Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Chopin Scherzo tempo

Chopin's Scherzi are marked presto, but presto is 200bpm maximum. Everyone plays the Scherzi at around 300bpm. Did presto mean something faster back then?

"...but presto is 200bpm maximum ..."

Huh? Where did you learn that?! There is no tempo designation that falls within a certain range of bpm's. All tempo designations are only relative.

Probably from the back/bottom of a metronome?...

Yeah, metronome manufacturers are not, in fact, the tempo gods.

1 and 3 are actually "Presto con Fuoco". So what's the MM for that?

I thought that JoelW had more knowledge/common sense than that!

I agree with all the insinuations that any such numericizationisms about tempi are bunk.

That said .....I think there's still a good question behind Joel's question. And that the answer is....

The "Presto" means that these pieces are really more like 1 beat per measure, not 3. You don't have to tell me what the marked meter is -- I know. But I'm talking about what the feel of the beat is -- and really, it's 1, not 3, isn't it?

And if we're considering them as 1 beat per measure, the speed falls within what Joel said, actually maybe if anything a little on the low side.
Not that it matters if it fits that numericizationism, just sayin'.

My English is not very good. Hope you understand.

For slow practice, you set meter against each beat in the bar.

For normal practice, you adjust meter against the 1st beat of every bar, and depends on which scherzo, you may group (say) 4 bars into a set. And therefore you can play presto really fast.

Since you are probably trying to improve it, I want to make sure you won't be thinking "numericizationism" is really a word.

Your English actually seems quite good!

Good point, Mark. If someone were conducting it, would they use a crazy-fast 3 pattern? Absolutely not, it would be conducted in 1. Let's look at a Scherzo by Beethoven, from the third symphony.

It's in 3/4, and although not marked "presto," it is marked "allegro vivace." But the conductor conducts it in 1. Anyone who would bob their head or tap their feet to it would do it only on the downbeat of each measure. The same is true with Chopin scherzi.

Also, although others have already said so, just let me add that one should not relate specific metronome markings with specific tempo indications.

OSK: Very well said -- and about this part, I have a story.


Back when I was in college, which was like 200 years ago, both I and a friend were working on the 2nd scherzo. One time when we were in this big room at the student union where there were two pianos, we thought hey, it would be cool for us to play it at the same time. When we were sitting down to do it, some people came by to listen (that always happened at that room). We thought it would be fun if one of them would sort of "conduct," to help us be together (especially because the two pianos were about 40 feet apart) but also because we just thought it would be fun. The guy wasn't particularly a musician and didn't know the piece, but he did all right waving his hand and helping us be together.

He automatically conducted just 1 beat per measure.

That's all conducting is, isn't it?

Well, yeah; I mean, what else could there be?

Cheers!

Well, it could be worse. It could be choral conducting, where you do the exact opposite of waving your hands in order to help the ensemble stay together...

Actually, in some places, particularly in the 3rd, I think the pulse is every other bar. Opening section, for example: the double octaves should be "con fuoco" enough that you hear them in groups of 6 rather than 3. Of course the chorale, where it is marked slower, shifts to a single measure pulse. Nowhere is it ever a quarter-note beat! But I think we're all in tune on that point.

Scherzo 1/2/4: approx.10 minutes each, nr.3: approx.7 minutes, if you can do that: hey, it's presto indeed!