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Hi James,

You are right on all counts, of course.

My info may have come from ...

http://www.amazon.com/Kawai-ES8-Digital-Piano-Furniture/dp/B014Q7UIWW

They also seem to be under the false impression that the stand inventory identifier is HML-4.

Hello James

Yes, I am content now! The store sent me an email today and said they had made a mistake and that I will be getting the five year warranty. I have also managed to source the HM-4 pack from else where too. So the ES8 is on its way to me now and I'm pleased my search is over...Well, not quite, I'm looking for a saxophone for myself now.

Kind regards

Angela

Good to hear, thank you for the update Angela.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,

This is my first post on this forum, but I have been reading on it in the past two weeks everything that could help me decide on a digital piano. My budget is 2500EUR (2728 USD according to google) max, and after reading all the threads in this section (Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards) up to page 15 (I mean it, everything), I narrowed it down to a few Kawais (i am presenting them ordered by price on thomann.de). Please have a look at my list and my comments on each and help me decide. I desperately need this help since I need it as soon as possible and I don't have where to test any of these myself in my entire country (Romania, Eastern Europe). Please excuse the length of this post, and also my English not being good enough.

Kawai VPC1 (1290 EUR, 1399 EUR bundle with Ivory II Grand Pianos, iLok2). Nice, very nice looking to my eyes but a bit big and old for what it is. I am not sure I want to run it through a computer and speakers all the time, especially since my daughter of almost 6yo will be also using it. And it's big for the same reason, cause I would have to place it in my home office, just under my main desk in order to take advantage of the very good audio system that I have there and also of my MacBook Pro that is used on that desk. I also take into consideration the fact that my daughter might want to use it on occasions outside our house for representations in our church or at her school; the church has a very good PA system but I would still need to take the computer with it. I am also not sure about the RM3 Grand II action (a bit old in comparison with the other pianos to follow in this list, two generations behind the best in its class, GF2 > GF > RM3 Grand II from what I understand). And... that's it. Unfortunately (or luckily) there's nothing else to discuss about this board.

Kawai ES8 (1444 EUR). Newest model from Kawai on my list. I like the fact that it has the Shigeru samples (the best onboard piano samples out there) and also I like the fact that it uses the RHIII action which is the newest and arguably the best action for plastic keys out there. The onboard speakers are also welcomed although I may put it also through some better external ones. I like it's portability but it may end being used as a MIDI kb with software and speakers 95% of the time, for which the VPC1 is better. All in all, I am currently leaning towards this one.

Kawai MP7 (1490 EUR). I drooled over this one for the past two weeks. It has so many features, and the older samples and action are sill very good, comparable to the ones in ES8. But again, so many other features... I especially like the fact that you can layer more than two sounds at a time; my daughter is playing only piano (it's an imposed limit by me and her teacher, since she's a beginner and also taking lessons on a acoustic), but I would play a piano layered with strings and choir most of the time, for the type of music (religious) that I am playing. On many other boards in this price range I would have to use a computer for that, and I wouldn't have the same control over sound levels as with the physical faders on the MP7. Not having builtin speakers limits me in a few ways, it comes in between ES8 and VPC1, and since I have to connect stuff to it to play anything I might as well connect a computer too. It's not for gigging, it's mainly for use at home, so in the end it's not here nor there. Anyway... given all the considerations, I almost placed an order for this last Friday. BUT... then I read everywhere about the transformer hum. This kind of sounds are not welcome in my setups. I have a Dolby Atmos setup for my TV, with 5.1.4 speakers, and I had to replace several studio active subwoofers until I finally found one without humming (a Yamaha). I had also this problem with hisses and hums before I switched to using Macs, and since I am a musician (mainly vocal) I simply cannot allow such sounds in my setups. I have a very sensitive ear. I can see it as not being that important if I was gigging with it, but for home play and composing it's not working. One may tell me that if I order one I might not get it, but I doubt it, I am not that lucky. I see that Kawai it's using a cheap transformer which (more or less)/(sooner or later) hums. Still... I keep this one on my list, I don't know why. It may be because it's that good looking.

I stop here to mention that the price of these last two is my sweet spot. I am willing to go up to as much as 2500 but if I get what I want with less money there's almost no reason to go higher. Especially since I need also a few other things in this setup (stand/s, chair, good studio headphones etc.).

Kawai MP11 (2166 EUR). Simply put I like/dislike this one for the same reasons I like/dislike the MP7. For considerably more money I only appreciate the Grand Feel action (but not that much, since it's already one generation behind) and the even better looks (detrimental to size). From what I read the hum it's still there.

