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My tech recommends some powder (talkum in german, talk in swedish). I do not know what it is in english.
It's called talcum powder, or just talc.
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Update:
Downweight as said 51 grams (average) at bit more in the bass.
Upweight is about 30-32 grams(!) Does the key has to go all the way up to count? I have the dampers pressed down. This sounds like it is too much.
/Hermerik
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30 32 grams is the UW in treble of Yamahas C3 for instance (for 50g DW) (the UW is higher in the treble as the hammers are lighter, less lead is in the keys)
THe key do not need to rise totally but show that it lift the weight up to about 1 2 mm from top.
BUT BUT, you do not measure the UW from a key fully pushed (as then there is a very strong resistance due to the spring that will push very heavy weights)
only from the moment you feel the begin of letoff resistance (and you are right sustain pedal must be engaged)
For the DW you tap once (or twice) on the part in front of the music desk on the case, , to break friction, if not you will record 2 3 g more.
30 32 g is a very strong UW , the keys tend to stick to the finger It is generally due to heavy hammers;
In time the hammers will be filed and will loose up to 1 G then the DW and the UW will reduce by about 5 6 g
DW in basses could be up to 53 54 g without trouble but generally it goes up to 52gn while in high treble it can be as low as 47 48g
Basses UW is often 22 25 g in mediums 25 27g in treble 28 30
WIth moderate weight hammers
Regulation can help, also when the hammer s will break in more, the tone will be clearer and you will have the impression of a lighter touch
I measured a KAWAI RX2 with 60g DW and 30g UW in the mediums.
The piano was playable by a good pianist.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Hello again,
indeed the keys go up fast; and repetition feels very fast; but a bit on the heavy side if I play fast.
So this means there is no friction problem anymore(?)
I have heard somebody talking about filing the hammers, even the wood parts to make it lighter -- although that sounds like a risky enterprise. To "burn in" the hammers will make it feel lighter?
Distance hammer to strings is about 47-48mm it seems as a first measurement.
Thanks for comments!
/Hermerik
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I've been watching this thread with great interest since it started. So many good ideas given here, but I think you are to the point where a Scott Jones TrouchRail would probably solve all your problems and even allow for greater reduction in weight. I've had two such systems and would always have one. I like a very light action, much beyond the norm. After my tech did everything he could and the TouchRail was added was able to get my down weight to 45gms in the low bass, 40gms in the middle and 35 to 32 grams in the upper. I haven't noticed any negative affects on repetition speed.
Do or do not. There is no try.
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Hello again,
indeed the keys go up fast; and repetition feels very fast; but a bit on the heavy side if I play fast. A heavy touch during fast and loud playing is a symptom of a high inertia action. I have heard somebody talking about filing the hammers, even the wood parts to make it lighter -- although that sounds like a risky enterprise. Extreme caution should be exercised, here. If I were your tech, I'd begin by measuring the hammer mass on every C note and measuring the action ratio. Most hammers can only stand to have about 1g of mass reduction. If the hammers are too heavy, the action ratio may need modification in addition to lightening the hammers, to achieve the desired result. You need a tech who is well versed in solving these problems.
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Hello again,
indeed the keys go up fast; and repetition feels very fast; but a bit on the heavy side if I play fast. A heavy touch during fast and loud playing is a symptom of a high inertia action. This is true. However, to the best of my knowledge a the action in a new Sauter grand does not have more inertia than the actions in other pianos of the same size. Hermerik: if you are used to a low-inertia action, you may need to adapt your technique to a higher-inertia one. The higher the inertia of the action, the more you need to rely on arm weight instead of finger muscles in order not to become tired. Before making important and irreversible changes such as filing down hammers, it would be worth taking some more time to see if you can adapt your playing to your piano. Have you a teacher with whom you can discuss this?
Steinway A grand (1919), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Kawai ES-100 (2019)
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it would be worth taking some more time to see if you can adapt your playing to your piano.
Said like a true tech!
Laissez tomber les mains
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I had a case on the same Bechstein 220 where the hammers where finally changed at the factory
They where heavy, and have been much voiced due to a huge reverberation in the room, then the pianists really could not play it comfortably.
