Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Competitions

I have a parent who keeps asking me to enter her boy in competitions, My recitals aren't enough now that she's learned her son's friend is entering competitions. He's not ready, IMO. He played way too fast and sloppy and thinks that fast means good. I can't emphasize enough how musicality is what makes a performance. They also "screen" the music I select.

I'm also hesitant because my student load (over 35) keeps my very busy with 3 recitals a year. I spend a great deal of time researching exciting and appealing music for each of these students. Also, as a music store teacher, I am reluctant to say, lessons are only 1/2 hour long and we are paid more than half of what a private teacher makes per hour. About 85% of teachers in the store do not enter students into competitions.

Her son came to me as a transfer student and was in Bastien Level 1. In one year, I moved him to PA Level 3. He is now playing Level 4-5 pieces. She was thrilled with my teaching and his progress and I am now also teaching his sibling. But I am beginning to feel that she may need a more competition oriented teacher.

Send them to a "competition-oriented" teacher.

I don't know how competitive the festival/competition scene is in your area. In California, we have a plethora of festivals/competitions of varying degrees. There's something for everybody, from the very advanced to the not so advanced.

However, if the festival/competition scene is limited, then you might find yourself competing with little kids who come in with these huge pieces. It is not unheard of that kids as young as 6 are given Bach Inventions and Mozart Sonatas.

Chasingrainbows, first off, you can increase his lesson time. You can do a lot with longer lesson time, even twice a week. Inform/convince the parent the need for it. My competition students see me at least twice a week, sometimes more as the competition draws closer. Start by entering smaller local competitions. Lay out clear policies: how often you wish for him to do try, how long his practice time, frequencies of lesson time, etc, etc. You don't have to rule out yourself as a non-competition teacher. A little competition helps to boost your studio and your reputation. (However, teaching for competition is another "ball game" all together. It is so much more intense and only selected few students can withstand the regiment).
PS. 3 recitals a year? That's a lot to prepare for. Most of us are doing twice a year. I find myself scrambling to prepare advanced students for Fall recital in just 3 months: students returning in September and the Fall recital is often in late November or early December.
Good luck!
(PM me if you need more tips on preparing for competitions).

AZN: What I have determined is that our area teachers register students in ABRSM, MTNA and a few small local performance events. I would need to extend his lesson time to 45 minutes (as suggested above by Asiantraveler - thank you and the mom was reluctant to do that. They don't want to spend money, so it surprises me they would pay to enter competitions.

In my opinion, this is just a case of "keeping up with the Joneses."

As far as my store colleagues, out of 7 piano teachers, 2 have entered students in MTNA and ABRSM.

Asiantraveler - thanks for the suggestions. I did tell the mom we would need 45 minute lessons per week for ABRSM, but she declined. We are not only teachers, but miracle workers.
Thanks for the PM invitation - I will do that.

I don't know about MTNA, but I'm surprised that you lump ABRSM in with "competitions" and "recitals".

It's neither, and the ABRSM syllabus just provides for all-round musicianship - not hot-housing for a few make-or-break recital pieces that have to be memorized, and which are the be-all and end-all for the student. There is no requirement to memorize the set pieces - and no-one in my experience as a student ever played from memory: I certainly didn't. (You don't get extra marks for playing from memory, unlike for RCM exams).

I can't see any justification for pushing recitals and competitions onto children, unless the child himself is keen to do them. Are they an ego trip for parents (or teachers)? Exams that require teachers to teach all-round musicianship (i.e. including sight-reading, aural skills etc) are an entirely different matter - after reading so many posts in PW about the lop-sided (or totally inept) teaching some students have experienced, made me relieved that I was taught through the ABRSM system when I was a student, even though I found the exams stressful at the time.

BTW, all my weekly lessons were half an hour until Grade 5, when they were extended to 40 minutes - only because I was at a boarding school then, and my lessons were during school time. More than sufficient time for my teacher to teach me new pieces as well as cover the ABRSM syllabus and prepare me for the annual Grade exams.

In my opinion, this is just a case of "keeping up with the Joneses."

It's easy to feel that stress, in some groups if people hear my daughter takes piano they right away ask what level she has tested at and they look confused when I say she isn't a level. Part of me wants to say she is at X in this book and Y in this books and testing at Z. the other part of me remembers it isn't anyone's business.

Good for you!

bennevis, yes, I stand corrected. I realize that ABRSM is not a competition, but it includes a standard of graded tests, correct?