Kawai CA67 (2290 EUR). This has almost everything. The best action, the Shigeru sounds, very good speaker system, but... it comes with a cabinet. I would be willing to make the sacrifice, thinking that I would buy another way cheaper one for the out-of-home representations of my daughter, only if that cabinet would have been a polished ebony one. As it is it simply isn't compelling enough. It's a DP, miming an acoustic grand in the physical form of an upright. You cannot get a more fake kind of a DP in my opinion. Off course, I can go for a Kawai CS7 (the same price) for the polished ebony, but then I loose all the other advantages, the GFII and the Shigeru samples. I don't really know if I am willing to trade those for the polished look, since I don't want a cabinet to begin with. Please Kawai, do what Yamaha does, for any given DP with a cabinet give also this option along with the other colors. I would pay several hundred more for it, it's fair.

If only Kawai had a DP with the features of the MP7 and size of the MP11 (because I understand that the GF actions wouldn't fit in a smaller body, otherwise the size of the MP7 is ideal), the Shigeru sounds, the GFII action, builtin speakers for monitoring and light/quick play and an external transformer that wouldn't hum... That's my wishlist for a MP12, and I am willing to pay 2500 EUR for that.

Regarding other brands, the more I look the more I find that for any given price range Kawai has the best features, by far. Off course, one cannot compare a, let's say, Kawai CS7 with a Yamaha CVP709 which is four times the price, and in every way better. But for ME, what I can get for max 2500 EUR is 90% of the things I would ever need in a DP, and for the other 10% the difference in price will never be justifiable.

What are your opinions? Please help me decide. I repeat again here that I am leaning towards the ES8, but for whatever reason I cannot make this decision. I did make it for the MP7 but the humming is a deal-breaker.

Thank you very much,
Stefan

If we're talking speakers and especially action, you can read all the reviews you want, you're still going to have to try the pianos. The idea that RM3 Grand II is worse than RH3 just because it's older is IMHO completely and utterly misguided. Don't forget RH3 is a lightweight, plastic, folded action that's severely restricted by having to keep the ES8 a portable instrument.

Likewise, "For considerably more money I only appreciate the Grand Feel action (but not that much, since it's already one generation behind)" is completely misguided. You will understand instantly if you try RH3 and GF1 or GF2 side by side.

If you're considering the ES8, IMHO you should also try the Roland FP-80. I think it has a better action, better piano sound (though only 1 main sample) and a full GM set. My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think I liked the speakers too over the ES8.

Hi Garf, and thank you very much for your post.

I am sorry if my observations were misguiding. Off course RHIII is worse than RM3 Grand II in VPC1. I was saying that RHIII is in my opinion the best action for plastic keys. And the GF in MP11 may not be worth the difference in price. If only it was GF2, cause price wise MP11 is very close to CA67 which has GF2. That is very annoying, not having a stage piano with GF2 currently on the market.

Regarding the action in Roland FP-80 I don't believe it's better than RHIII. RHIII has everything, from 3 sensors to escapement and counterweights. I tried Roland's here and have found that the action is even worse than the GH/GH3 in Yamaha, which was also not that good. Kawai is not represented here, but Yamahas/Rolands are very common, and I read that Kawai's actions are better than those of Yamaha on any price range. It is like given everywhere I read it on the Internet.

I admit that it's an handicap not being able to test a Kawai, but if I settle for one I would appreciate the local exclusivity .

I wouldn't also buy the ES8 for speakers. It's nice that it has ones but that's only for light/quick play in my setup.

Also, I would say that the Roland is some 300 euros more than the ES8, and I wouldn't also compare the Shigeru samples with the non sampled only modeled sounds of the Roland. That's a strong point in my comparisons. Also, 128 voices polyphony in 2016, for almost 2000 eur? Even Casios of half the price are doing better in every aspect (tried PX560).

I agree with you, Roland PHAIII in FP80 is not even close to RHIII in ES8 or even RHII in ES7... Kawai RHII/RHIII are best plastic DP key actions available today in the market... Cheers!

Hello StefanM

I have very little experience with DP's but, I have had the ES8 for just over a week now and I'm extremely pleased with it. I did not get to try it out before buying either, but I certainly think it is better constructed in its casing, more visually appealing, has a better feel and key action than any I did try in store. Some of those even had wooden keys but did not feel as good to me. I can honestly say I believe that I made the right choice here. Indeed, I find the ES8 so appealing I now want to learn to play it myself!

However, as I only wanted to get it for my son to practice on, my situation seems a little different to yours. It sounds as though you also want one for other purposes and so require extra functions and features (e.g. being able to play three layered sounds. As far as I'm aware, the ES8 plays two). If this is the case then perhaps the MP7 would be better for you? It has a lot more features and sounds.

Moreover, if portability is also important to you then the MP7 is also a little lighter in weight too. I must say one of the things that did surprise me about the ES8 was its weight! I am unable to move it. I think I was perhaps a little naive in thinking that the 'portable' description meant I would be able to move it around my home. Both my son and I are far too happy with the quality, feel and sounds to let this bother us though. It will never leave the house and I can always ask others to move it for me when required. This may not be a problem for you but perhaps could be if you choose the MP11?

