Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Choosing a Sailboat Piano

Hi folks...

A little update... for the past week or so I've been settling into the idea of a Nord NP2 (and lusting after the NS2), though it seriously pushes the justification envelope. I do always "err on the side of maximum geekiness," so there is that...

But I want to at least consider a cheaper, but equally flexible alternative. I have 1U of rack space remaining on the console for a Motif Rack XS, and if there is an 88-key controller that can fit the space requirements and feels excellent, then that is probably a wiser choice than the Nord... reducing the amount of money tied up in the most vulnerable part and offloading sound production to the module and/or software. Basically, it should not be much wider than the keybed, nor any taller than necessary (3-4 inches max). Depth is not a huge issue, but less is better... I just want a board with low physical overhead.

I know that pure controller products are relatively rare (StudioLogic with highly mixed reviews, the super-long Roland A88, obscure Doepfer, and M-Audio which I don't care for). An equally acceptable alternative, and probably easier to find, is a basic DP. In that product space, what sleek one has the nicest touch?

The benefit of that approach is scaling... I could practice with on-board voices and not have to turn anything on; if the power budget permits, I could crank up the rack synth module or launch a software piano on the Mac. And the keyboard would probably be sub-$1K instead of $3K or more. (I have started advertising my Roland/Mackie/KRK system locally to ease the pain.)

Thanks again for the brainstorming help! Progress report: the console layout is taking shape, with actual-size cutouts of all the devices taped to temporary Coroplast panels (36U total, or 63 inches) screwed to the rack cabinets aboard. It's going to be a nice environment for audio production, communications, and lab work... with a piano that can be pulled out whenever the mood strikes.

Yarrh!
Steve

I just did a blog post about the console region of the boat. If you skip past the hovercat and radio stuff to the section entitled "Console Development," there's a discussion about the audio equipment that will put some of this thread into better context.

Still haven't chosen a controller or DP... has StudioLogic's customer-service reputation improved? Am I worrying too much in response to the earlier thread here? I mean, Nord uses Fatar... and the Numa series is a reasonable size. That plus a rack synth and/or software pianos might be a nice solution for quite a bit less than the $3K NP2.

Also, is it OK to list an item for sale here? I'd like to find a Pacific Northwest home (not involving shipping) for my existing rig...

Cheers and thanks,
Steve

Would a Kawai MP10 be too big/heavy?

Cheers,
James
x

Interesting question, and my first thought, looking again at the product specs, is yes... too tall. But after a close look at the "nekid pictures" thread started by Dewster last year, I have a completely different take. This is exquisitely hackable, with all the electronics nicely independent of the keybed and very flexible cabling. It would be quite easy to repackage this, moving the user-interface to a nearby location instead of the stepped top panel of the standard cabinet.

I'd go for a minimum envelope on the keybed itself, since it's under the lab desktop where knee clearance becomes an issue. It looks like it can fit within about a 4" vertical space including enclosure, which is perfect. The panel appears to be about 36" wide and 3" tall, and there is a chance it could snuggle into the space between keys and hammers, but that would probably feel way too cramped. Most likely it would be split at the blue cable bundle, and remoted to a rackspace (if I eliminate the overkill Crown XLS1000, there is room!).

How would you feel about seeing one hacked and integrated on that level? It looks (and sounds) ideal, and this approach would eliminate the frustration of being limited to off-the-shelf cabinetry.

Cheers,
Steve

This is an exciting thread! After looking at your boat and the live aboard forums it makes me want one. I was already looking into alternative housing options anyways, plus I'm single and don't own hardly anything. Sure beats paying the monthly rent where I live for an apartment that I don't get to keep.

If you can rework the Kawai MP10 I think it would be a great piano. It sounds like you've looked at all the options, nord, the A88, Numas, Dopefer, and others.. Good luck!

Steve, I would be rather cautious about hacking an MP10 apart - it's quite a big risk if you end up damaging the components etc.

Are you no longer planning to use a software piano running on your PC?

