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Dear all,
Can you help me with your feedback what piano should be 'the best one' for me.
As a piano novice (I played 12 years clarinet before) I don't need a Steinway but I'm planning to make fast progressions, because of my musical background.

I'm choosing between:

1: grey grey market piano, Kawai NS 15 in superb conditions. It's a mid 80' one. The piano shop is known to pick up only the best (grey market) piano's in Japan. Price is +- 3500$
2: Liederman 132T brand new. If I do my research on the internet, I don't find information about the brand. So that's already a strange situation. The good point is that it produces great sound!!! What if I want to sell this piano in a few years when nobody has ever heard of the brand name?
3: Yamaha U1, mid 70', of course also grey market, condition not as good ad the Kawai one. The shop doesn't have much experience with grey market piano's and doesn't buy them directly in Japan. Price is +- 3500$.
4: Brand new Kawai K200. Price is (of course) much higher than previous models, 4900$.

From my point of view, (I'am a novice!!!): I fell in love for the Liederman, but after a while, I'm considering about the price if I want to sell it in a few years. Price will be dropped too much for an unknown brand?
So I found the Kawai NS15, superb shape. But what about the age? 30 years old, not any scratch on it so should I buy this one or is it worth it to pay 1400$ more for a new one?
IF the price would be the same: what's the difference between the K200 and NS15 in quality, sound?

So many questions so hopefully you can help me to choose my (hopefully) second love (after my wife).

Thanks!

For me, Yamaha uprights are some of the best upright pianos I've tried. Kawai aren't bad, but I just love the sound and feel of Yamaha.

Never tried Liedermann pianos so can't comment on them

Perhaps someone else here can help you in terms of resale values aswell...

Thanks for your response MC. The problem with the Yamaha one is that I don't have any background information about the piano. Even the dealer doesn't know much about them... I don't have this issue with the Kawai one.

I also read that Yamaha piano's from the 70's are not always as good as mid 80' ones (like the Kawai). Can you confirm this?

I haven't heard of Liederman. That said, I personally would take a gamble on a cheap, new, well-playing, singing 132 cm over this kind of competition. See if you can find a new Samick 132 and bargain hard to match the price of your Kawai. It just might be the prototype of this Liederman.

Is it Liederman or Liedermann?

http://liedermannpianos.com/company.html

Typically, good = $, better = more $, and best = $$$$$ money.

As far as the Yamahas and Kawais from the 70's being not as good as from the 80's, sure, that's likely the case with any major brand. The question is, how much better is the 80's piano in terms of how much more you have to pay. If the cost difference is not substantial, go for the newer piano. If the cost is substantial, you may want to consider whether or not the betterment of the newer instrument is worth the additional cost. Plus, condition is more important than age, most of the time.

This same principle applies to new vs. used as well.

I have two Kawais, a grand and an upright, both from 1969, and they are superb in my view. I have a Yamaha grand from the late 70's and it is superb, especially for what I paid for them.

Good luck.

Rick

yamaha 70 is old , there are exceptions, not always easy to detect them if you are not used to.

Some models of kawai from 80 can be a good choice, same opinion, depends of what remains of the tone

avoid very small more recent models with plywood soundboards if you can (Yam B , Kawai also have a line.) some are happy with the tone, but it is really limited, for dynamics (warm but carboardish sounding)
now I am sorry I do not get your budget really, not knowing your market.


or pianos sold for a certain height but that contain a "resonator", a piece of wood with holes about 10 cm tall, that make the piano artificially higher than it is(whatever the efficiency of the gadget)

sorry not being able to help more

too tall pianos not always advantageous as they soundboard may have skewed more, the size of the U1 is just about perfect to me.

the X series from Yamaha UX1 UX3 are sounding better and more robust (they are a little more expensive and not so common)

good luck

If you can pay an independent tech to help you that should be ideal (when the dealer will offer him 5%

I am joking but this may happen. Try to see if you can be introduced to a tech by friends, teacher, etc..

generally speaking, way better not to be alone at your stade

Agreed but some soundboards get tired sooner (plus strings quality may differ)

Then, due to the repairs done in China on the grey market Yam and Kawai, t may happen that one with new strings pins, hammers, butts, case, etc, can be interesting

The older ones are more repaired;

not very well voiced and cheap hammers, but if the piano did keep its soundboard in condition it can be a good deal. (rare but happens)

all good pianos from the 70 are in need of new strings new hammers generally and more, I agree with you

due to aging of parts not to initial quality

Regards

Angoriaket, you don't mention the price on the Lidermann. How much are they asking?

