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Topic Options
#2446921 - 08/02/15 06:34 PM Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote!
Ashton M. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 7
https://youtu.be/nJH4UoB9z1c

Here's a video I created where one section is of a real piano recording, and everything else is virtual instrumentation. Can you guess where the real section is? Most of all - which piano sounds the best to your ears?

If you'd like to know which is what, PM me and if you promise to keep a tight lip I'll go ahead and reveal it to ya. Albeit, not until after you've stated which piano is the best to your ears.

Piano 1 vs. Piano 2 vs. Piano 3 vs. Piano 4 vs. Piano 5 vs. Piano 6 vs. Piano 7 vs. Piano 8

Let your ears be the judge. wink

Share your thoughts.

Ashton


Edited by Ashton M. (08/02/15 06:36 PM)

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#2446968 - 08/02/15 08:29 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4245
Loc: North Carolina
What are the voting criteria?

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#2447033 - 08/03/15 12:41 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: MacMacMac]
Ashton M. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By MacMacMac
What are the voting criteria?

It doesn't need to be anything overly critical, just vote based upon what sounds best to your ears. Bonus points if you can state why you feel the way you do. cool

Ashton

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#2447060 - 08/03/15 05:38 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
peterws Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4415
Loc: Northern England.
Cash prizes? grin
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2447064 - 08/03/15 05:45 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: peterws]
Kumi_27 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 50
Loc: TG, Poland
Originally Posted By peterws
Cash prizes? grin


In such cases, they usually say "CEO's handshake" laugh
_________________________
Michael / GEM RP90 / SX-P50

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#2447065 - 08/03/15 05:51 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Kumi_27]
peterws Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4415
Loc: Northern England.
Ha ha!

Pianos 3 and 5 scored even top. 5 is the acoustic. (might not be)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2447076 - 08/03/15 06:39 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
toddy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portugal
3 (especially), 6 and 8 are good, though not partucularly characterful. This is using truly awful computer desktop speakers. Later, I'll try again on reasonable headphones.


Edited by toddy (08/03/15 06:39 AM)
_________________________
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 Ult. / Audiophile 2496
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Monitors: Yamaha HS7s .

Prudence is a rich ugly old maid courted by Incapacity. He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven & heck

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#2447163 - 08/03/15 01:37 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
MossySF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 127
My preference:

7
8
1
6
4
2
3
5
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/mossy456/

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#2447194 - 08/03/15 03:00 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
Thomas B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 75
Hi Ashton,

I really like the material. I will try to match the levels first before diving into the sound. For me, the acoustic piano stands out, because it sounds to me like it was compressed during recording (fingers crossed grin)

Thomas

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#2447214 - 08/03/15 04:05 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 337
Loc: Virginia, USA
8,2,7,6,1,4,3,5

Some I felt were louder than others, which tends to sound better when compared directly.

The brighter pianos were the ones I preferred. Which made me think 5 might be the real piano. Its very difficult to get a clean mic sound out of a piano unless your using several mics and mixing them. Any of these could be eq'd to sound very different.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#2447229 - 08/03/15 05:03 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: peterws]
Ashton M. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By peterws
Ha ha!

Pianos 3 and 5 scored even top. 5 is the acoustic. (might not be)

Haha, thanks for chiming in. I'd PM you the results of this test, but it appears you do not accept them.

Originally Posted By toddy
3 (especially), 6 and 8 are good, though not partucularly characterful. This is using truly awful computer desktop speakers. Later, I'll try again on reasonable headphones.

I'd love to hear your thoughts when you're listening on a better system!

Originally Posted By MossySF
My preference:

7
8
1
6
4
2
3
5

Thanks for your ranking. Which do you think is the real piano recording?

Originally Posted By Thomas B
Hi Ashton,

I really like the material. I will try to match the levels first before diving into the sound. For me, the acoustic piano stands out, because it sounds to me like it was compressed during recording (fingers crossed grin)

Thomas

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. And which do you believe is the acoustic piano? wink I look forward to your response.

Originally Posted By Kbeaumont
8,2,7,6,1,4,3,5

Some I felt were louder than others, which tends to sound better when compared directly.

The brighter pianos were the ones I preferred. Which made me think 5 might be the real piano. Its very difficult to get a clean mic sound out of a piano unless your using several mics and mixing them. Any of these could be eq'd to sound very different.

