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Joined: Oct 2005
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Hi,
I'm quite new to this forum but what really surprised me a lot reading this branch of a forum is how big the market for $5 000+ DP's actually is. I even did not know before that there are several models each major vendor got that are between $10 000 - $20 000 price tag. And I'm not speaking about the "normal" pianos with an "options".
So what is really hard for me to understand is what is the logic behind it? I mean I thought that since you pass $3 000 - $4 000 price tag you step in the territory of the nice "normal" brand new uprights (not to mention $7 000 and above) which in my opinion always a hands down better choice that any "fake" piano.
What also surprised me is the overall amount of the actual DP's discussions compared to piano-type controller > software > sound system setups.
I want to share my point of view and maybe even convince more people towards it. I mean that though there are always situations when a certain type of DP types required, for me the modular setup will always be an obvious choice. The main reason is definitely the economic. Even if I'll have say $15 000 budget for a digital piano setup I'll sure go modular - just imagine some $5 000+ stereo monitors, some $1 000 hi-end headphones, top level PC (with SSL drives to store all you piano samples), highest grade audio card, big UHD 40-50" floor standing display for all your sheet music, several top-notch software piano packages, not to mention the keyboard controller, which is sadly just a single serious model exist on the market as it is (I sure mean VPC-1) - but you could be still within the budget to get a decent action DP as a controller.
Next, what is all that buzz about the multispeaker digital grands and uprights? True, I never tried it, there are no such around where I currently live but it appears to me that it'll always sound fake compared to real - still no chance. Just what a waste of money. From the other side, speaking about modular stereo (or even multi channel) setup I see it not as a comparison of "real piano" vs. "artificial piano" but rather as a "recorded real piano" vs. "recorded artificial piano" and in this case the results of such a comparison come impressively close or even indistinguishable in case you make it sound a bit like a distant retro recording. Also with such "monitor setups" you will always hear the sound while playing exactly (almost) the same as the listener will hear it being recorded (and distributed). It is also super useful to listen to other pianists playing (on YouTube or wherever) right on the same speakers and being able to immediately compare and reproduce it by yourself in case of serious practice.
Upgradeability - you are welcome to exchange any component of the chain anytime.
I really hope to see more and more people switched to such type of setups and hope to see more high quality piano controller-keyboards in future.
Last edited by Andrei Kuznetsov; 11/17/15 11:01 AM.
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Andrei, I think simplicity is the main reason. I agree with you that you probably can get a better result with a controller/computer/software/speakers setup for less money when talking about high-end digital pianos, but a lot of people want a neat and tidy instrument. One power button, no cables, looks nice, no tuning/maintenance costs. Some people will pay for that simplicity.
I actually agree with you that I'd rather play a good upright than spending $10k+ for a digital piano. But I guess different people have different needs and different wealth. I'm looking to buy a new digital soon - probable in the the $2-4k range, mainly for late night practice. I still prefer to play my Yamaha U3 because it has a big sound and feels so real and responsive.
PS - I looked at your videos, you play very well!
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Andrei, I think simplicity is the main reason. I agree with you that you probably can get a better result with a controller/computer/software/speakers setup for less money when talking about high-end digital pianos, but a lot of people want a neat and tidy instrument. One power button, no cables, looks nice, no tuning/maintenance costs. Some people will pay for that simplicity.
I actually agree with you that I'd rather play a good upright than spending $10k+ for a digital piano. But I guess different people have different needs and different wealth. I'm looking to buy a new digital soon - probable in the the $2-4k range, mainly for late night practice. I still prefer to play my Yamaha U3 because it has a big sound and feels so real and responsive.
PS - I looked at your videos, you play very well! Thank you! I returned to my hometown sometime ago and we have a more than 100 yrs old Bechstein in a not so bad condition and just about a year ago we got just in case a Casio Privia PX-150 because of some free money to that moment and to actually back up a Bechstein with a hope to keep it alive a bit longer since I started playing somewhat more extensively. But quite soon I discovered Pianoteq existence and surprisingly found myself almost entirely switched to Pianoteq based setup. And though I have a consumer grade speakers and headphones I can't say enough how I love it all. Yes, simplicity is an argument, I understand. There are also some arguments about the compact look of a DP - it's arguable, more expensive DP's look quite massive and not so cool to my taste. And the professional studio type setup can look just gorgeous.
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Why I don't have an acoustic piano (although I'd really love to have one): 1. I live in an apartment and don't want to bother neighbors. 2. I have no spare time for any maintenance, tuning
Why not modular approach: 1. I have no place for separate speakers, stands, cables, computer, etc. 2. My piano is in my living room and I prefer it to look as simplistic as possible 2. I need to be able to start playing right away without waiting for a computer to boot, software to load, etc.
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I think digital piano at around $1000 is best buy since it gives much better sound than real piano at this price range. But I can't see the premium value of a $2000 or even $4000 digital piano worth that range.
