piano lessons. I'd take the music he wants to talk about and put it on the music desk of a piano and get him to sit on the piano bench. Pretty soon, he will either take the lessons or stop bugging you.

I can imagine you must feel pulled in two directions -- both working as a teacher and working as a salesperson for music books. That makes it more complicated.

I like Candywoman's idea of encouraging him to take lessons. Along the same like you could invite him to apply for a job at the store based on his careful attention to music books and sheets.

Candywoman, thanks for your suggestions. I actually thought about suggesting he take lessons, since he is so enthusiastic about amassing all of these different styles of music for his daughter. One of the books he just purchased for her contains 30+ songs in it. She has a lesson book, a Dozen a Day book, and at least 3 popular song books, and he still continues to look for more. I wish some of my other parents shared half his interest. Sometimes, the other end of the spectrum occurs - the look of pain when you ask parents to purchase the next level book, or an additional book of music.

heather, for me, it's a benefit to have all those musical selections available for students to purchase on the spot, or for me to browse through. Teachers don't receive any commission for music that is purchased.

I get the first one, but I don't get the second. He might indeed be interested in taking lessons, and his enthusiasm may be a sign of this that he might not be aware of himself. But surely if he is paying for his child's lessons he already has a job. And it probably pays more than work as a sales clerk.

Keystring--I'm not suggesting it as a way for this parent to earn an income as much as for some way to spend his time and energy other than trying to engage the OP during break time.

The suggestion would also provide a polite redirection: "You're quite a connoisseur of this music; you'd be an excellent addition to the sales staff here. Our manager, John could take your application..." rather than "Leave me alone! I need a break!"

I would take that as sarcasm, as not meant genuinely, and such a thing always annoys me immensely. It is not an honest comment. I prefer honesty from the people I deal with, especially anyone teaching my children.

My sense is that you and others who would view this as sarcasm would be more sensitive to the teacher's need for a break as well.

What? This makes no sense. I have written nothing against the teacher's need for a break, and fully agree with it. I was writing about clear and honest communication. The idea of offering the parent lessons makes sense, because that degree of interest could in fact be a latent wish to study piano himself, and he might indeed be open to it. But the idea of suggesting a job there selling books cannot be sincere, because a parent who is paying for a child's lessons will probably have a job, and probably it is a well paying job for him to be able to afford lessons and also want to buy books. That offer cannot be genuine. Therefore it must be sarcastic, or at least be dishonest. I mean dishonest in the sense of pretending to offer somebody a job without meaning it, when the real motive is not wanting to be bothered after lessons. There is no genuine motive of thinking the employed parent would want to work as a salesman in the store.

My point is for honesty. I hope this is more clear.

I would schedule a student right after this one, and then have your break before this student's lesson or after the 2nd student. Then it's easy to say, "I have another lesson now. Feel free to email me with questions, or come in at the beginning of your child's lesson next week to discuss." Then go in your room and shut the door behind you.

If you are unable to rearrange your schedule, then walk him to the door, then open it for him and hold it and say, "Well, have a good week!"

Also, the next time he brings more music, I would tell him, "She really doesn't need more music now. If she can practice 2 hours this week, then I may be inclined to give her more. But she has to prove that she's earned something new to work on." You may have already said this, but you need to be firm about it. Don't act like you'll consider it, turn it down before he even shows you what it is, and remind him that you've said this before. Stick to your guns, you are the professional who he's hired to teach. He needs to let you do your job and be on the same page as you at home. You may even want to say this, because he seems to think he's got a better idea than you as yo how to "inspire" his daughter.

Success breeds success, and if she's not going to succeed at baby steps (which come from practicing just a bit more) then it's certainly not going to happen with jumping from piece to piece, which is actually HARDER to do well.

+2
I think that's the only viable option.

Since you agree to both propositions, could you explain the second one? If the parent is paying for the child's lessons, I would assume that the father already has a job, and would not be seeking a job. His profession could be any number of things, and the chance that he is a salesman is relatively slim. I have a feeling that selling books in a store does not offer that good of a pay. A parent springing for regular lessons probably has a good job (better salary). Above all, there is no reason to believe that this parent is looking to change his employment.

So why is it a good idea to suggest to this father that he change his profession?