Yes, it tests the student in several aspects from Grade 1 to 8, with sight-reading, aural skills, scales & arpeggios as well as set pieces. Only the scales & arpeggios need be played from memory. There is no possibility of picking & choosing which parts of the exam you want to do, unlike in the Guild. Therefore, if you're playing pieces at say, Grade 3, you also have to be able to sight-read etc at that standard. That way, if a student has passed Grade 3, you can safely assume that he hasn't just been taught his set pieces by imitating his teacher note for note, and unable to do anything else....

There's no competitive element in it, and there's no audience, just the examiner who writes a detailed assessment on all aspects of your playing and musicianship, together with the marks.

I found that the grading system was remarkably consistent, even between different instruments - for instance, I joined up with a violinist who was at the same Grade as me, and we pretty much had similar levels of musicianship and sight-reading skills (we sight-read our way through the Mozart and Beethoven violin sonatas with equal incompetance, and learn a few of them to play for fun).

In the UK (and many other countries around the world where ABRSM exams are almost mandatory for music students), a student's standard is judged by the Grade he's achieved, and the requirements for entering music schools etc is therefore straightforward. For instance, the BBC requires that any applicant for the BBC Young Musician Competition to have at least Grade 8 Distinction on their instrument. The National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain similarly sets minimum standards for its applicants. You won't get anomalies like a young violinist playing a Paganini caprice flawlessly only to discover that he can't actually play anything else, and can't sight-read the first violin part of a Haydn symphony.....

Well, in that case, refer them to the competition experts. Really. They actually do exist. Teachers-in-the-know can instantly wake up these parents to the realities of the competition circuit, which include:

1) 2 lessons per week, 60 to 90 minutes each.

2) 3 hours of daily practice, minimum

3) playing the same repertoire for over a year

4) hiring teaching assistants to monitor the practice between lessons

5) workshops, recitals, and lesser competitions--performing the piece several times before the BIG competitions

If they want to "keep up with the Joneses," then they better be prepared to spend money and devote time/energy like the Joneses.

AZN, you are right on point. Because of the type of preparation needed to successfully compete, teaching one half hour lesson per week and the less than desirable amount of practicing done at home, will not nearly prepare this boy for competition. Mom posted a video of his playing of Fur Elise that I somewhat unwillingly agreed to teach him. The performance was mediocre, but to his FB followers, you would think it was Beethoven himself playing. How can I enlighten the parents as to the depth of work involved to make this competition-ready?

This is one of the drawbacks of teaching in a music store. Parents expect in a half hour at half the price, to get the same in depth training a private teacher would give.

We do the 30 minutes a week of lessons and she is taking an ABRSM exam this year. I have to say that piano has been a lot less fun because when you prepare for them, there isn't much more that can be covered in 30 minutes a week.

As it is, theory has been moved to a student and a teacher's book. She gets an assignment, does it and then checks the answer. If she doesn't understand it, she asks at the next lesson. It's really crammed for time - both her teacher and her have to be super focused and go in with a plan. I think this will be the only time she tests and it was the teacher's suggestion. it has made paino more like work for her than fun.

how can it work if the student is willing to practice enough?

I can't even imagine doing testing with 30-minute lessons. 45-minute lessons would be pushing it. What level are we talking about?

In the upper levels, I can barely cover the repertoire and technical requirements for CM at 60 minutes per week.

How about up to Grade 5 ABRSM?

If a completely untalented student (yours truly) can easily do one Grade exam a year on a 30-minute weekly lesson, and still learn lots of new pieces under his teacher, and learn lots of stuff on his own, for his own personal pleasure, why can't the majority of other students - assuming they are practicing? (I assume they are practicing......).

But note - one grade a year, and I didn't skip any grades. I wasn't being hot-housed, quite apart from the fact that I wouldn't have managed it.

it's a low level.

I want to discuss this in two different directions.

First, some of it is spot on, and I love the quip at the end!

If you want to enter competitions, there are some prerequisites, and going into competitions on the cheap does no one any good, least of all the poor kid.

There is the competition mindset that is close to the tiger-mom stereotype. This is consuming, usually parent-driven, and often over the top (as opposed to From the Top).

On the other hand, competitions don't have to be that all-consuming. And they don't have to be painful experiences for the over-pushed young one.

Two lessons per week? Maybe. My eldest only had two lessons per week in the immediate run-up to an important event.

Lessons were 60 minutes, not 90.

The repertoire was indeed brought to a pitch of (hoped for) perfection, and this took a while. Certainly not a year, unless something was brought back from an earlier year's study for a particular event and polished again. And the competition repertoire was only a fraction of the literature worked on in any given year.