A little too much lead in the keys as I recall .
If inertia is not bothering you Ithink the piano will lighten naturally in time
Reducing the key dip and the stroke a little , regulating a very precise aftertouch, may also help. This being better done after 6 months or one year of playing.
If your place is on the humid side, just too tight balance holes (swollen wood) are enough to create heaviness, a sensation of "slowed" keys, wait for the dry season to judge the touch again.
Last edited by Olek; 10/11/15 12:19 PM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Hello again,
indeed the keys go up fast; and repetition feels very fast; but a bit on the heavy side if I play fast. A heavy touch during fast and loud playing is a symptom of a high inertia action. This is true. However, to the best of my knowledge a the action in a new Sauter grand does not have more inertia than the actions in other pianos of the same size. I'm sure that's true. However, this does you no good if you prefer pianos with low inertia, because most pianos are not set up that way. Hermerik: if you are used to a low-inertia action, you may need to adapt your technique to a higher-inertia one. The higher the inertia of the action, the more you need to rely on arm weight instead of finger muscles in order not to become tired.
Before making important and irreversible changes such as filing down hammers, it would be worth taking some more time to see if you can adapt your playing to your piano. Have you a teacher with whom you can discuss this? It isn't necessarily a matter of technique. Some people just don't like the feel of a higher inertia action. I am one of those people, and I was a piano major.
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A 51 gram down weight and a 31 gram upweight is light and fast. If there is a question of inertia, where would you prefer it to be - lead in the keys or in a big resilient high quality hammer? No question in my mind.
x-rpt retired ptg member
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A 51 gram down weight and a 31 gram upweight is light and fast. Only if the system inertia isn't high. A piano with heavy hammers and/or high action ratio will still feel heavy even if it has 51/31 DW/UW. If there is a question of inertia, where would you prefer it to be - lead in the keys or in a big resilient high quality hammer? No question in my mind. Hammer mass is responsible for about 80% of system inertia and the key (including leads) is about 15%. Adding or subtracting lead affects static touch weight, but has a minimal affect on system inertia. Excessive leading is a symptom, not a cause. That's just how it is. If the system inertia is higher or lower than what the pianist likes, change it. Inertia can be changed by changing hammer mass, changing action ratio, or a combination of the two. Anything else will have minimal affect.
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I change action geometry all the time, its no mystery. My preference remains heavy hammer. Its a more responsive feel and gets better tone, especially with good quality hammers such as Isaacs. Pushing lead makes no sense at all. But light hammer and lead is right to - just not for me. And no, I am not implying zero lead in keys.
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It's my experience that if there is reasonable touch weights, reasonable friction and action feels heavy it's time to look at other things like hammer blow distance, let-off and drop, key dip, jack knuckle alignment, rep lever height, damper early lift or excess friction in levers and voicing. If there is reasonable key leads like maybe 3 in bass taper to zero in top octave it's likely the one of the above, not hammers that need weight reduction.
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Rather high inertia sounds very probable. However, it is extremely nice touch now; yes i have to work a bit more when i play fast. This summer I measured our old bechstein A from the 1920s,(the one I grew up with, at my parents place). Guess what was the downweight folks? Around 40-45g!! Yes some notes were as low as 40g.
I also played my tech's steinway O from 1967. Also 52 g downweight, but felt lighter. I did not have a sense that it was slower. Also he had a yamaha g2 from 1970, 60g dw, felt like mine; possibly a little heavier than mine.
He said that hammers and stuff dries up a little as time goes, which will make the piano lighter..
Well, yes this thread is really interesting! And it has helped ;-)
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My tech will visit me by the end of october and go through the action. Will be very interesting. We have been talking of those measures which was mentioned on this thread; Knuckles position, hinges, blow distance etc.