All the best in making your decision, I know it's not easy with all that choice out there... As your post demonstrates there is still a lot to choose from even when only considering one manufacturer.

Kind regards
Angela

Speaking of which, I also considered the Casio PX560 a while ago. For the price it has everything, very good key action and on board controls, and it is only lacking somehow in sounds. Which may not be all that bad, and I can always use some VP software, even the grands that come by default with LogicPro that I already have (Steinway, Yamaha, Bosendorfer). For some "gigs" of my daughter's, the built in sound would suffice.

But then again, for a bit more I get the Kawai....

Thank you Angela for your feedback. I am also leaning towards Kawais because of their solid, metal bodies, and the weight isn't such an issue, since I am a very solid man. The thing with the layering in MP7 is very nice, but can be done with software too, only harder. It's such a shame MP7 suffers from that kind of annoying issue, otherwise these days it would have been already in my setup.

FWIW The Ivory-S in the FP-80 has triple sensors and let-off but it's not counter-weighted. The weighting and touch felt better to me despite this. Personal preference, I know, but you haven't even tried RH3!



Which Roland did you try? They have several actions, some variations on one another. Ivory-G isn't good, for example, and I would also prefer GH3 over it.



Buying a piano without testing it is a mistake, but it's your money.



Not having to live with the limitations of a sampler (for the Kawai, mostly the note flattening out after about 4 seconds) is a strong argument in favor of the Roland. Some of the Shigeru samples also suffer from audible timbre steps. The Roland sound is better, overall.

What you do get with Kawai is 3 entirely different pianos. That is an advantage over the Roland, where the alternate pianos are just tweaks on the same base piano.



Is that a feature you actually need? Or are you laying spec sheets next to each other and trying to justify your decision?

Anyway, I have a feeling it's pointless to continue arguing this as you have already made up your mind. The ES8 is a good instrument but it's not without flaws and not clearly better than some of its competition, so I would advise carefully testing it and the alternatives.

The polyphony is certainly important. Especially with stereo sounds, layering and sustaining of all those. It's also about technology, double the spec isn't something to ignore. I have a friend with a Yamaha CP4 with the same, and he complains about it, even puts it like this: If only it had 256 voices of polyphony like all the others.. when I asked him about that board as an option for me. Old SOCs are simply old SOCs.

I tried both FP50 and FP80, and I wasn't also impressed by the RD800. So that's it for me, no Rolands.

Also I don't get your last paragraph. I wasn't arguing and nothing is pointless. I stated clearly in my first post above that I have narrowed it down to those Kawais. I was expecting opinions from those who had really tried one or more out of those DPs. And I didn't make up my mind since I'm still asking for advices, I am just leaning towards the ES8, as the title of the thread also says. And I really thought I gave enough or even to many reasons/explanations...

Anyway, thanks again for your opinions Garf.

I think people here can guess where you read that from.

Opinions on internet are free advice you get from people you don't know.
I understand that you cannot go test the models you're interested in.
But buying a DP you never play is still a risk, no matter how much or how many people love that DP.

If you can return it, go for it.
If you can't, I think at least you should try to find a different model with the same or similar (i.e. older version) key action to try.

Good luck with you search.

Hello StefanM, welcome to the forum.

It's clear that you have invested a considerable amount of time into researching this purchase by reading the forum and play-testing various models from different manufactures.

I believe a positive case could be made for all of the instruments under consideration. However, given your requirements, my recommendation would be to select the ES8, as I believe this to be the most suitable model for yourself and your daughter.

It's also perhaps worth noting that Kawai does have a distributor based in Bucharest, therefore I would suggest contacting the company at the address below for information regarding pricing and availability of the instruments in your country:

GG&SS IMPEX S.R.L.
Sos.Giurgiului NR.121, bl.5, sc.2, ap.55, sector 4, Bucharest, Romania
Tel: +40-21-4234103
URL: http://www.kawai.ro/

I hope this helps - best of luck with your decision.

Kind regards,
James
x

ps. Your English is great!

+1.

At some point, after you have developed a list of candidates, you must trust your own ears and fingers.

After all, it will be _your_ piano, not anyone else's.

Hi James and thank you for responding to this too.

I knew about kawai.ro since last week, but on their website they had nothing from 2015 on. From my list they have only the MP7 on their website. No ES8, VPC1, CA67 etc. Also they don't list any prices. And also I doubt that they have what I want on stock and on display for anybody to try, and even in that case, it's still an 8 hours round trip to Bucharest for me (I live in Sibiu). I took thomann.de into consideration first because I ordered other things from them in the past, the shipping is free for orders bigger that 400 eurs, they deliver in about 5 days, and they have a 30 days return policy (only that in that case I would have to pay for the shipping back, which is 20 EURs for an ES8 and up to 100 EURs for a CA67). Anyway I just got off the phone with kawai.ro, and they said their website is in reconstruction and that in about one week they will have anything up and running again, with the latest products and prices. There was a very nice speaking lady who gave me this information, and she also said that she will be sending to me by e-mail, today, all the information I asked about those products, along with prices and other terms. I'm curious to see how this develops. Sadly, I'll still be buying without trying them first.

