Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum you tune the first string

how do you make the second "land" in the tone of the first ?

from under ?

from above ?

trying to lock both strings with a test blow ?

trying to have the same exact tone than the first string ?

How do you visualize that process ?

That is an exercise in wording if it interest you.**thanks

(you have 4 hours )

I tune the seccond string from above trying to find the spot where they couple and vibrate in unison. The trick is to find the exact point above where pulling down will end with a stable tuning pin and a settled string at the right pitch.

That may seem difficult to achieve at first glance but once I get the feeling of the piano it is really easy to do.

So for me the goal is to find out how much to rise the pitch of the second string above the pitch of the first one. If estimed correctly then a simple pull down of the tuning hammer will put the tuning pin and the string in a stable position and at the right pitch, all at once.

If when I pull down (I'm left handed) I reach the point of stability without the string being at pitch then I re-start be it by lowering the pitch if it was above or rising it if it was under.

Really easy to do and it gives me a sort of pace when tuning.

Thank you, indeed a pace when listening that way (I am more interested in the way we listen than in the mechanical process, even if both are linked, I think).

Now do you think you may listen for the coupling, or unison, more or less early in the tone, depending of the voicing, the type of tone of the piano? (in short do you tune more or less early?)

To obtain sooner the coupling, I find that the playing hand have a role, if not we only can listen a little later, and the (aural) proof of the coupling is less strong.

Listening early does not mean not listening to the dwell.

What do you think? (I am trying to refine the term "pitch" you used.)


Also, as you come from above, you hear the "pitch" landing in the good spot. do you think that spot is including the second string a hair high ?

I tune the second string from above and go back to the point where the beating just starts again (after being zeroed)

Interesting, but do you expect the beat to stay put or is it just as then the sustain is soon coupling (with the lightest slippage of the pitch, I think it even happens "naturally" when the note play.)

Does it mean you are not looking for the coupling or breathing, sustained mode (lengthening and thickening without any real "beat") ?

Sorry for the nit picky question, it is genuine, thanks for your answer.

and we talk of the fist couple, (or even bass bichords) it must be that the 3 string is balanced by different methods and approaches...

Regards

I don't think about it. I've discovered that obsessing does nothing to improve my tuning. It's like analyzing how you are riding a bike.

I suppose any and all methods, as determined by how well the piano cooperates!

Ideally, I like to move across the 'quiet zone' - using both ears and hands to feel the unison. I learned by moving across, and then the last motion coming down from above. I've used nudge, impact, twist and bend and anything else I've ever read on different occasions to increase the number of tools in my tuning toolbox.

Sometimes when pianos are full of non-matching or extra tones, moving back and forth across gives me the best chance at finding the best landing spot.

More than beats, there is a tone matching that can happen in the very last moment. I'm reasonably sure that the effect doesn't last long, though I've never followed up to check.

Ron Koval

I don't think "theory" really when doing, but it is advantageous to know different styles, it also interest me on the theories side of things.

Primary concern about differences between unison, as I was shown how to "refine" them, that mean they could be made better.

I am also very pleased to put a name on the effect of tone lenghtening namely "antiphase" and have its scientific explanations (slightly higher pitch , longer sustain)

Regards

Why would coming back down be better than just leaving the second string a tiny amount beyond the quiet zone?

Ian

Ron, You mean last moment coupling ? if so it is not used when playing where the begin of the tone is what allows different touches .

When you say " I like to move across the 'quiet zone' - " , when doing so I specifically look for the coupling moment, a definite physical effect, sensation, you name it, I men not just only avoiding beat or listening to pitches quietness...

If you feel in the hand also, you may notice a strong spot that is less easy to disturb, I suppose. (when it happen soon enough)

Beemer when we talk of going down I dont know for others but for me this is only the string that goes down the pin change a little shape but its basic position (setting) is then unchanged (ideally)

We need some initial overpull also to have the string in front of the pin at least as tense as the speaking lenght

Pianos with very strong angles do not allow for this, and the justness is obtained by rising tension in the front segment and have it jumping across the bearings with a strong blow (in case impacts do not work precisely enough)

But in all cases the pin is under stress at the end of the day.