It's probably a random Chinese stencil. If it sounds the best, go for it. A 30-40 year old Japanese upright is going to be worth even less when you've had your turn with it.

You know, I really need to keep my opinion to myself at times, but I'm inclined to disagree here...

In fact, I think it would likely be the other way around with the Chinese stencil piano (being worth much less at resale).

However, I could be wrong.

Rick

Heed the warnings, look inside for that "resonator" thingy. However if the tone is actually good, there is no space wasted on the resonator. The point is that a dubious new 132-cm just might turn out to be a lifetime instrument, while the alternatives listed are very upgradable. I think I've actually come across this Liedermann website before. Perzina's is even worse and they are a respected brand

It was probably when you were searching for piano companies offering their instruments in a "mohogany" finish.

Rick I am happily willing to concede I am totally full of it, but perhaps we should both reserve judgment until we actually find out what they're asking for this mystery beast.

However I really shouldn't weigh in on these threads because I know very little about uprights My apologies for the kneejerk opinion.

Hi Guys,

The Liedermann 132T is mine for 3360$. For that price, I have a showroom model.

Some of you are curious about my budget: I don't have a budget in mind. If I know that a brand new Kawai is absolutely the best solution, I will buy it. But still, I don't know it's worth the extra (at least) 1400$ for a (beginners) Kawai. I'm a novice so i don't think it's necessary to chose in the top range of Kawai...

So probably I will chose between the two grey market ones: Kawai Ns15 Vs Yamaha U1, both same price, Kawai is 10 years younger.

Now a brand new Kawai for only $1400 more...hmm.

For 4000$ the shop offers a Kawai K15, new! 4900$ for the Kawai K200, 6000$ for the K300, all new! I'm sure they give me a discount. So if I compare the Kawai NS15 I should do this with the K300, same height, 2500$ price difference.

Markarian, there is certainly no need to apologize for sharing your comments/opinions here on PW. Fact is, you probably know as much about pianos as I do. (Except I don't know a lot... ).

I was basing my comments more so on name brand recognition than anything else. I'm sure there are warn-out used Yamahas and Kawais out there that would better left alone and move on to another prospect.

However, I have been around long enough to understand that the better the name brand recognition, the better the quality and longevity, and resale, as a general rule.

The only way I'd buy another little-known brand piano is if it was really cheap and appealed to me in a special way.

Best of luck to the OP!

Rick

I always got the impression of most Japanese uprights as commodity items (they are certainly treated as so!) for which there was often little reverence or emphasis on individual character. So my enthusiasm at the thought of a "commodity" upright piano older than I am is probably not going to be very up there. Then there's this mystery piano that's brand new, priced competitively, and for which the OP speaks praise. Of course my opinion is going to lean in that direction. I may have missed it, but I don't think the OP gave their location, but I would guess it's somewhere in Continental Europe.

I seem to remember the early 80s saw a flood of imported Japanese manufactured goods where there were uncertain murmurs as to the quality and longevity of their products, everything from cars to stereos. Couldn't one argue that there is a lot of the same sentiment regarding the influx of new Chinese instruments?

Angoriaket, how do the new Kawais sound to you? How do they play, compared to the Liedermann?

Dear all,

It's true that I live in Benelux.
After a week I skipped the Grey market Kawai (ns 15) and the Liedermann because of it's unknow market situation (no brand name).
At this moment I'm waiting to get a good quotation of the dealer for a new Kawai K300. Than I have to chose between the grey market Yamaha u1 from the early seventies or the new Kawai. I'm excited! :-)