"I" was the teaching assistant. It was fun.

I don't think I ever got three hours of daily practice out of him. Two was more the norm. Then again, he didn't have Juilliard aspirations.

And that's the final point. One can do competitions, enjoy them, and have reasonable success, even if all the "i's" aren't dotted and all the "t's" aren't crossed. But you can't do this if the kid isn't "in" to the idea. And you do have to take them quite seriously.

Well, that parents was just ask about whether their kid can enter competitions correct? They didn't say they expect their kid to win though correct? Some enter competitions want to win, some just want to experience or just keep up with the jones. In my opinion, only the ones who want to win needs to spend more time on it.

I've actually heard the same person playing the same piece at several different competitions spread out more than a year apart. It's done a lot more frequently than you think.

There's a teacher a few blocks from me who makes her students keep the same piece for more than 2 years before the "big" competition. I would be bored out of my mind if I had to play the same thing for TWO years!!!

Oh, I understand the process. All I'm saying is that it's only one way to "do" competitions. And it's probably not the best approach if you want to develop the musicianship of most kids. Or hold their interest.

Winning and/or keeping up with the Jones's.

This is the "evil dichotomy" story I often hear from people who have firmly made up their mind that the whole competitive process is the devil's workshop.

In this view, the whole idea of being better than other musicians is a horrible thing, driven largely by the parent's insecurity (keeping up with the Jones's). The process is simply ethically noxious.

If someone is not enamored of the competition scene, then by all means they should not subject themselves or their students to it. But if people project their views about its horribleness as universal truths, prepare for occasional pushback.

The dichotomy begins with the presumption that peoples' motives are all suspect (except, of course, the teacher's who despises the process).

I rant.

I too am fully capable of ranting.

Where does the child (student) come into all this?
Is he just fodder for the parent's twarted ambitions?

Yes, there are many children who enjoy showing off to others, and many of them will enjoy competitions. But there are others who are pushed into competitions by their parents, who enjoy the adulation by proxy. I have no problem with the former category of children being encouraged to participate, as long as they're mature enough to realize that there are losers as well as winners. For the latter category, what I think of those parents is probably better left unsaid in a family forum.....

When I read AZN's view of the pressure/dedication it takes to participate in the competition world, I felt so sad because I thought of young children being subjected to this treatment. If the children being subjected to this treatment are very young- then I feel like they are being robbed of their childhood- and that makes me want to cry. I know that personally competitions are not where I want my son to be at 8 years old. I don't think many 8 year old children would enjoy this lifestyle either at least the way it was described.

However, if the children participating in such a regime are older and self-driven then perhaps it's a good use of the child's time. It sure beats a lot of other ways that teenagers spend their time.

Just wanted to clarify: Those aren't necessarily MY views. I agree with some of those ideas, but heaven forbid I cannot imagine doing that to my students!!

But the Chopin International Competition is coming up in just a few days, and I for one can't wait to listen to all those incredibly talented young pianists! But I see your point. I don't like the Miss America pageant for the same reasons you state above.

Check out the Federation of Music Clubs. They hold festivals which are not competitions per se but the students play for grades and comments. The students who do well at the local can go on to State and National levels.

www.federationofmusicclubs.org

I know that the Guild also holds events as does the MTNA. I never let elementary students compete in anything that is too much pressure. Once they get to middle school and above I think it's ok. if the students wants to compete.

Doreen Hall

Great to know that you allow your student to compete as long as they want to. My teacher only send the good ones out. She didn't even bother to send the not so good ones even if they want to. In my opinion, if won't be too much pressure for students, if they just want the experience out of it and not to win. Maybe I am wrong. But that is just I am thinking.

Pavanne,

Do you mean this federation:

National Federation of Music Clubs

They do indeed sponsor low pressure graded events, but they also sponsor high level competitions with awards.

That sounded horrible to me when I read it.

I couldn't imagine forcing my own kids through that.

And yet.......... that is routine for most sports. Soccer, swimming, gymnastics, skating, you name it. Coaching, clinics, daily practice, diet, the weight room, video review, the works.

And that's just the preparation. The actual combat can have a place in producing high level performance too.

Well, now you know why my kids never got an athletic OR music scholarship to college, and why I'm still working to pay off college loans when I'd like to be retired. Hee, hee.

Well, the often unknowable thing is whether a scholarship of some sort (price reduction), or an acceptance, was in part based on the non-grade characteristics of the student.

Then again, eldest didn't engage in competitions because there might be some very long run prospect of getting a scholarship. He did it because he enjoyed doing it.