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A 51 gram down weight and a 31 gram upweight is light and fast. If there is a question of inertia, where would you prefer it to be - lead in the keys or in a big resilient high quality hammer? No question in my mind. Fast but 31 g in mediums is on the heavy side, to me. AS I said Kawai RX2 with 60 30 g felt Ok , necessitate some effort indeed but was still playable. I think the action on the SAUTER is setup in a way that allows that high UW something that is possibly obtained playing with the "magic line" I was said recently that the trend was to allow the magic line passing at the end of the blow (this moment is considered as the one the pianist have the utmost control on the action) Old traditional setup is at mid blow (not half key dip) I was shown how having the start of the key move located ON the magic line allowed for a more discrete perception of the different breaking points (damper start, letoff begin, letoff end) , SO those 3 options are eventually possible . I do not like much the last one as I feel the touch is not as much under control but with a sensation that the touch slows during the stroke (as if a keyboard is tilted toward the pianist, a little) I was said also that Yamaha did change the traditional setup, but I must confess I did not analyse precisely the way the half blow is located on those actions. Anyone did ? The hypothesis here is that this setup influences the acceleration curve of the action, (is not only used to minimize wear and friction ) with the traditional setup you have more acceleration until half blow, then it lowers and the letoff is more easily passed. WIth the last setup acceleration from the key is lessened (the mechanical advantage get better and better, while with the traditional setup it get better only after mid blow) The intermediate setup with ideal line at the end allows more acceleration, if the jack to knuckle leverage get better at the same time it is may be an interesting option, but we are limited by the different location of the sharps against the magic line, their lever is less long so they can be easily too heavy) I seem to notice that with the half blow moment going along with the magic line passing, Steinway actions have the point at 4 mm dip. (indeed with trapezoidal actions only a range in mediums is optimal) The height of the capstan/whippen contact point at half blow is easy to compute , but measuring it with some accuracy when the total motion is about 5 mm displacement (circular) is far from easy.
Last edited by Olek; 10/13/15 04:06 PM.
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I do not understand this with "magic line" what you wrote Olek. You mean that (for SAUTER) the main "blow" (i.e. acceleration) takes place at the end of the movement of the keys?
Good or bad? I do not understand.. sorry.
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Opinions differ with regards to the optimum Magic Line position.
If you want to further your understanding about the Magic Line, you might visit the following link.
overspianos.com.au/actn.html
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Hermerick
That is just a slight change in leverage during the stroke
due to the flexing of the parts it takes more importance than when seeing moving perfectly stiff parts on a CAD program.
I cannot say how the touch is on your piano, if there is a constant effort until the end or if the effort is a little lessened before letoff. Difficult to say as the flex of parts is accumulating energy that is released at let off moment (mostly the flex of the key I think)
On the other side the way the shank vs the jack contact point evolve depends of the size of the knuckle and its location.
On one side the whippen rotates that make the lever from the shank center to the contact point lengthen. on the other the contact point begins low under the line of convergence between whippen center and shank centerpins which creates a reduction in lever lengths, and the letoff happens before that line (not called magic line but the convergence of levers is the same idea)
The location of the profile curves path between the capstan and the whippen profile always do take in consideration the "magic line" or the ideal convergence between the 2 profiles. That influence the length of the path, the amount of friction and the direction of forces.
My gut feeling is that the traditional old way allow for more key flex and resistance than if the parts begin in their optimal configuration. I have no real idea on what happens if the leverage get poorer until the letoff (maximum acceleration, ideal location only at the end of the motion, more precisely during letoff) I recall some actions that where not setup well and where the optimal line was never attained and they felt too much resisting, while the hammer was accelerated fast.
Theoretically it is not that bad to have a high UW with a normal DW, but this is not so usual, and the strong UW can be as tiring than a strong DW in my opinion. For instance actions with very little weight in the keys and balancing obtained with magnets where tiring because of the lack of inertia of the key alone, the finger is then obliged to stay in contact with the key more, for instance to play fast or staccato, where the mass of the key is used to allow a full key dip based on the key inertia (other parts once accelerated enough do not show much resistance to the key)
I suppose each pianist may adapt to a given type of setup, within margins.
Regards
Last edited by Olek; 10/14/15 11:47 AM.
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Piano
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