All these premium, some as described by Andrei, can be fully replaced (with even better quality and lower cost) by a set of computer and sound processing software.
This drove me to build a tiny computer and grand sounds to make it act as a $4000 digital piano, with my $1000 Casio PX-750. Trial setup provides excellent sound but many technical things is pending to complete (such as using a touch screen to choose instruments). The build up price is only $300!
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I have some similar thought. How do you come with the $300 number? You need to cover several things. 1. Software. Pianoteq is $100+ for stage, more if you want to tweak the sound. 2. A sound system. Just curious, what would be comparable to a middle/high level digital piano's built-in sound? Let us say, for Casio PX860 (~$1000) 20W+20W speaker or a high end KAWAI ES220 (~$2000). What type of the speakers or receiver/amp+speakers give me the comparable result? How much would it cost? I would not count the computer and monitor as everybody probably already has them. I think digital piano at around $1000 is best buy since it gives much better sound than real piano at this price range. But I can't see the premium value of a $2000 or even $4000 digital piano worth that range.
All these premium, some as described by Andrei, can be fully replaced (with even better quality and lower cost) by a set of computer and sound processing software.
This drove me to build a tiny computer and grand sounds to make it act as a $4000 digital piano, with my $1000 Casio PX-750. Trial setup provides excellent sound but many technical things is pending to complete (such as using a touch screen to choose instruments). The build up price is only $300!
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Sorry for misleading, $300 is just for the tiny computer, external USB sound card and software inside. Grand sound results from a reasonably good headphone instead of speakers.
Digital piano is a mix up of "Keyboard" + "Sound samples" + "Speakers", which makes a good place to hide its premium price.
Among them, keyboard and speakers (or amp + external speakers) are quite subjective to judge their price performance if they are not too poor. Sound samples is easier to judge, particularly if some samples are not recorded for different velocity.
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I have the same approach, Andrei. I will likely never buy a digital piano in a box, but I use a modular strategy instead. Very likely the popularity of everything piano included in an attractive box is due to spouse-friendly pressure. And I understand that. Most ladies don't want to live in the middle of a recording studio. Too many wires, monitors, and sound treatment foam and panels on the walls. But if you have a place or good size room of your own, like I do. Then go for it!
Will do some R&B for a while. Give the classical a break. You can spend the rest of your life looking for music on a sheet of paper. You'll never find it, because it just ain't there. - Me Myself
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Very likely the popularity of everything piano included in an attractive box is due to spouse-friendly pressure.
And kids. Long cables have been appropriated to play pony or spiderman before. And there is something to say for "single purpose devices". They just do the thing and no cables can come unplugged, software/devices incompatible because of an update and crap like that.
Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
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Very likely the popularity of everything piano included in an attractive box is due to spouse-friendly pressure.
And there is something to say for "single purpose devices". No software/devices incompatible because of an update. Very true. That's why I make sure to get my daily practice done 1st thing in the morning on the acoustic piano. No boot-up time or re-patching of MIDI cables from the night before, etc.
Will do some R&B for a while. Give the classical a break. You can spend the rest of your life looking for music on a sheet of paper. You'll never find it, because it just ain't there. - Me Myself
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Very likely the popularity of everything piano included in an attractive box is due to spouse-friendly pressure.
And there is something to say for "single purpose devices". No software/devices incompatible because of an update. Very true. That's why I make sure to get my daily practice done 1st thing in the morning on the acoustic piano. No boot-up time or re-patching of MIDI cables from the night before, etc. Switching my PC setup is literally the very first thing I do when I wake up and the very last thing before going to sleep, so the keyboard is always ready all day long in my case. I even know people who just never switch their computers off.
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Same here, PC is on anyway, one click on the dekstop, walk over to piano, ready to play. Never felt it an was an issue with how I am setup, everything is always connected, USB midi cable etc, so really nothing extra to do but one extra click on the mouse to get going. One thing that always bugged me a bit about controllers/slabs, this may not bother many at all, but when I see them is the illusion element of playing a piano, it isn't there somehow in terms of immersion. All the buttons and sliders, and often the plastic look on the cheaper models detract even more. The MP7/11 look a little nicer with the wooden sides, but the top still reminds me of a retro style cockpit ... or something like that. Now for sure I would say the Casio AP450 I own is not exactly masterpiece in furniture, or many of the consoles, they tend to be done in that sort of IKEA style at the cheaper end anyway, but I do like cabinets/consoles for that reason .. looks, at the higher end Kawai CS10 for example really looks like a proper upright. While I use the AP450 as a MIDI controller, I am still glad it sort of reminds me of a piano standing in the room as a piece of furniture as well. Even the bare bones VPC1 looks rather utilitarian to me, and the stand under it makes it even more so. I wish they made something like controllers in a cabinet or have more cabinet solutions addons. I have seen some interesting cabinet mods for the VPC1 mind you, something like this .. I like
Selftaught since June 2014. Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various... Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos. 12x ABF recitals. My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
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Many people want the "same" simplicity than a real piano. Many wives don't want Home-Studio in the living room. Many people do not even know what MIDI is. They just want a digital piano that looks like a piano. They just want to play the piano... without neighborhood's problems. The DPs that cost over 3-4000 $ are often well appointed, sometimes with six 3-way speakers + speaker box. That's what you pay. And obviously the console (500 $ more for polished ebony models... ). play in front of a high end DP is very pleasant. You've got the sensation to be in front of a grand piano. speaker positioning is very important. If you want this sort of sound, you will need more than two speakers. But if you're in a studio, or single man , controller like VPC1 and good speakers is a very good solution. (But you can use Pianoteq with your Clavinova if you want...)