There's no problem here. Just say what your requirements are for students wishing to compete. State, "If you wish to compete, these are the requirements. Bear in mind, I do not feel your son is ready to compete. But if you wish to have him compete, I need to see him twice per week for x minutes."

In truth, he should already be bumped up to 45 minute lessons. That would be your next goal.

You could also let him fail at a competition. He and his mother may need to see how hard another student has worked to fully understand what goes into a competition. I wouldn't worry about it reflecting on you. He will just sound like another kid who hasn't practiced enough.

But are we selling music students short?

A coach would never tell an athlete that. He'd just lay out what the kid has to do and expect it will happen, and leave it to the parent to back away.

Athletes, even amateur ones, routinely put in effort far beyond what we let musicians get away with. Of course, they probably had parents who did the same, and it's partly a cultural thing.

As an amateur athlete myself (though I'm not sure I'd glorify my alter ego with the term "athlete" though I had a coach for three years) who has participated in several hundred races of all types (5K to road marathons, 3K cross-country to trail races to Everest Marathon, adventure races etc) I've always put in maximum effort in all of them, though I've never come remotely close to winning any of them.

But I know many people in my running club and elsewhere who use those races purely as a means of running - and enjoying themselves - in nice (often beautiful, in trail & mountain races) surroundings, with audiences cheering them on . And I don't see anything wrong with that - after all, if you're not an elite, why not use a race as a substitute for your usual long weekend run?

If I was stupid enough to take part in a piano competition, I'd do the same as for a race - prepare thoroughly and try to win, against all odds. But I also know amateur pianists for whom it's the taking part that matters. For some of them, it's purely a learning experience; for others, it's a chance to show off to an audience. They already know they have no hope of winning, so why not just take the pressure off and enjoy themselves?

Not everyone (whether athlete, team player or musician) wants to push themselves, nor even put in the effort to give a respectable performance. Some couldn't care less (or, "some could care less" in USA-speak)..........

There are a range of competitive piano events, and just having a performance experience works better at some of them than others. People (students and/or parents) have to understand that, and pick what they want accordingly.

But in general, an attitude of... "oh, I'm just gonna have some fun" isn't a good approach for most of them if that means the student/family doesn't take the event at all seriously. Preparing thoroughly is rather important, and a lot of people don't really understand what that means. They have to learn. That's why teachers do have a role in informing families that competitive events, even small local ones, demand a certain attitude and willingness to work. That's one of the potential benefits!

Competing in a local event can be fun, even if the student has little chance of winning. But it's still important to prepare the student well, and to instill a real work ethic. If they approach the event with some seriousness then they have a really good chance of getting the best out of the experience. If they're poorly prepared, and it shows, there is little to gain.

That actually could backfire. Not all competitions are judged by capable musicians, and even capable musicians have bad days.

It is not uncommon to have very hardworking students not win anything, simply because the judges disagreed with the interpretation. Or, worse, some judges go to these events with hidden agendas, and they on purpose judge the advanced students harder than the less-advanced students. My students have been on both sides of the hidden agendas: winning when MUCH MORE advanced students were shot down, and being shot down when their music is too advanced compared to the rest of the field.

All I can say is DON'T put too much weight on the competition's outcome. At the end of the day, music is highly personal and subjective.

AZN, I'm not quite clear on how it would backfire. Do you mean that a student who didn't work hard could still win?

The role of the adjudicator is to judge the interpretation, not the amount of work the student did, nor the degree of difficulty.

I think music is less subjective than perhaps you do. For instance, yesterday, I watched a show on Justin Beiber. I couldn't find one tune in the whole show that was objectively beautiful. His music doesn't sound musical to me. I can hear that his vocal quality could touch a young teenage girl's heart, but I couldn't imagine the music itself would stir any child if it were played on the flute.

Well, you picked a rather easy target there.

Judging can be idiosyncratic. As AZN says, all teachers must prepare competition-level students to deal with strange results. Roll with the punches and enjoy the process. That's not the same as pure fatalism, but getting all bent out of shape because of the judging is a recipe for an ulcer for the teacher and for cynical backlash from the young one.

I haven't seen too many high level competitions whose winners weren't clearly well prepared. That's just not much of an issue. They're all thoroughly prepped and well practiced. I have disagreed with outcomes, sometimes strongly, but never because I thought a really unprepared student came away with the award.

With all due respect, but in my neck of the wood, if it wasn't for "keeping up with the Joneses", many piano teachers would not be teaching piano...