I believe, again, that there is no serious idea of having the father change his profession and work at the teacher's location. I believe that it's more of a sarcastic response because of annoyance at the father's behaviour. Having been a parent with a child taking lessons, I find honest communication important. You don't want to vaguely sense that maybe the teacher is annoyed about something. You don't want to puzzle out why the teacher is trying to get you to change jobs. The biggest problem we faced the first time a child of mine took lessons was due to lack of communication and guesswork. To me this is a serious thing, and I don't like game playing. Unless you actually think the parent wants to change professions and is seeking employment, it does seem like game playing - like hinting at things.

Seriously - I would want to be told what the problem is directly. Not be offered a job selling books, when that offer is not sincere. But be told that the teacher does not have time to discuss things after lessons - does not want to - and be given an alternative. That is straightforward.

You are absolutely right! It is meant to be sarcastic. However, I think in this case it might actually work. Especially if the said parent hasn't been able to take the hint for a long period of time.

Honesty doesn't work for everyone.

You said it better than I.

I'm not sure what you've been trying to get at here. I work in tech support, and often a customer will say, "This is happening, and I think the problem may be this..."

And I say, "I agree. Great troubleshooting. If you ever need a job, we're always hiring."

I've never had anybody take offense to that.

Sometimes, this is the only thing that will bring home the message.

My profession includes the routine use of a lot of technical terms and Latin names. If a 'client' tries to tell me how to do my job, I reply to him as if I were speaking to a colleague who's familiar with the lingo. He soon gets the hint......

I think it would be easier to tell dad, Great job dad at looking for music ideas, but right now Sammy needs to practice the music she is assigned for 30 minutes a day. Once she has learned her pieces, we can look for new music. Please check her practice folder, now if you'll excuse me, I need to make a phone call, see you next week. (and then walk away)

If anyone got embarrassed by that response, they would not let you know their true feelings. And tech support does not involve the same kind of close relationship as the parent-teacher-student triangle.

In the story so far, the parent has never been told the situation. He doesn't know that he is encroaching on the teacher's time and that it is a problem. Probably he thinks that the teacher is pleased with his enthusiasm and involvement. I mean - he has no idea. So why not finally tell him? How else will he know?

I have already explained why I'm writing about this. When I first got involved in lessons for my child, and later for myself, there were problems that could have been prevented if only there had been communication. Since then I have seen it happen with other people. Someone who is not in your field also cannot put himself in your shoes. You have a long term ongoing relationship, so resentments fester, and misunderstandings grow. People don't know.

I also run a business where I provide a service. People just don't know and they do really stupid things because they don't know. It's just how it is.

If I got that kind of sarcastic response back then, I wouldn't know what to do with it. It would leave me confused and bewildered, and it would not solve the problem. So what is the point of doing something ineffective?

Anyway, that is my reasoning.

I agree that honesty is the best policy but I would say it in the nicest possible way. If my son's teacher told me that I should work at a music store because I brought in so much music, I would be thoroughly confused and irritated. I would not understand that this was an insult for taking up her break.

I think the best solution is to tell the father something like, "I'm sorry I can't talk now. I have to make a phone call now and get a bite to eat. This is the only 15 minutes of free time I have between now and and X pm. I would be happy to discuss this with you at the beginning of the next lesson."

At the next lesson, I would say something like what Maggie girl recommends regarding practice and new music. This way if the father has questions, he can get them answered though he'll probably be brief since he knows the clock is ticking.

The original post on this thread describes some of chasingrainbows' attempts to communicate in simple and direct ways with this parent.

It's a good try, but not clear enough. When the father replied that he does not want to take time from the lesson a possible reply would have been:

I really appreciate your involvement. However, discussing book choice during my break time (after lessons) is not an option. I need the time so that I can be prepared and alert in the next lesson. If you like, we can schedule an extra lesson-time [whenever suitable] where we can discuss your daughter's progress and book choice."

Or

"I really appreciate your interest in piano music and involvement. At the moment it is most efficient if your daughter stays in xxx. If she practices.... then it might be appropriate to look for new music at New year. You are very welcome with further questions, but discussion is only possible during lesson time."

The OP needs to be clear about that what the father wants is not an option, but still offer support and indicate that she does hear his arguments but still have a different view on the situation.

This is what CRB said in the opening post:



It's not at all clear that "dad" really understands the way he is imposing on her free time.

