Yes, this has been discussed before but I believe this is important enough to be brought up often for all the newbies who don't live here.

This first pic demonstrates tipping the piano on the lyre.
It is how they get the piano off the moving skid and onto the floor.



The pic below is why your should tell your dealer (WELL BEFORE delivery day)[/b] that you will not allow the movers to tip YOUR piano on its lyre.
They lyre is not designed to take the weight of the piano, especially at an angle, or off axis.



It is possible to set up a grand without tiping on the lyre.
See below pic.
A simple plywood fixture allowed it then they delivered my Bluthner - a 9'2" at that!

The wood is slightly longer than the lyre so no pressure is put on the lyre.

I like to post this pic from time to time in hopes that movers everywhere will copy the idea.

I think it is brilliant.
It is cheap to make, much cheaper than those big metal frame ones.
It prevents any weight being put on lyre off axis. (Putting weight on it straight down is bad enough but off axis is worse)
It saves money by eliminating that extra human that would be needed to set up a grand without tipping on the lyre.



Piano movers use minimum manpower.
It saves money.

As they claim, lyres usually don't fail outright during the tipping.
Latent damage or weakened glue joints, or cracks in polyester/lacquer are usually not noticed by the customer.
Most pianos are not moved very often so a little minor damage or weakening of the lyre is no big deal. (especially if the customer is not informed of this issue)

So, everything is nice and everyone is happy, as long as the owners are uninformed.

But I think piano manufacturers have gone on record saying, "Do not tip on the lyre".

I think this is another example of how Pianoworld is perceived by some as good for the customers and bad for the industry.
(Actually it is not really bad since this fixture I posted above can be made for under $50.)

Another fixture I found.

I feel compelled to re-post that I have seen and participated in hundreds, maybe a thousand grand moves rolled on the lyre. This process is the industry standard. The use of fixtures for this process is interesting, but by no means the norm.

It is not the roll on the lyre that causes damage. It is improper technique and mis-handling that causes the damage.

Moving a grand piano is always a risk, but a low one when done by those who know what they are doing. When (if) a piano is damaged in delivery the seller or seller/moving company should stand for the expense of a new piano or repairs to the satisfaction of the buyer.

I know of no manufacturers who have "gone on record saying do not tip on the lyre."

This is not the greatest pic, but here is another interesting metal fixture that allows the piano to roll off the skid and never touch the lyre.

Give someone an internet connection and a nugget of inaccurate information and and you get a very dangerous customer.

One (one many) questions come to mind. Is everyone under the impression that lyres are somehow standardized either across the industry or across a manufacturer's specific line?

2nd question:

Does anyone think that the parenthetical phrase deserves MORE than a parenthetical reference?

Hey, nice avatar.

This link has many pics of some very expensive-LOOKING hydralic jacks that protect the lyre.

http://www.help2move.com/moving-company-grand-piano-moving.htm

Let me EMPHASIZE Kenny's statement

PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY
PRIOR TO DELIVERY

When that step is followed (which is never is), then everything else pretty much falls in step.

Thanks, I edited to make it bold in my initial post.

Does anyone have a better pic than the one I posted of that metal frame fixture that allows the piano to roll off the skid?

I've looked all over, even at piano moving supply websites.
Clearly these fixtures exist but are not popular.

I hope posts like this on Pianoworld will start to change that as informed customers tell their dealers they insist their piano will not be tipped on the lyre.

How difficult is it (if it is possible) to set the piano up on its legs BEFORE[/b] installing the liar? (misspelling intentional)

why?

[/b]

answer: Pretty darn difficult.

By the way, we use a universal jig (the same one seen in kenny's last pic) instead of the lyre to roll up the piano. Why?

It is easier and could be done by one man with little effort. It is also safer and easier on the piano.

Rich, once again I wish I was shopping for a piano.
You are one class act!

BTW I'd love to find a good pic of what you describe, perferrably in use.

Can you tell me the website of the place you got it from (you have my email address if you'd prefer to not post it.)

Or you could even take a nice pic of it in use as a grand it being rolled off the skid.

One pic is worth a thousand words. (a good one is worth two thousand.)

I think the reason it is pretty darn difficult is because all that weight has further to fall if the lyre is not there to stop it early and take the stress.

This means you need more men (or boyley women) to catch it and/or slow it down.

Visualize if the lyre was not there:

"falling" "catching" and "slowing it down" are not terms in a piano mover's playbook. Lyre or not, a falling piano is a claim.

Like this?

Thanks Monica. Your rock!

Does anyone know where these are sold?

This thread needs lyrecs:

"It's the wrong way to tippepiano..."

For what it's worth, I have NEVER rolled a piano over on a lyre and I have NEVER had Keyboard Carriage roll one over on a lyre when they delivered them and set them up. What everyone is attempting to avoid is lowering the piano onto two legs and deadlifting the left side while another guy attaches the leg, while the piano is lifted. I am not a pro and do not do this for a living, but I have never had a leg failure or any damage either. I like the metal fixture, but have yet to use one. I DO love the "Klavier Roller" a lot, but the $30K is a little steep.