Thanks for the ranking. You're correct - if I could do it all over again I'd more closely match the RMS levels between each VST. I'll do this if I create a future shootout. wink

You make a great point - mixing plays a vital role in piano recordings. There's an infinite number of possibilities. However, it's the fact that mixing can make products appear as something they are not, thus leaving many consumers feeling deceived. Hence, these unprocessed samples are deliberate.

Ashton


Edited by Ashton M. (08/03/15 05:05 PM)

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#2447235 - 08/03/15 05:14 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
wdco Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/22/15
Posts: 19
It was little confusing about pianos might be switched during sections back and forth from acoustic to digital (I assume). I was more impressed by the music than the pianos as I agree with above... not too much character to any of these pianos. Nice as the music is, it's way too busy for a shootout and for any real assessment. This happens more often than not with the new product demos with whizz bang demos that dazzle and amaze and prevent any real assessment. These are my first impressions, I didn't re-listen... just noted as I went.

Piano 1 had a tubby tenor and bass and sounded very digital and unappealing through most of it.

Piano 2, I have no comments so I might've thought it was either a well trimmed digital or an acoustic, again the sound was polished but lacked appeal.

Piano 3, I thought might've been acoustic or digital and sounds nice

Piano 4 sounded more acoustic and nice

Piano 5 was digital and the filter or layering on lower velocities was not properly adjusted

Piano 6 was at a lower volume making comparison difficult

Piano 7 the last part was a digital piano with a little hash

Piano 8 was nice but somewhere in the beginning some unisons were out in the upper

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#2447281 - 08/03/15 07:01 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
toddy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portugal
Something peculiar happening with Piano 5 - it changes according from a closed, filtered sound to a sharper open sound - could this just be velocity switching? It's like the sun coming in and out from behind the clouds.



On phones, the most pleasing is 7. There are fewer annoying artifacts, but overall effect, noise other than pure notes included is agreeable, and convincing. Odd sound in lower velocity low-mids.

Also, I like 8 - some colour and is refined, but not artificial sounding.
_________________________
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 Ult. / Audiophile 2496
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Monitors: Yamaha HS7s .

Prudence is a rich ugly old maid courted by Incapacity. He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven & heck

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#2447341 - 08/03/15 11:23 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
AZ_Astro Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/12
Posts: 560
Loc: Tempe, Arizona

I liked pianos 3, 7 and 8 all very much. They shined a bit whereas most of the others were slightly duller. I'm going to guess that 3 is the acoustic (Yamaha C) but my second and third guesses would be 7 and 8. If only one of the eight is acoustic then it is nicely prepped and tuned and your recording did well to remove all recording artifacts that might make it identifiable as acoustic.

Like More
3
7
8
2
6
4
5
1
Like Less

Piano 1: Weak bass, poor sustain, sounds very digital in parts, lacking in texture.
Piano 2: Muddy in the bass, dynamics unimpressive, better than #1, same piano as 1 but mic'd closer?
Piano 3: Some texture to the treble that is nice. Bass is a little weak/muddy. Treble is a little hard/bright. Possibly acoustic. I liked this piano! Sounds like a nice

Yamaha C3! Nice playing! If it's digital, it's the bass that disappoints.
Piano 4: Weak bass. Lacking in texture and sparkle and contrast. Doesn't stand out.
Piano 5: Muddy bass. Lacking in texture and contrast. Doesn't stand out.
Piano 6: The bass lacks definition. Overall not bad but still lacking in depth and contrast. In some ways I did like this piano however. Sounds very digital in the fast

parts.
Piano 7: Mic is further away to good effect. Possibly acoustic as there is considerable contrast to the sound. Nice!
Piano 8: I liked 8 very much but the bass sounded a little artificial at times.
_________________________
Kawai KG-5. Korg SP-250. Software pianos: Ivory II, Ravenscroft, Galaxy Vintage D, Alicia's Keys, et al.


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#2447389 - Yesterday at 06:08 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2347
Loc: uk south
- oooh, I like these listening tests. Please don't post up the results yet, I'd like to have a guess when I get to a better place for listening...

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#2447446 - Yesterday at 11:01 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
Alexander Borro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/14
Posts: 365
Loc: UK
This could take a long time, and the variable volumes in each at first out me off making it harder.

There are not many place with some longer notes and some quieter passages to focus on where I often hear the tell tales. I listened to a few last night in sections, not the whole pieces so far quickly discovered, not easy or an outstanding one quickly to come to the fore so far, tough one.