About the repeated conclusion of some people here, that I will only know if I try, I completely agree with that. BUT... I have to add that I asked here because not being that good of a pianist (beginner - intermediate), I wouldn't trust only my feelings of it in a quick test. It's not about information, I gathered everything I could and I completely understand every tiny detail, especially regarding technology (I am a programmer in my day job), so the 'spec sheet comparisons', like Garf put it, are done. I happen also to have lots of musicians around with lots of Yamahas, Roland, Korgs etc., and as much as I could I also tried those these 2 weeks; many of these redirected me to Kawai, as before a while ago I didn't know they were that big of a player in this segment. I recall hearing about them from time to time, but they are not common at all around. I remember telling my wife that I am considering now these Kawais, and she was like "Chinese stuff? Really? Go for a Yamaha..." . Funny enough, I only got to test extensively this week those Rolands that were brought into discussion, at some of my peers, and wasn't impressed; moreover even their owners told me to look for something else. That's subjective I know. Anyway... I really wanted feedback from better players around here, new or long time owners of these instruments. That's something one cannot get by simply trying for a bit. Even if I do make the trip to test those Kaways, I wouldn't have anything else in that same store to compare them with. In comparison, there are people here who owned/own lots of DPs along with one or more of the ones that I'm interested in (I see in many signatures people with 3-4-5 boards currently in their ownership), and I appreciate that kind of feedback from them. My conclusion in this respect is that, since I can easily return anything if it bothers me in any considerable way, it's safe enough to make such a purchase.

PS I realize I may seem like a bit crazy and a trouble making customer, because of the long explanations that I gave. I am usually an impulse driven buyer, I have a lot going on in my life and I don't have enough time for myself (4 kids for now, sorry, but it is too good of an occasion to not brag about it ). But lately I am only shopping online (even the groceries), and I seem to get lots of faulty products, from computers to other equipment. And most of the time I am to lazy or I simply don't have the time to pack and return them, so I get stuck with them (the quality of this kind of stuff is really going down in my opinion; planned obsolescence everywhere). So, I am trying to be a bit more careful now. But these two weeks of research for a piano weren't all that bad, it was actually a pleasure, I learned a lot, and it revived my passion for such other, not mercantile, stuff. I am eagerly waiting to get lost again in some good time with such an instrument. Thanks for your patience.

Hello Stefan, thank you for the update.

It's interesting to read your post, including the initial reaction from your wife, and your experience purchasing items online etc.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you have been in contact with our distributor in Romania.

May I wish you the best of luck with your purchasing decision.

Kind regards,
James
x

Yes, thanks James for everything.

The thing is that now, thanks to Garf, I am even more confused. I did some research on the full modeling of the new Roland engine, and I am impressed. So now, the Roland HP605 was added to my list, and the more I read about it the more I am inclined to go for one. I especially liked the limitless decay together with the unlimited polyphony, which for the moment is in it's own league (see this: https://youtu.be/PjM7BHUZN20?t=4m20s). In comparison all the other sampled ones sound fake, just bad copies of some acoustics. That full modelling is turning those DPs into instruments with full rights, as they are creating the sound that they produce in real time as opposed to just playing/layering/equalizing of some recordings. It's like a live representation vs playback. I know that you can achieve the same with Pianoteq, so I'll be looking into that more too.

For that, I thank you again Garf, and I apologize for being so ignorant. It's true that I only got to test older Rolands, which were using samples and had worse keyboards than the PHA-50 in HP603/HP605/LX7/LX17. These ones are not available here, off course, so thomann.de will be again the source.

I will not be posting my updates here anymore, as I am not leaning anymore towards the ES8. The battle is know between Kawai CA67 and Roland HP605. I think the CA67 still has the (way?) better keys, and maybe better speakers. But the HP605 has in my opinion the better sound, with unlimited possibilities.

Kind regards,

Stefan

Hello Stefan, thank you once again for the update.

I can appreciate your interest in the latest Roland HP/LX instruments, especially given your background as a computer programmer. I agree that the promise of a fully-modelled sound engine is very impressive, however I would still encourage you to play-test all of the instruments under consideration to ensure that you enjoy how the instrument sounds and plays.

Best of luck with your ongoing search!

Kind regards,
James
x

Also, VPC1 with Pianoteq is an option, although given the inconvenience of the setup, it would be at the bottom of the list. It is a well regarded solution apparently ( forum link).