My son competed for a number of years until this year when he wanted to focus on math and tennis competition instead of pianos. I can tell you that this year other than the couple pieces prepared for his recitals, none of his pieces that were passed by his teacher were recordable, i.e. good but not great. Sometimes, a competition can be a motivator for a student to "perfect" a piece.

BTW, for us competition is not about him winning one, but rather it's an opportunity for him to "perfect" a piece and perform it in front of an unfriendly audience. It requires focus, patience, dedication, etc, characteristics that would help him in life.

Many parents are ignorant when it comes piano study! We were one! Luckily, my son had teachers who would explain to us what it takes to do well in competition. I suggest that you do the same for the parents of your students. You owe them that!

Cheers!

I think you have to know the student, be realistic about your goals, and be realistic out loud with the student and family.
Some students enjoy competitions and they can be one of many great ways to test the waters of music outside of the little world of their family and home studio.
The real reason to go to competitions is to get those written evaluations of the student's playing from knowledgeable judges. Those are incredibly helpful for student, parent, and for me too.

I am happy to support students who want to go to competitions, but I don't intend to turn my studio into a competition-focused studio. When I've taken a student to a competition, we've prepared like any other performance -- they play music they already have mastered (and I don't consider a piece mastered until they can give a good performance of it). The lessons in the weeks leading up to the performance include run-throughs of the performance piece and maybe some polishing, but most of the lesson time is spent on other things.
We prepare to give a good performance, not strategize about how to win.
Sometimes someone does win something which is great and fun but not the point imho.
I try to get some information about the competition, I make sure the judges are worth the registration fee, I make sure the student and parent are aware that there will be kids half their age playing advanced music.
If I think a student is insufficiently prepared for any performance, at any kind of event, I will either pull the student from the event if I have control over that, or if not I strongly recommend that they pull themselves from the event.
If a kid seems truly unhappy or stressed about any performance, at any kind of event, I talk it over with them and the parent and try to either modify the situation or pull them out.

I don't think I would encourage anyone to participate in the kind of competition where the entry fees are so expensive that they basically have to count on winning something to not suffer a large financial loss. Unless they are trying to start a concert career at age 12. In which case I am the wrong teacher for them.

I do think you should be realistic with the family about their chances and the work required, find out what their motivations are, and only take the student if it would be a good learning experience AND if the student is totally prepared.

As a true lover of music, and a very committed piano teacher, I am not interested in students whose parents' reason for signing them up is to keep up with the Joneses. Those students can join soccer or swim teams.

and yet, isn't there a dilemma here?

Those students on the soccer and swim teams practice for hours every single day, go to competitions every single week, do exactly what their coach says, watch their diet and manage their weight to the ounce, go to clinics every vacation, watch educational DVDs in their spare time, and reach a high standard of performance.

There are piano students who do the same but I suspect it is far less than 1% of the total.

Yeah, I'll bet very few piano students manage their weight to the ounce.

Nor do all athletes. But wrestlers or anybody else who competes in a weight class has to do that very well.

I recently read Ronda Rousey's autobiography. As a judo competitor, she had to make weight every week, and really couldn't eat much all year, especially after a growth spurt. Now in MMA she competes at 135, but she says she only weighs that for about 4 hours a year.

There are different levels of competitions, and the dedication required varies for each. In my son's case, he never took more than one lesson per week, and a lesson is only 60 mins long. He practices an hour+ a day whether preparing for a recital or a competition.

Competition can be a stressful event or it can be a showcase of one's ability. It's up to the parents to decide. For us, it's strictly a performance. The result really does not matter. We always have a big bash after each...

With all due respect, take a look at your students' faces at the next recital to see how many really want to be there. I have an even bet that many would rather be at the pool or chase soccer balls if they were given a choice

Well, it's usually a bit of both no matter what level of competition we're talking about. Some young people thrive on a little frisson of fear. It's part of the charm of public performance (or public speaking, or so many other parts of professional life). Even for those who don't love stress, learning to control one's emotions under stress can be a good thing.

I haven't had the good fortune to have a student so committed.

Ha! All my students participate, and I do not pressure any of them to do so. They seem to enjoy the experience. I probably looked terrified while waiting to perform at recitals. After a successful performance, I was elated. After a poor performance, not so much. It's part of the music experience.

That is the thing, many teachers get their students to play the hardest thing the students can ever play (or can hardly play) for recital.

It need not be so, if you have them to play pieces well under their control, they can have much higher chance for a successful performance, and feel good about it.

Of course, that's a priority. I've had many students play their recital pieces without any problems during lessons, and then fall apart on stage.