I think Peter B. Mose hits the proverbial nail on the head:




This would be direct but not offensive. Try this first. If it doesn't work, the sarcasm routine is always there, waiting in the wings.

I just read through it. At no time has the parent been told NOT to talk to the teacher after lessons. Now probably everyone here clearly sees the problem, and that this should not be done - especially frequently. But this father is not in the loop. For us it may be a polite hint when it is suggested to the father to come during lessons, because we know what the problem is. But he doesn't get the connection of what he should not do. This kind of politeness is indirect, and if people are dense and don't have the whole picture they simply won't get it. It's especially a problem for those of us who are female, because we grow up learning to be indirect, not be "confrontational" etc.

It is very difficult to make a direct statement. I found it extremely difficult to learn to do it, and am still getting my feet wet in that respect. But it can make a great difference, and remove some complications from life.

Hi Maggiegirl, I sent him an email after the first time he followed me around during my short break, applauding his interest, but again, reminding him, as I do to all parents, practice is the main pathway to progress. It's much easier for him to amass books of music than to oversee a regular practice schedule, I'm guessing.

Pianomom, the reason for my post is because I have done this repeatedly over the years with this parent. I am at my wit's end trying to find a "nice" way to tell him that he must email me or come in during the lesson time. He continues to do as he pleases--to approach me yet again, while I am having a discussion with a colleague, is, IMO, disrespectful of all of my prior requests to him.

keystring, I think you missed my posts regarding of often I have told him (and all other parents who think that one second of their child's lesson time should not be wasted, yet feel I should stand and chat with them during the next student's lesson) about this issue. My first post reads:
I've asked the dad several times to come during the lesson, but he never wants to "take time from her lesson." Rather, he thinks that my break time should be spent doing this. I spend an inordinate amount of time going through new music for my students, as we all do. Buying tons of music isn't the answer - exposing her to music and encouraging more practice is the answer. I've conveyed this to them and they agree. Short of being rude, how can I "protect" my free time?

How has this not conveyed the message?

I understand what you are saying, Chasingrainbows. But I have also caught the one thing that you did not say - namely that you do NOT want this father to talk to you about things outside the hours allotted to his child's lessons. It is so obvious to you and all of us that you cannot imagine that this needs saying. But it may need saying. Just in case, why not give this part a try? If I'm wrong then it won't work. But if he says "I never realized." then bingo.

Chasingrainbows, probably you have not conveyed the message, since the father doesn't get it. When he replies he does not want to take time from lessons, you cannot let that just pass. There should be a firm reply: Sorry, but questions/discussion needs to take place during lesson.

If you want to be nice, suggest booking an extra lesson devoted to discussion. Yes, a paid lesson. If you get email messages, then you can also reply that you will address the question in the next lesson. Avoid expressions like "I would prefer if you". You need to give the impression that you are an expert, and that your opinion about when to look for new books counts. Why not say that you notice there is not enough practicing, and write a contract with student and father about what you expect for the rest of the semester?

Only because you allow him. You need to be direct. "I can't talk right now, this is my time to prepare for my next student," is fine, then walk into your room and shut the door behind you.

The onus of setting healthy boundaries lies upon you, and if it's not happening, that is partially because while you've probably said as much, you haven't acted upon it. Protect your free time. Walk into the ladies' room if you must.

It is hard to guess what someone is thinking, but it sounds like this is a dad who wants to help his daughter succeed, he's not seeing her very excited about piano or piano lessons, so he's doing what he knows to do - buy music pieces and see if that spurs some motivation/excitement. He sees you as a teammate in this quest, so he bugs you about different pieces and doesn't want to slow down her progress during lesson time.

Would it work to ask dad to bring some of the books that he has amassed to the next lesson? Dedicate the next lesson to you playing some of the pieces that are at her level and have her choose one she likes to work on. Instruct her and dad that this should not interfere with the practice she needs to do for her regular work, but that you will work on getting this piece up to form over the next several weeks/months. Let him know he has plenty of great material to work from in the books he showed you, and that introducing any more material at this point is not needed since we want to focus on the nice collection he's already accumulated. Too much material can actually become distracting at her age, or something to that effect.

Troy, thank you for your input. I've gone through dozens of books he's selected for her, as well as music I've brought in for her and books I've gone through. I will continue to emphasize that her practice time is most important and I've started a log for her to track her practice times. As I said, I have thanked him for his interest and support in her piano study. It seems more clarity is in order.