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I haven't read through all the responses yet but I just wanted to add how I feel.
I did spend $7000 on a digital piano.
To me an instrument such as the piano has almost a magical quality. It's not just a piece of electronic equipment sitting in my house. Thus, I have no interest in attaching a laptop to my piano and then running it back through multiple speakers.
To me, there's too much mess, cables, ugliness in a sense attached to all of that which takes away from the idea of the instrument. Moreover, I hate to tweak settings. I think when I tried Quantum Leap pianos a long time ago, I remember needing to adjust many of the settings (lid position, reverb, hammer hardness, velocity, etc) which drove me nuts. I don't really know how all this stuff work, on a real piano I would convey to my tech what I want to change and he would just do it for me.
I even dislike the idea of adjusting sounds on a digital piano and that's one of the reasons I didn't go for a Kawai or the Roland V-piano, I don't want to adjust. I just want to turn it on and play with a sound that I like already programmed into the piano out of the box.
Moreover, the process of turning everything on, and off, and making sure I have space to put everything such as the computer I would need to run software sounds, to make sure my computer doesn't suddenly give me update alerts, FB/msg alerts, etc during playing bothers me a lot. Plus, I wouldn't want to put a keyboard/slab type keyboard with multiple speakers and a computer in my living room because it just doesn't look good. It's fine for a music studio or study, but I wouldn't want it in my living room.
Therefore, I ended up going with the N1, despite the sound being kind of poor through the tiny speakers it comes with. At least it looked relatively nice in the room.
However, nothing beats an actual, well-regulated acoustic, which is what I ended up getting anyways.
I do have to admit though that some of the software pianos are sounding very good when adjusted properly. I just don't have the knowledge or patience to do it.
Edit: Also to add I have children come over very often and I have pets as well. I can easily imagine small children tripping/disconnecting all the cables and my dog chewing on all the cables if there were a lot on the ground. This is a superficial reason but a legitimate one I have to be careful about.
Last edited by Michiyo-Fir; 11/19/15 02:41 PM.
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I see, it all looks very reasonable for me. Just can't resist to say that I LOVE how studio stuff look being all around.
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Sorry for misleading, $300 is just for the tiny computer, external USB sound card and software inside. Grand sound results from a reasonably good headphone instead of speakers. Nope, really 300 is not enough. More like: Computer 500 USD; audio interface 100; and Pianoteq 120 for stage. Add a good controller. Sampled pianos requiere a fair amount of HD, RAM and some CPU, do you want to wait for the ones with big libraries to load? If not you need an SSD. About the sound I agree except for Roland which is modeled piano so it isn't recorded and I suppose the system is designed as a whole to behave as a piano (at least the models with supernatural and above). I consider the sound of virtual pianos superior to digital ones (except roland high end which is modeled and then different as a whole) but I don't think is an option for everyone and neither cheap. Also consider decent speaker, about 500 for a pair and that is going "cheap". But yeah if you are like me and have audio interface, monitor speakers and a capable computer because you also play around making music in a DAW then the "modulaR" set up wins easily...
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Its possible to use The special speakers system of a hybrid piano (Avant Grand, Roland Lx or Celviano) with a Vst like Ewql??? In theory it should Be a very very realistic experience, I guess, but I've never ear both instruments togheter
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Most expensive DP's usually have an audio input in case you may plug you iPod or whatever, so yes, you can route audio from Pianoteq back to your DP, quite many people do it. I don't exactly understand what do you exactly mean by running both instruments together but there is actually no problems with such things.
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I ran pianoteq and my dp together through the dp speakers.. The sound is definitely organic! And you get good spacial effect too. You can of course, record it like that, too.
"I am not a man. I am a free number" " "
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Not really. The appeal of the single-piano is that you press one button and it's on. All of the components are designed to work together. There's no "debugging" when suddenly something doesn't work. And if you take it on a gig, there are very few cables and almost nothing that can go wrong.
Rodney Sauer Kawai KG-2E • Kawai ES8 • Kawai ES920
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