I did tune for some time by energizing the real attack moment (I think the parallel mode when the strings are yet moving together the same direction)

As this generate a sort of abrubt and noisy attack I noticed my ears tend to close then, in anticipation, I dont know if that made me loose some control on tone or change my listening, but it happened after i finished, (and was so proud with the purity and cleanless of the attack) that I hear the piano played and it sound SO HARD, the pianist was obliged to use a lot the sustain pedal;
Of course it does not stay put for very long, so that can be a defect that is left unsuspected, I had to ask to be explained how to do differently (when it is on concert pianos you feel a little bad)

SO in the end "tuning the attack" mean dealing with the tone a few milliseconds after the real attack itself, tuning when the tone begins to stabilize in musical tone; The difference is perceived in the touch and I recognize it when listening to the tone envelope, as I say here to saturation

It is so quieter to tune that way, also. We cannot really listen to the strong tone immediately after impact as it may be tiring soon, but we can manage the behavior of the couple of strings, then deal with the rest the beats in the partials if any, but they are generally made gentle when the energy is regulated soon.

Probably tune the first couple for the foundation of the unison, the sustain, projection, then the last string to balance any false beat, to deal with the "straightness of the tone" make it more or less "open", more or less "active"

Regards

Olek,

After much reading here and maybe around 12 tunings of my upright I was still under the impression that tuning without "after-blows" was a fine method and one that I have adopted.

In using this method I understood from those here that equalising speaking and unspeaking string tensions is essential.

I thought that this could be done without after-blows but perhaps I was mistaken?

So I need to decide whether to use (for my upright) my present clockwise only technique, or anti-clockwise tension relief, or test blows or both?

Why am I interested in this? I can achieve personally satisfactory (Tunelab or Entropy) tuning but because the tuning holds good for only around a week my tuning stability needs much improving. If we disregard humidity and temperature changes here in Scotland at this time then it points to my lever technique being imperfect.

Before my professional tuner retired the piano maintained its tuning very much longer. I do not believe that I have over-tuned this piano and have always minimised pin movement in any direction.

Ian

Beemer, an afterblow is a good precaution, just to be sure, but it should not be used to tune, as in tht case it works but it is a little inconsistent (it rise the tension in front of the pin while the note loose 0,2 to 1 cts pitch (I am not sure of the amount here) and there is no guarantee that the pin sets in its best posture.

It is normal that you do not get stability immediately, you also may have moved the pins a lot, they like to be in one definit (ive) "set" posture. All the difficulty is to feel that at that point the pin is slightly torqued (not only the string need to have tension, the pin too) .

It is perceived in the tuning lever, the pin "grips in the hole, the more you push on the lever the most it resist.
Indeed with an old block and old pins, you do not push on the pin too much in the rotation plane but help it to stay in place at its bottom by pushing a little toward you at the same time (there is more pressure on the "bed" of the pin when doing so and you may be able to torque a little the high part of the pin without dislodging its foot.

The string stress is here to help to keep that posture in position.

It is of course a tactile question a question of experience, but I think if you know what you are looking for it will be easier.

Test blows are very short rasp just moderately strong staccato. IF the pin is dislodged then You do again the whole process from below .

On a soft or tired block I push on the pin while raising so to avoid "sanding the bed" of the pin, but also it allow me to feel the pin braked a little, it begins to be a little more springy, so I have a more clear feeling when the bottom turns - on an old block the pin turns as a whole, while I want it to add tension for the upper segment of string,;

that is why I allow it to twist when raising it tense the string without moving the pin as much, so on release there is enough extra tension to help the pin to stay in place.

Pushing on the lever (in diagonal toward treble) when rising, add also that extra tension we need.

If you can rise the tone 25 30 cts before the pin really unlock, you have all the needed extra tension.

When releasing and going anti clockwise, as the goal is not to dislodge the pin at all, pull on the lever lightly, then release, if you do that so the tone just pass slightly the wanted pitch and it rise to it on release, you have it perfect.

Really the whole thing is to perceive the pin elasticity. When all is tense at the max, when you pull (toward you) the lever (lightly) the tone lower then back and a very little; On a good block with enough extra tension it even does not lower at all; pull a little in diagonal if necessary , as said above, but check that way that bowing the pin does not disturb the tone much.

Think that this is an auto locking system, if it have much wear it locks less easily, ypou help it by putting the pin in position.

Did you have the pins tapped yet it gives just the wanted torque at the bottom of the pin, with that a good tuner can stabilize the piano (but not in one tuning only)

Sorry for the OT


I mean, when you turn counterclockwise if the pin turn immediately and do not grasp on its bed, put pressure so to brake the pin with it, chances are that on the release the string tension will keep the pin in place (if you added enough tension initially)


ETD do not help at all for that process because you may be afraid of seeing the display going crazy; on a normal setting the pitch can rise more than 50 cts due only to the pin twist so worry about the final pitch not the one when you are entering the extra tension.