Just with another lunchtime listen, I ruled out 6 and 2 for the acoustic at this stage, still a lot left. laugh

Reasons

(2) not enough resonances in some of the higher notes, more individuals separate sounds to each key I get the impression. also a bit thinner overall.
(6) Something a bit thinner in the notes at times mids and up lacking bit of body overall compared to some others, reminiscent of ivory ACD in ways that I own, with a touch hint of artificial sound in some areas for me. Resonances are not as strong as in some of the others and overtones weaker too dying away rather quickly in higher octaves, but there again the latter could have to do with recording methods.

I'd be amazed of either of those 6 or 2 are real. If they are I'll retire tomorrow. laugh

To put 6 in perspective, for example listening to 7 straight after, which is still is a strong candidate for me at this stage. Overtones are clearer and stronger, more convincing to me, ringing on more clearly and distinctly, anyway, it for sure sounds more real to me than 6.

Still some way from a full list commitment.





Edited by Alexander Borro (Yesterday at 11:05 AM)
_________________________
started June 2014, self teacher.
Books: Barratt classic piano course book 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various others
Hardware: Casio Celviano AP 450 & various peripherals:
Software: Ivory American D, Pianoteq, The Giant, Cubase 7 elements.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro

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#2447455 - Yesterday at 11:25 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2347
Loc: uk south
Is there a catch, Ashton?

I would put money on Pianos 1 and 6 being identical but for some pedal noise which seems to have been switched on in piano 1 (or was it 6).

All the pianos seem to have been generated from the same MIDI file including the 'acoustic', so I guess the MIDI is recorded on one of those Yamaha silent pianos? I assume the MIDI data hasn't been tweaked to suit each individual piano.

First impressions - which I might modify - and not yet ranked...

Although there are some redeeming passages, I was less pleased with:-

2,3 &7. Could Pianoteq be amongst them? There's some nasty metallic, phony sustain here and there.

I wonder if 5 is the big Vienna library? I've only ever heard a few snatches, not familiar at all but I'm suspicious of the overly mellow pp contrasting with a very bright ff - it's the kind of thing which would have passed for 'expressiveness' in those earlier libraries. Whatever, I'm not keen on it.

I liked, with reservation:-
1 (aka 6) sounds suspiciously like Vintage D.
Also 4 and 8 - one being the acoustic and the other the Yamaha CFX sample, perhaps?...not sure since neither consistently wowed me.

These shoot-outs are always fun but not as revealing as we'd like them to be. A good performance or beautiful composition - often with doctored MIDI - can forgive and almost completely hide a VI's essential qualities and flaws - those we expose under our own hands. So, while I can differentiate the VIs in my own possession after a couple of seconds of playing and can 'prefer' one over another, I think it's impossible to rate a meaningful preference from your test here other than to roundly reject VIs with obvious artifacts - e.g. PT's metallic tone - whenever I feel I can hear them.

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#2447510 - Yesterday at 12:54 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
proteal Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/03/15
Posts: 2
I like #7 most and guess it's the acoustic. Next best is #3. #5 has a strange balance between mellow and bright tones, either it's a lower quality acoustic or more "unique" VST. The rest don't stand out.

Also, I was expecting at least one to be Pianoteq, but I don't recognize it among any of them.


Edited by proteal (Yesterday at 01:03 PM)

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#2447530 - Yesterday at 01:22 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: proteal]
Alexander Borro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/14
Posts: 365
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By proteal
#5 has a strange balance between mellow and bright tones, either it's a lower quality acoustic or more "unique" VST. The rest don't stand out.


I agree about 5 being a bit wierd that way. The pianos I heard demos of on soundcloud youtube and places, are the native instruments ones like the maverick that do those sort of tricks, etc, not so much the default basic presets though, typically they tend to do it because they involve compressors in a lot of their effects laden presets too.

The giant I actually own has that characteristic too on some presets, though no 5 isn't the giant I strongly believe, I know it well how it sounds since I own it, and it doesn't sound like #5, but the piano #5 sound has that sort of native instruments mix feel to it you hear in some of their demos too, where they fatten it up. They don't sound like with the drier default presets I heard ( from what I remember of the demos anyway by various ), it's been a while though so it is not as if they are fresh in memory.
_________________________
started June 2014, self teacher.
Books: Barratt classic piano course book 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various others
Hardware: Casio Celviano AP 450 & various peripherals:
Software: Ivory American D, Pianoteq, The Giant, Cubase 7 elements.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro

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#2447595 - Yesterday at 03:52 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
daz100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 148
I like 7 the most and would also say 7 is the real piano.5 would be next on the list and I think its pianoteq bluthner.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1,True keys American,Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq 5.0 and Ravenscroft

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#2447609 - Yesterday at 04:41 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: daz100]
Alexander Borro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/14
Posts: 365
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By daz100
I like 7 the most and would also say 7 is the real piano.5 would be next on the list and I think its pianoteq bluthner.