OMG John, that Klavier Roller is about the coolest thing I've ever seen.
One person can move a concert grand now.

Now I can finally bring my Bluethner along when I play at the coffehouses.

http://www.klavier-roller.com/

You gotta see these video of this thing in action!
Delivery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppjf9--Sfcs
Removal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDz5Wk1fNuw&feature=related





$30,000 seems cheap compared to the wage and other expenses you'd pay for a delivery guy over the years it would last, not to mention the insurance premiums for disability/workman's comp you'll save.

Think of the work-related injuries this will prevent.


snip

Klavier-Roller system allows the safe removal of grand pianos by just one man!
The Klavier-Roller is fully capable of climbing stairs and taking pianos on to any height of stage or platform. It looks after the piano much better in transit and puts no pressure on the instrument when moving from the horizontal position to vertical.

The Kavier-Roller is the only way to move a grand piano and fully comply with health & safety lifting regulations. If you are going to concerts where Klavier-Roller users are transporting a piano keep an eye out at the end of the concert for the second show of the evening.

We use the piano horse, sold by Jansen. We had our machinist modify ours so that the threaded arm is 1" instead of 3/4". Also the support that the arm slides into is welded onto 3 metal supports instead of 2.


On some pianos, particularly those with Ampico reproducing mechanisms, the horse cannot be used. In those instances we use a shop leg that has been made to fit in place of where the lyre goes during setup:


It is also very helpful if the back of the piano is blocked up prior to tilting. This makes setting the piano up much easier on whatever equipment is being used. On the piano pictured above, both the front and back were blocked up, in order to prevent the piano from tilting on the drawer where the player mechanism resides.

Craigen, a few years ago, Yamaha in their 'tech gazette' advertisement, described a technique for repairing their (and other) lyres. In this, they clearly stated that movers should not tilt their pianos on the lyre. I think we can all agree Yamaha qualifies as a quality, major manufacture.

The Klavier thingy looks very interesting, although I have to wonder if having those big wheels on either side would present a challenge getting through many doorways, and turns that one finds inside most homes.

quote:
How difficult is it (if it is possible) to set the piano up on its legs BEFORE installing the liar?


answer: Pretty darn difficult.
[/b]

Is it difficult because you need more people to set it up? Or what?

When my grand piano was delivered recently, the lyre was attached after the piano was sitting safely on all 3 legs. Three men did the setup. They're professionals and the job definitely required a combination of brains and brawn. They were in control of the piano at all times.

Mary

Even with three men, there is more potential for a slip when setting up the piano and then attaching the lyre. I am not saying pros cannot accomplish this task without incident, obviously they can. I just don't like taking more chances than I have to - and paying an extra man to do it.

(A good driver can also make it home safely without wearing a seatbelt, but I still wear mine - same rationale.)

Unless the piano is 7' or longer, it is not really such a big deal to install the lyre after the piano is on all 3 legs. Like I said, you have to dead lift the corner left on the skidboard as you pivot the piano up on the two already attached legs. This is generally accomplished by two guys. We move my 9 footer every year for my student's recital. I am working with volunteer labor mostly and we have yet to have a mishap. We use 3 guys for the dead lift, but let's face it there is enough mass to justify the extra guy. I personally would NEVER assume that the lyre was happy with the idea of being used as a structural member for support purposes.I have dealt with too many poorly supported lyres over the years I guess. There again maybe that's why the lyres were in such condition.

Many piano retailers and technicians sell Jansen products (I'm one). You might be able to get one here at PW.
http://pljansen.com/piano_horse.htm

--Cy--

As Craigen stated, There are more piano movers that tilt that don't in the piano industry. But why take the chance. I know one thing, you can not tilt on a harp shaped lyre on a Victorian art case piano, Not structurally strong enough.
I know of a moving co. that cracked a Schimmel plexiglass lyre doing the tilt. That mistake was costly in that Schimmel wouldn't manufacture another.

I found myself wondering how a piano would get delivered if every person on this thread (so far) showed up to assist in a hypothetical delivery bringing to the table their own strong opinions on exactly how the piano should be delivered.

I'd want to be as far away as possible -- except maybe to see the klavier thingie negotiate a spiral staircase, inside stairs with a turn, wood-framed stairs or any kind of stairway except the wide, stone double-staircase to the Tuscan villa in the video.

Well I like to think that between the two of us, we'd could sorta just 'take charge'. I'd bring along the proper tool for tipping, and you'd wielding that specially modified Johnny-bar, with his friend 'The perfect size block'. The job would get done safely and efficiently, and we'd have a private chuckle over how easy that was.

So CTP what you're saying is that we'd leave the Klavier roller on the inside stairs with the 180-degree turn halfway up in more qualified hands?

I'm having a piano delivered on Wednesday, and I'm prepared to call and ask that it not be tipped...However, I'm certain that it was tipped when it was setup in the showroom, and will likely be tipped in the showroom when they prepare to deliver it....so...is one more tipping (in my house) really going to make a difference?