Cheers,
James
x

James - I am not too concerned about the boards (assuming proper care in handling), and the keybed looks very robust... the trickiest bit would probably be the PCB-mounted controls on the panel which might make it a little flexible on the mechanical side until well-supported by a new panel. At first glance, that split point near the LCD might be a challenge given the width of my enclosure (standard 19" rackmount)... though it looks like the board is in two parts with the boundary right there, so I think it's easy if the dimensions work. Otherwise, it looks pretty modular.

I am still planning software pianos (not sure which yet, but there are both Mac and iPad environments at the console). There are three layers here, involving power budget and redundancy: bare piano (unless just a controller, of course), rack synth like the Motif XS (overkill for my needs), and software voicings. The latter is architecturally most appealing, though requiring "big iron" computer to be on when it is not a continuous duty machine does make it much more of an event to just pull out the keyboard and practice for a few minutes (my favorite mode, and a huge argument for a pure DP... especially when we're looking at one with excellent voice quality).

I've been assuming that the iMac 27 would host software pianos, but there is also an almost-always-on Mini Server that runs headless... perhaps the voices could live there, be invoked by a remote (VNC) session from the laptop, and then left to their own devices. That would make sense. Having never used software instruments other than a Pianoteq demo and Garage Band, I don't have an intuition about that... I'd love to hear comments from folks who know them.

This repackaging hack is an alluring alternative, since space constraints under the lab desktop have been limiting me to a very small subset of products. Mounting a decent keybed on its own enclosed drawer and remoting the circuit boards is very appealing if the process doesn't take too much surgery. (Technically, I could probably do the same with my Roland, though now y'all have me wanting the RM3 action and Kawai sounds!) The way the circuit boards are isolated on a wiring harness makes this kind of thing pretty easy; boards themselves would be pretty much untouched and mounted on stand-offs, with little or no hacking beyond cable extension.

In other news...

KHen - living aboard is great, with a few challenges and firm boundaries on tonnage. The mobility is wonderful, and the views are hard to beat... and there are a lot of small boats out there that can be had for a song if you don't mind taking a spartan approach (a friend here just got one for free).

Steve

By the way, I just have to share this. I'm reminded of my keyboard interface hack of yesteryear... back in 1978, to be exact, when achieving polyphony (more than one note at a time) in a homebrew system was non-trivial. Here's my Byte article about the project... click to embiggen the photos:

Polyphony Made Easy

Good times...

One thing that I didn't see mentioned and that I totally forgot about, also you seem very mechanically inclined and you could pull this off with ease from what you have previously done, is buying a keybed, such as the Fatar TP40Wood, arguably one of their finest actions, combined with a PNOScan Midi strip and build your own piano. It would have the dimensions you need and be cheaper than an NP2. The sounds would come from a virtual piano such as Ivory, Alicia keys, pianoteq, etc. You'd also need to build your own housing around the keys, otherwise they would just be exposed piano keys. You would essentially make your own controller with a nice action.

Here is a link of someone doing this. http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=2043

Also, this is probably vaporware, but it shows what the PNOscan is capable of http://www.ltecpiano.com/ltecpiano.com/Playing.html


P.S. If I were live aboard I'd need room for not only a piano, but ALSO my cello.

KHen - that is beautiful; thanks for telling me about it! I'm hoping not to have to dive in that deeply, but it is really good to know that the tools are available and well-documented. Links have been saved!

I'm off to learn more about the system requirements of virtual pianos, in case things end up going that way. As I mentioned earlier, my standard practice mode is interwoven with other activities, often a dozen or more short sessions throughout the day instead of single marathons. Whatever form this takes, it needs to be no big deal to pull it out and play... but I suspect that's possible with any of the options under serious consideration, since a 2 GHz quad-core Mac Mini Server will be continuously running the database engine for all the ship monitoring, as well as the web front-end for the user interface. That sounds chewy, but it's pretty lightweight computationally.