Interesting how ears how our ears are all different, I just listened to that one #5 again somehow I feel 5 is not pianoteq bluthner, but with different phones I used earlier, so the perception was a bit different to before on that piano. Nevertheless even with out of all fxps or heavy note editing I heard to date on pteq, no chance for me that is pianoteq with out of box preset settings. I can A/B that 5 performance just now and play a few notes on the bluthner at home on daily bluethner setting, and it doesn't sound the same.

I'll happily eat my words if I am wrong. laugh blush

I wish it was done with already and the results announced, coz I'll spend more time wasting in listening to more later. 3 pianos I would have been okay with to commit a list by now, 8 is too much.
_________________________
started June 2014, self teacher.
Books: Barratt classic piano course book 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various others
Hardware: Casio Celviano AP 450 & various peripherals:
Software: Ivory American D, Pianoteq, The Giant, Cubase 7 elements.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro

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#2447681 - Yesterday at 08:35 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
Ashton M. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 7
I'll be publicly revealing the results of this test tomorrow!

Wdco - I'm glad you enjoyed the music. Thanks for chiming in and leaving your detailed response.

Toddy - That's a great point in regards to #5, I'll comment about this when I reveal the results. wink What is your favorite between #7 and #8? It seems you made your "most pleasing" comment before hearing #8.

AZ_Astro - Your ear is impeccable, I'll reveal that #3 is indeed a Yamaha C. smile Great job. However, pianos 1 and 2 are not the same, I'll reveal it later when I mention the results to protect the integrity of the listening experience. What made you think #8’s bass sounded artificial? Thanks for your critical and detailed response!

Alexander Borrow – Yeah, I wish I would’ve matched the RMS levels between all piano samples. I’ll do it if I ever do a future blind shootout, though. I’ll also probably some mellow jazz snippets in it to display some of the longer notes. You made me burst out of laughter when I read your retiring tomorrow comment. Out of the 8 pianos which is your favorite? Which piano are you sold on being the real piano?

dire tonic – You have good ears, you’ll be pleasantly surprised when you see the results. They are all from the same midi, but you have to bear in mind that there are midi strips for acoustic pianos. wink I’ll have lots to say to you once I reveal the results (Tomorrow).

Proteal – Thanks for the vote, proteal. You’ll see in the results tomorrow.

Daz100 – Thanks for the vote, Daz.

Ashton


Edited by Ashton M. (Yesterday at 08:35 PM)

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#2447684 - Yesterday at 08:36 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
pold Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 69
I don't know which is the acoustic one, but the one I like the most is the 7, it sounded the most natural and convincing. pm me the results, thanx

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#2447729 - Yesterday at 11:52 PM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
damos3000 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/23/15
Posts: 3
My guess is 8 being the acoustic and also my favorite sounding. Cool topic and good job putting that together !

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#2447748 - Today at 02:30 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: damos3000]
Ashton M. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 7
Thank you very much! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'll also PM you the results of this test.

Ashton

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#2447752 - Today at 02:39 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: Ashton M.]
pmh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/12/14
Posts: 50
Loc: South Coast UK
I decided my ears are somewhat useless at this sot of thing. Spent ages on it as well. Like others my preferred sound it 8 and I'll suggest this is also the acoustic. OR is it 5???


Edited by pmh (Today at 02:46 AM)
_________________________
Kemble Compact Acoustic Piano, Pianoteq Standard, Galaxy Vintage D.

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#2447756 - Today at 02:45 AM Re: Blind Piano VST Shootout: Cast your vote! [Re: pmh]
Ashton M. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By pmh
I decided my ears are somewhat useless at this sot of thing. Spent ages on it as well. Like others my preferred sound it 8 and I'll suggest this is also the acoustic.

No worries, considering the quality of our audiences ears will vary, all votes have great value. I'll PM you the results of the test.

Ashton


Edited by Ashton M. (Today at 02:45 AM)

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