You can be clear and offer a compromise solution, like a quarterly review of progresses and objectives where you can throw a 30 minutes "freebie" to discuss the progress. Economically is not a bad solution because it's just 30 minutes every 12/13 lessons and should provide him a message clear enough about two things: your time is valuable and can't keep try to change direction at the helm while the daughter is learning.
If he comes to your studio, IMHO, you should set it up in a day when there is no lesson, so is going to be only the two of you and cause him a little discomfort because of the drive and so on...

just saying.

chasingrainbows, I think not just clarity is required, but also the utmost in directness, and in firmness. It may at first feel "not nice" to be direct with him. That's OK. (keystring talked about this when she was talking about needing to learn to say "no".)

You said early on in the thread that you have a problem setting boundaries, and I think learning ways to set and enforce boundaries is the key to what's going on here.

When he interrupts when you're talking to someone, what do you currently say or do?

Why did you put "break" in quotations in the thread title?

PS88, lol, are you a therapist? I can usually set boundaries, but often feel remorse afterwards, because I don't like to "hurt" anyone, unless they've really been rude. I enjoy his enthusiasm, but am annoyed by a his mindset (and many of my other parents) wherein they watch every minute of the lesson time yet conveniently ignore all the hours spent looking for music, copying music, giving recitals, sending emails, etc. I have no problem with a minute or two chat if a student isn't waiting, but since my last recital, and the open lesson slot after his daughter's lesson, this has been a weekly event, since the end of June.

When he interrupted me, I looked at him, excused myself from the other teacher, and said he should bring the proposed books to the next lesson for us to go over. Needless to say, he did not do that at the next lesson.

The reason I put "break" in quotes is because, unless we get a cancellation or a dropped student, there are no breaks at the store. We can routinely work 7 straight hours with back to back lessons and not a moment's break. So if there's an opening, it is precious commodity that we cherish.

Perhaps Mr. Wilder can serve as inspiration for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bl32n6-JXc

I doubt if I will ever compare to Mr. Wilder. What a great scene. thanks for sharing!

Excellent form! See how he takes out his policy [contract] and points to the exact place where it states what the parent and student should be doing. They failed to follow the policy and so... YOU LOSE!! Good day, sir!



We can all learn a thing or two about establishing and maintaining boundaries from this LOL!

Children can't sign binding contracts. His argument is void.

On another point. The youth fiction world is a much poorer place without Mr Dahl.

Kurt

Morodiene, Mr. Wilder had the foresight to include that in his policy. I did not have such a clause in my policy to limit questions/comments, etc. to lesson time or by email.

Chasingrainbows: it is never too late to include that.

chasingrainbows, lol, no I'm not a therapist.

It occurred to me that something that might be going on is this: if I'm in a store and see someone who is staff, I'm going to go up to them and, unless they're waiting on another customer already, expect that they'll break off what they're doing and attend to me. Now there can be valid reasons they can give me, but even then my experience is if they can't help me right then, they'll break off for long enough to find me someone who can, or at least point me in the right direction.

From the father's point of view, he may see you as store staff and therefore expect you to deal with him over anything else. If so, then when he sees you talking to a colleague, he doesn't see "person in a conversation already, don't interrupt," he may see "person to help me who is idling at the moment with chitchat, but of course her first duty is to help me."

I'm thinking about what might be effective ways of protecting your time, if this is what's going on with him.

Separate from the person-in-a-store-at-my-service issue, people *will* choose to keep testing your boundaries in whatever direction will be most beneficial to them. Perhaps you could think of yourself as an ace in boundary-maintenance: stock up on several techniques, and judge the success of an interaction not by whether the other person indicated that they were pleased, but by how successful you were at using your techniques. As keystring has said, this can feel difficult initially because we have been trained that we should be accommodating and not tell people No. There are other important things besides being kind, such as being direct, being fair, being objective, taking care of yourself, etc. (Directness is not unkind.)

You're right, ezpiano!

Thanks -- this family has been with me for several years. They are very aware of the difference between the sales staff and the teachers. Teachers of course, have their own studios, and the sales people are at the front of the store behind the counter. He was just trying to take advantage of the gap in between lessons. It seems he finally got the message(s), since he has not attempted to ask for extra time after his child's lesson is over.