Thinking about it, and my needs, a virtual piano probably makes more sense than a rack synth if internal sounds are not an option... space is at a premium anyway, and there's a lot of nearby processing horsepower that's usually just idling. Ivory II looks great, but that iLok key is offensive. Maybe Galaxy Vintage D...

Cheers,
Steve

I agree that you could pull off the modular piano. For a mechanically competent person it is a pretty trivial matter, and given your other projects I have no doubt about that.

One thing I thought I'd mention is that the MP6 might actually be a better candidate for this hack. The action is more compact and self contained, and it is also very good, if not quite the MP10. It is also all plastic which might help in the marine environment. One of the online retailer stocks and sells damaged MP10s, which might be a good way to go, if a little risky.

By the way, my other hobbies are sailing and bicycles (and woodworking and "mechaniking"), so I am very intrigued by your projects. I am less of a computer hacker, but definitely a bicycle/machine hacker, so I love to see all of this stuff.

Whitfit - interesting data point on the MP6; thanks! I look forward to seeing how this project unfolds... I appreciate the encouragement.

And yes, it's really the combination of passions, isn't it? That's always what has driven me on these crazy quests; I have the most fun when everything I love is all blended into a lifestyle. Here's the final version of my bike, about 21 years ago (I think I may have linked to a page with this photo earlier in the thread, but an inline photo is more fun). I carried my flute 17,000 miles, and it was an essential part of the adventure... I feel the same way now about the piano on the sailboat.



Fair winds!
Steve

HI...

Question for y'all... has anyone seen the innards of a PX-350?

I've been continuing to refine the design here, and have pretty well decided that sound generation should be handed off to a Mac Mini Server that's only about 4 feet away and lightly loaded. No rack synth needed, and it would be overkill anyway. I like the sound of the Galaxy Vintage D and a few others of the ilk... and having internal sounds as well is not a bad thing either... quick turn-key playing when I don't want to mess with the setup of the Mac with VNC on the iPad, etc.

This gets me back to the controller question, and my dimensional constraints are severe enough that it looks like I almost certainly need to do the hack I mentioned earlier (repackaging the keybed to a minimal drawer that can be pushed well under the boat's lab desk, past my knees... then pulled out enough to clear the keys for playing, with no control-panel overhead). If I have to do that anyway, I am no longer limited to the svelte slabs... so I might as well stop looking for something that may not exist, find an acceptable keyboard in whatever form, buy the thing, extract the innards, and toss the cabinet.

So it's down to this: Doepfer looks interesting, if a bit unknown, but they seem to have the best of the Fatar actions. Studiologic has enough detractors here that I'm wary. What about getting one of the new Casios? The 350 is $799 at the moment, and I'd be much less nervous tearing into one than, say, a Nord (which wins on pure techno-lust terms, but is honestly more than I need or want to risk). Given the environment, and the resale-destroying hack, I should be looking at cost:performance ratio... so I'm wondering about the internal "modularity" of the PX-350 board layout. As cleanly hackable as the MP10 as revealed in the nekkid pictures thread from a while back?

(This is worth asking, because manufacturing cost-minimization often makes things highly unhackable... separate boards with open harnesses are very nice.)

I have considered just tearing apart my existing RD-700SX. I'm not in love with the sounds, though, and it feels a bit dated overall... but I suppose I should ask how a PX-350 would compare, given the age difference (what, about 8 years?). When I'm using software pianos, of course, the sounds don't matter, so maybe that's the best choice, even with the somewhat ancient USB interface and cryptic user interface... though I suspect I'd use on-board voices quite a lot if they are nice, and a generational update is very appealing here.

Cheers, and thanks again for the patient and enthusiastic brainstorming help... it has really made a difference!

Steve


(Added note: I know the 350 has internal speakers, but it also seems to be the most feature-rich of the product family and sounds very nice in the demos I've heard. Depending on how they are packaged, the included speakers and amp might make it into the system as "extras" independent of the boat's main audio system... again with the idea of just having a one-switch solution for quick tinkering, which is how I tend to play much of the time. I seem to learn better when keyboard time is sprinkled through the day rather than taken in large chunks, so an easy turnkey system is very appealing if I can shoehorn it in.)

