Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Piano purchasing approach, used or new?

While I have not at all yet made up my mind whether I need an acoustic piano at all, I am wondering what the approach is to buy one: used or new.

I have no personal requirement or preference for a new piano. At the moment I actually think that a used one would have the benefit of having been played and therefore “broken in” / settled.

Lets assume I want to spend less than, but up to 10k EUR and because of size it needs to be an upright. I live in a larger city and therefore there is no lack of shops that sell new and used, no lack of technicians etc. Used pianos get offered via craigslist / ebay and equivalents all the time (at least one per day, although mostly clunkers) and there are also a few piano technicians that sell used / refurbished pianos with a three year warranty and the like.

Thinking through this, it probably makes no sense to buy a used piano that is older than, say, six (?) years from a private person. When approaching ten (?) years, a significant overhaul requirement becomes more likely and then I better buy a used piano from a shop who brought it at good price from ebay and did all the necessary repairs already.

So given all that, is there a reason why I would want to buy a brand new upright? What are the reasons for buying new anyway? Here is what I can think of:

- no regional used market (e.g. too little population or just nothing from the brand you prefer).
- no good ability to verify the quality of used pianos (i.e. no piano technicians available).
- personal preference or status requirements to buy new. Or “treating yourself” (fair enough!).
- no or small time window to shop for a piano.
- need for latest silent/anytime technology.

Any other reason? Thanks!

I've never purchased a brand new piano, though I would love to have a brand new one...

My piano purchases have been limited to pre-owned, but fairly high end (with a couple of exceptions, before I knew better ).

In my view, if you can find a private owner wanting to sell their piano for whatever reason, that is usually where you get your best deals/values. Many here on PW will tell you to buy the piano you like, and not the deal. But pianos cost big money.

For example, in 1980, I paid $33,196 to have my 1300 square foot new brick veneer home built on my property. It would be hard for me to grasp the concept of paying more for a piano than I paid to have my home custom built. Of course, I've added on to my home a few times since then, but you get the idea.

You could feasibly pay less than half the cost of a name-brand piano that is only 10 years old or less.

Of course, as with anything used, condition is the most important criteria, as a general rule.

For example, you could buy a pre-owned Yamaha or Kawai (or other well-known brand) in like new condition for, lets say $15,000 where a new one would cost $30,000 or more.

It really depends on your desires, your goals, and, especially your budget.

That's my .02... I'm sure you will get more opinions and comments.

Good luck,

Rick

Hey, I am sorry, I just noticed you where in Germany !

Do not worry then you are in the land of pianos, you need to refine your desire, but you will find , it will not be too difficult.

Just refine your inquiry, there are many second hand pianos in very good condition in Germany.

Some effort is necessary of course , some time, and finding a tech to help you, as he will take care of the piano if you can involve him from scratch that would be better.

Not all techs will take time for that but I am sure you can find, some one with a diploma, not a piano teacher that tune pianos for instance.

Good luck

You can PM me, if I can give you some pointers, I will if time permit.

A customer of mine bought a Bechstein 130 , 8 years old, for 8000 euros,( plus transportation tuning, a little maintenance, not so much. in the end)

He waited about 6 months, we where in touch as he did send me some announcement and we discussed about. He did see the sale, took the train, and bought the piano.

He is German so it was easier for him.

All the best. Good luck.

In my experience as a player, every piano older than about 10 years will have distinctive quirks that you just play around--there is still considerable music left in them, for the most part. Which quirks are tolerable to own until major refurbishment or rebuilding is necessary varies from one piano and one pianist to another.

Doesn't this apply whether or not technicians are available? Unless you know pianos yourself AND have an established relationship with a technician.

P.S. The word "diplom" in Olek's post caught my eye. I imagine there are indeed some "Diplom Technicians" in Germany, meaning a long formal full-time training and effectively a state license. This would be a special case.

Not necessarily true. It doesn't take that long to break in a piano and most are broken in at the factory on pounding machines.

While newer is often better, that's only if EVERYTHING ELSE is equal. Six seems completely arbitrary to me. The quality of the piano when first purchased and the care it has received are more important. Ten years is nothing if the original piano is high quality, it has been well taken care of, and not played to death.

A rough rule of thumb is that ten years for a used piano is like one year for a used car. So, that ten year old piano is almost new.

Absolutely

40 year old German good quality , all original, still are mostly in need of new strings as a major quirk (and hammers)

But you can play them with pleasure, often.

10 years is nothing in amator's hand.

Involving a valuable technician, if possible, is the best thing to do . It can work

PS Yes there are different grades diploma, in Germany, a very good formal and practical trainig is validated; There is an officially recognized diploma in most European countries

ANd now in France a level considered as an university diploma (the same as "piano builder" in Germany.

I gave the 10 year mark because of the soundboard impedance in the critical octave issue that rears its head in about ten years on grand pianos--not sure about uprights. This issue manifests itself in that one or several notes that thud no matter how played around the A above the treble clef (first ledger line).

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about? 😀

the larger the piano the more sensitive the soundboard will be

Small pianos have rarely soundboard trouble, even cracks are less common.