I listen to the whole tone. The last final thing that happens is a spring back ro the goal by the pin/string system on its own. The pin forces the string to the right pitch. I tune DOA and I carefully observe what happens during the tone. I accept a really really slow tendency upwards in the unison, like your viennese style union, but a slow motion version.

When there are many non matching tones I concentrate on the first partial to sound good. That calms down the non matching tones. Sometimes it helps to go on in the tuning and then listen to your work with a musical ear when you finished. Everything will be fine then.

I think it is the most common way, thanks for describing.

What do you mean exactly with DOA ? saturated tone during the rebound?

if you allow small pitch rise or look for whole tone coupling, in effect the first moment of tone are a little delayed.

there is some kind of DOA effect with the smiley unison, as the opposite strings are moving parallel, but this is balanced by the middle string (so the smiley can create a nice crispness during attack)

Does it mean you listen for attack crispness "more" than sustain lengthening ? (I say so but I have no much listening on the sustain length, it is positioned from the attack so this is not the best question !)

How I feel it in any case is that due to voicing the attack , more crisp or more round, is always a little enlarged due to voicing, I feel that when I am aware of the attack moment under my fingers while listening to the tone. (the audience do not notice)

the "viennese type" I think mix 2 opposed antiphase modes, their mix strengthen the first moments of tone.

Attack shortened to the max can be ringing but still the tone goes on sustaining mode immediately I think. Keeping the attack energy for too long deaden the dynamics, and shorten too much the tone to be usable as unison. -IMHO

Not fan of using very open unison when not necessary, indeed.

I try to relate the phase mode and the tone, in fact (and find it more easy to understand intellectually than to relate exactly with my tuning practice)

I know I can tune a very vibrant and powerful attack, but something must create sustain.

The 000 setup, stay put for a few minutes, and I suppose the pitch differences that install are less than 0.4 cts, but better install them when tuning.

Agreed with the second partial, the most important for a clean sustain

Thanks again for trying to define what you understand by "unison pitch" (that does not really mean much in its simplest expression)

Regards

There was a time I tuned the beginning of the tone beatless. A kind of DOA unsion. But I was never really happy with the decay in the tone. One or two seconds after the tone started, it was not so clean. So I focused more on the decay to be tuned clean, too.
So two steps: DOA first and then tuning the decay.

Tuning the wounded strings was always a challenge. But since I tune these unisons late in the decay, I find it much easier to clean them up as best as possible. Then I recheck the unison again and mostly it is much cleaner than when tuned earlier after the blow.

I agree, we seem to share the same listening, attack then decay (I said sustain).
"There was a time I tuned the beginning of the tone beatless. A kind of DOA unison. But I was never really happy with the decay in the tone."
rings to me, the moment I had a few "lessons" with the ones that accepted to tell me how they did see the process

The basses need more time to couple probably due to the (always present) small differences between strings. They have more mass, so I am not sure if that make them couple LE more efficiently at the bridge, or less. (?)

For basses sometime I listen to a very light rebound of the hammer with bichords to locate where the tone can be tuned (from which point).

I am not so sure you listen as late as 1-2 seconds, even if cleaning the tail of the tone is efficient, the listening is focused more early I think less than a second, then action is taken and done during the thin part but listening was earlier.
Don't you think?

Regards

When I turn the lever, I usually go slightly over and then lean back to the correct pitch. The amount to go over depends on how springy the string and pin is which I can judge by listening and feeling. When I think the pin is in the right position I like to refine by giving a slight alternate sharp-wise and flat-wise pressure while repeatedly striking the note and maintaining the pitch because I think this helps stability.

As far as the sound is concerned, when the unison sound wobbles or changes the least that I can get it, then it is in tune.

Thanks, you do not make a difference between the top and bottom of pin, or is it to simplify the description ?


I plan to record that an unison with "no beat in attack" (to say as "tuner") even after evolving due to playing, stay focused on the attack and provide a less clean and less interesting tone.

"tuning the attack" can be misinterpreted, as to obtain that relatively short unison, that have no much dynamics, the attack of the tone is tuned, the focus is put on its energy; But there is no good link with the decay in that case. The tone is made more explosive, as it is with a tired soundboard.

Regards