HI folks...

It's been three weeks since my last post in this thread, and I've had a few additional thoughts that simplify the problem. Here's a quick update, followed by a few questions.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm assuming that there will be software pianos when I want maximum quality, but I also find real value in simply being able to switch on one thing and play. These are not mutually incompatible, of course, and the lesson here is that it is probably a lot easier to choose a DP instead of a controller, given the much wider range of options and the economies of scale.

The big change is the realization that I don't have to do the keybed repackaging job I was anticipating/dreading... there are enough projects to keep me busy, and that one would have been fiddly. When seated at the boat's lab desktop, it turns out that I have a little over 13" between my knees and the first obstacle in front of them (a vertical post that supports the center of the desk). Clearance above the knee is about 4" (barely enough for the thinnest slabs) but there is enough room in the other dimension for most of the off-the-shelf stage pianos or home digitals.

Packaging will be a simple drawer, pulling from the locked position under the desk to an extended position that is just enough to clear the controls. This will require a seating hack, since this whole region is on a sort of pedestal and this moves my center of mass past the edge, but that's unavoidable and expected.

So given all that, and removing my earlier constraints about hackability, I'd like to refine the choice based on these observations:

• Internal speakers are undesirable and redundant in this application (not only adding depth but superfluous with the marine stereo, big-iron amp, excellent speakers, and subwoofer all within arm's reach).
  
• Ideal price point is about $1K, though I can nudge it up to $1.5K. This leaves out the NS2, alas... tempting but overkill! There are also a few sweet boards in the $2.5K range (ES7, RD-700NX...) that push this or dimensional limits.
  
• Unlike most people, I'd actually prefer the thing to require a wall wart IF (and that's a big "if") the voltage it accepts is unregulated 12, allowing it to hang on the boat's battery bus. Otherwise, I'll live with AC and run the inverter... I'll probably have AC on almost all the time anyway, but hate to keep adding things that require it (like my espresso machine, but what are ya gonna do?).
  
• Modern and excellent sounds, of course, though I expect to turn to Galaxy or other software voicing when I want to really optimize it. But for quick practice, it should at least sound nice by itself (huge subjective word there, but you know what I mean... good long decay, lush grand voice, plenty of polyphony, not shrill, no obvious looping, no buzz, etc)
  
• Piano-esque touch. I've read the arguments about graded action, and I'm not accustomed to an AP, though I prefer a good piano feel to that of a lightweight synth or organ. I've only been playing about 6 years, and am not trying to replicate any previous experience... and heck, it's a boat. I expect some compromise.
  
• Length less than 53" or so… more than that and it will start to interfere with things. Depth 13" or less, and height probably around 5" or less. In all dimensions, less is better!
  
• MIDI capability, which is a given… USB at least. I don't have a current need for IN/OUT/THRU connectors.
  
• Other voices, other features, gizmos, effects, recording, rhythm sections, layering... the more the merrier, as long as it doesn't start to compromise excellence where it counts.
  
• Finally, a good sense of quality. This is the most ephemeral part, but there is an undeniable aesthetic component to this that affects my desire to practice (in addition to good sound). Cheap plasticky feel (of cabinet and keys) does not seduce the fingers.

The relaxation of packaging constraints opens lots of possibilities I had not considered before, and I'm on an island where the only music dealer is a delightfully friendly place with lots of stringed instruments, but only one old acoustic piano. I can't easily just go try a few things, though if it gets narrowed down to a couple of strong candidates I'd find my way to the mainland (or just take a chance). Every time I come to this forum, I spend an hour or so reading comparisons of boards, and I know it's hugely subjective, but given the issues above are there any that absolutely jump out from the pack as obvious best choices?

Many thanks for your thoughts and the collective wisdom of this community,
Steve

So a 1k-1.5k board with dimensions of >53" L, >13" D, and >5" H.....hmm this is a tough one.