10 12 years is known as the point where S&S soundboards will have settle and the instrument is a bit less dynamic in some region, but those are specific soundboards with more build in stress than most, hence that initial settling.
Once done , the situation can stay as it is for decades, I even played a 1890 D that had no hole in the tone (they say 100 years, does not mean much in the end, as it is a question of keeping the instrument out of large seasonal changes)

Old instruments kept in old concrete houses in moderate climates can sound very good (all things being equal)

so the 10 years mark does not come of thin air either

In my limited experience, I have many more positive experiences with upright pianos from 1905 - 1929 or there abouts. My experiences with pianos around 1950 - 1970, not so good. I do not notice these 10 year problems talked about but I do notice the lower quality parts. Maybe because lower quality pianos from 1920 are in the junkyard.

Another reason is that a lot of fine piano makers went broke in the depression, so 1929 is the cutoff date.

All, thanks a lot for your input. Much appreciated!

Yes, there is the "Klavierbaumeister" a certification that requires 3,5 years or so of education and there are a few of them here. Some have shops where they sell what they refurbish/repair, some don't. But most can be hired for an educated opinion if one does want to buy from private.

I visited a piano shop today where they had mostly Yamaha and Schimmel and many of them. Like about three to five of each upright model. Also some others: one Bechstein, two Blüthner, three Steinway, but dozens of Yamaha and Schimmel.

Yamaha they had used and new. Very easy to play a three year old vs a new one. I asked for a used Schimmel just to see if the action might change over the first year or so and they said they don't currently have any and usually don't have them long. They attributed this to the Schimmel being more expensive and therefore being brought more/mostly by people who already know what they want. And therefore are less likely to change their mind.

So it occurred to me that it would probably easiest to judge a good deal when comparing "young" (less than about ten years) pianos from vendors of which there actually is a used market. I.e. which sell in quantities to people who then do not keep them for life e.g. because the child does not actually take up piano.

Because there is a significant used market there is enough data to compare prices. Because the pianos are not old there is low likelihood of damage.

I'll have to watch the market for a while to find out if that restricts me too much to Yamaha and Kawai. :-)

Failures in the soundboard are due to the condition of the soundboard (or original materials/craftsmanship flaws), not a magic number. I've played some truly wonderful pianos from the 1920s with original soundboards (but otherwise fully rebuilt).

"Guten Tag" Hendrik: how is the motherland doing [Angela Merkel being the mother.. ]

I always found Germany to have a lot of quality used pianos but you need to look. It also depends where you live: the Black Forest has of course much less pianos to offer than cities like Berlin,Hamburg, Frankfurt and Munich.

And then there's also the many repair shops often owned by "Klavierbaumeisters" who are doing top work on their stock.[usually...]

If still in doubt compare prices with Thomann, world's largest music internet shop. http://www.thomann.de/gb/pianos.html

Thomann has a large number of pianos with prices that anger most German piano stores. His service is reportedly outatanding and if not happy - takes a piano back - no questions asked. Even pays the move...

Consumers here could only wish this policy would exist on this continent..

Happy hunting and - viel Glueck!

Norbert

Thomann : this is not how you buy a piano prepped, unless you can visit a show room, choose the piano, have it prepped then only give your agreement for it to be delivered.

They are certainly honest, and accommodating.

You really envisage piano sales that way ? it is price selling then.

One need a web of good technicians to work that way.

Good sales conditions those days include a tech visit after some time.

check the location of the piano, begin to stabilize tuning, control voicing and regulation.

Actually, pianos are really hard to judge on the internet except perhaps for recent ones like Yamaha and Kawai. About 30 mins at a piano showroom with a variety of new and old instrument may blow away everything you imagined after all your research. For instance you might prefer an older little used European piano at half the price to a 5 year old Yamaha and so on. The market for pianos in general is highly imperfect and you have to shop around for the best deal for you. Of course you can narrow the search by limiting your brands, outlets and timescales; for example move to Vancouver and see what Norbert can offer you this week.

Good luck.

It is quite bizarre when you think about it. Used vs. new. For example, there is a number of shops here that sell Yamaha and Kawai. Its all the same warranty. Its all the same service (they'll deliver and tune). There is a little difference in how many months of renting the piano will be counted against purchase (some only 9 months, some 12).

But that is it. So what is anyone preventing from picking up the phone and calling all the shops and see where the best deal is to be found. You could probably do some kind of inverse auction.

Heck, you could do this across the country, really. At least in Germany, but probably as well in other EU countries if the road to your house will not kill normal delivery trucks. :-)

Used ones, this is different, because there is the "used how", by whom, which original vendor. And the piano-shops are probably first point of contact if someone wants to sell. And maybe music schools. There was a note for a 10 year old Schimmel S 116 (with silent system) at the local music school today: 3000 EUR. Because the child is switching cities for university. Sounds like a steal.

If only I knew yet if I like Schimmel :-)

But I fully agree on spending time in shops. Especially the shops that do not only have one Japanese and one German brand (which seems to be a thing here). The variety blows my mind.

I'll need a year just to find out which sound I like best.

Ah well, I am not in a hurry. This is so much fun. Thanks all!

I am still trying to figure out what arguments would be to buy new, not used. But one thing seems to be clear, it lessens the burden of choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice

There is at least one used piano showing up every day on local ebay / craigslist equivalent and 80% are "brands" I have never heard of. Amazing.

Indeed, just like with cars, you typically get more for a given amount of money buying used. The only reason to take the big depreciation hit is if you have loads of money, and really want to have a new instrument.