I looked at about 10 boards at the 1k-1.5k mark and only 2 met your dimension requirements. The kawai ES6 (it's 1/2" bigger on all sides than what you want) and the Numa Nano( well under your size tolerances, but good luck reaching studiologic if you have a complaint). I'll try to do some more digging for you, but with those dimensions most boards from the BIG 4 are out( Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Korg) Even the Nord piano is out dimension wise, plus it's not 1.5k either.

Hope this helps. I'll keep looking for you. Happy sailing!

Edit: Just saw the Numa Compact. It's well within the dimensions, and it's $670. May be worth a look into.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...T_NumaCompact_88_Key_Piano_Keyboard.html

Thanks, KHen!

Did you mean the Kawai MP6? That's one of the ones on my short list...

Those numbers are not cast in STONE, though they get tight very quickly... the space already exists and has solid objects on all sides (desk support post, slightly movable... iMac to left... tool cabinet to right... knees to front...).

As to the Numa... I keep finding my way to those when searching specs, then get kind of turned off by user comments here and elsewhere. Oh, to not care! *grin*

And I do lust after the NS2 for its UI and overall feature set, though I have never touched one and it's way over-budget anyway.

The most annoying dimension is that 13" one, and I'm exploring work-arounds. It gets SO much easier if I let that creep up to 15" (among other things, the geekily appealing Korg Krome, though there are lots of not-so-complimentary reports on the keybed and it's also annoyingly long... so it is over 2 of the 3 limits). I'm half tempted to just shrug and get the PX-350, based largely on reports of good feel... it's half my price limit in a risky environment, and is within the space constraints.

(I have been tempted to just keep my Roland RD-700SX, but I'm frankly a little tired of it. It is also rather portly, over two of the dimension targets.)

GAS is really insidious, isn't it? Heck, I'm not even remotely pro-level like a good many of you folks, yet I'm spending HOURS in analyzing comments, specs, dimensions, interfaces, and overall subjective cost-performance ratio... without even getting a chance to actually try any of them. I know. I'm overthinking it, but what are ya gonna do?

Cheers, and I'll post as this unfolds!

HI folks...

Thought I'd add a long-overdue update to this thread, now that we are three years along. I bought a PX-5S but never really connected with the touch... though it was a perfect fit and easy to handle in the boat. I did have trouble managing sheet music, until I made an elevated stand for it:

http://nomadness.com/how-to/music-stand-px-5s-digital-piano/

But meanwhile, my back was getting worse, and I haven't been sailing at all... so I finally decided to make the move to a big power boat that gives me more space for lab, machine shop, and studio (while placing fewer demands on my creaky bod!). A happy note in this is that there is much more room for the piano, so I'm getting serious about an RD-800, deployed on a 4-bar linkage from fixtures on the wall behind the motorized drafting table I use mostly as a desk (if I have to dig the piano out of storage and hook it up, I'll never play). This will end up stowing in a nest above side windows in the salon, then smoothly lower to the playing position when needed... already cabled to mixer, computer, and power.

I promise to post photos... this should be a hoot.

Cheers!
Steve

wow, just wow. serious madness, and I'm jealous!

Welcome back Nomadness!

I shall look forward to seeing that RD800 stand!

Cheers,
James
x

Thanks for the re-welcome and kind words!

Just had a /headdesk moment yesterday... I happened to be in *cough* a nearby town *cough* where there is a music store that's part of that Really Big Chain. So I thought I'd pop in and let my fingers feel an RD-800, just because, well, one probably should before spending that kinda money.

I walked in, and was immediately approached by an eager kid (I'm 63, so that's a relative term). I told him what I was looking for.

"Nope, but we have some great Williams pianos over here!"

He hadn't actually heard of the RD-800 and I had to explain it, but he did kindly offer to order one. *sigh*

(I probably judged too hastily, but did not take any of the inventory for a spin.)

Steve