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I noticed a lot of you using the Zoom H1-H4n recorders in the ABF recital and I need some help!

I just got a Zoom H1 a few days ago and I can't figure out how to get a loud enough sound in the recording without clipping.

I had tried to put the recorder on the piano (on the side of the music stand) but the higher notes clipped at the two mic levels I tried (i think something like 30 and 40ish?)

Then I tried to put the recorder on a side table. While it didn't clip, the sound was very quiet and distant. When I used the amplify feature of audacity, the sound became a little louder but still pretty quiet compared to what I want.

My question is, how do I get a loud enough sound without clipping???

Would it help to put the recorder close to/in the piano since putting it far away I have to set the mic level higher resulting in more staticky background noise. Even so it didn't sound good...

Here's an example of what I tried yesterday. I tried the recorder on a side table, then used amplify in audacity and finally boosted the sound some more in iMovie...but as you can see the loud passages are clipping and buzzing very badly. But this is about the volume I would like the recordings to be in the videos...

[video:youtube]WLzNnfltVec[/video]

I looked around online and this is kind of the results I'm looking for.

He also used a Zoom H1.

[video:youtube]GA4lu6zBmg8[/video]

I think the sound in your video is distorted because you raised the volume too much.
Did you readjust the input level when you placed the mic on the side table?
Ideally, the loudest sound should reach just a bit lower than 0dB (if I remember correctly). Also make sure the input level is not set to auto.

You record at the lower volume on the side table. Then afterward, you import the .wav file into a program like Audacity, where you adjust the volume. You can set it at that point to raise the volume of the recording to the max without clipping. That should make it loud enough for normal listening.

What frequency (44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz) and bitrate (16bit or 24bit) are you recording at? Also, are you doing a wav file and not mp3?

I recommend recording in a wav file format. Since you're doing video, it's probably best to be at 48kHz, but you can do 44.1kHz, and definitely 24bit. This will make a considerably larger file, but also will capture a lot more of the authentic sound. You can also export the file after fiddling with the audio volume on Audacity to an mp3 for youtube, but you always want to edit high-quality files. It's hard to make a bad quality recording sound good.

If it's anything like my Zoom H2n and Q2hd, it helps to have two people to check it out when figuring out the setup, to be sure the bars for L and R sound on the recording screen don't go past -12 (e.g., toward -6) on your loudest chords. If it does, keep adjusting. I keep the mic gain between 4 and 5 on both recorders. That seemed to make the biggest difference, and I have not had a problem with clipping (or getting loud enough volume) since I made those adjustments.

The Zooms are mounted on tall tripods about 6 feet from the piano, where the point of a triangle would be one line is drawn from the pianist and another from the tail of the piano (and the piano is the third "line"). It seemed to help to have them a foot or so higher than the top of the piano, rather than on a side table. The top of the 5'7" piano is open full stick, which also seemed to help.

So...just a few more suggestions to add to the mix.

Ideally you set it where you can see the levels on the little LCD display while you play. Play some of the loudest notes that you plan to record, lower the recording level if it looks like the levels are too high, repeat until the levels stay below the 0db line. Then you should be good to go.

Sorry to double-post, but I just listened to the other recording that you'd like emulate the sound of.

These are important factors that will affect a recording:

- The characteristics of the piano being recording. You obviously have a nice piano, but is your a bright sound in person, or is it warmer? The piano in the example you wish to follow has a very bright, clear sound.

- The space in which the piano is recorded. In your "ideal" recording example, the piano is obviously away from any walls and is on hardwood floors. You can't tell how much space is in the room - the reverb you hear could be added effects, but I suspect it's a natural sound from the room. Your piano is up against a wall, which means that the sound will have a pretty significant "slapback" or instant reverb/distortion to it.

What kind of floor treatment is there (carpet, tile, etc.)? How big is your room (including ceiling height)? Is there a lot of furniture in the room, or things hanging on the walls? Many times when you want to get a good recording, you try to eliminate as much reverb as you can to get a very dry sound. Then you add the reverb in post-production. It appears to me that you are in a room that might be pretty easy to treat.

Basically flat, hard surfaces anywhere will reflect the sound. Sometimes this is nice, like if you have hardwood floors and a good size space, you don't have to mess at all with the reverb if it works well. However, if you're in a small room or not happy at all with the kind of sound you're getting, try to eliminate places that the sound can bounce off. This doesn't have to be expensive, but you'll have to do a bit of research to see what other people do to treat their rooms.

Once you get that dry recording, then you create a sense of room space using something like Audacity. This can be a lot of fun because you can make it sound like you're in a huge concert hall, a church, a small room - whatever you like, and it's simple to test each one out to see what you like best. Adding this kind of reverb to a recording that already has distortion from the room will create some undesired effects as well, which is it important to treat the room for reflections as best you can.

Elaine, I have a boom stand somewhere in my house that I was too lazy to dig up. I will try to have the lid open and the zoom on a stand next time. Thanks for the suggestion.

Morodiene, For this particular recording I did at 192 kbps mp3 file since another thread was saying people couldn't tell a sound difference for sound files above 192 kbps mp3. I didn't record a .wav file just for the sake of space. I will try a wav file next time like you suggested

I did record at a low volume, and used the amplify in audacity to adjust the clip but if I adjust it to a level that is loud enough to me, it clips quite badly.

My piano isn't as bright as the one in the recording, however I'm not so concerned with the brightness and clarity of the sound as the loudness and clipping. I don't have much problem with the quality of the sound, yes it does sound a bit distant but I assumed that's probably because I put the recorder off to the side instead of right around the open lid of the piano like the other exampe. I just want to know how to get the same level of loudness as the video example I showed, without clipping which is happening in my video. On my computer, my video actually has less volume than the video I'm showing.

My room is 10x12 with carpet and there's nothing on any of the walls and no furniture either other than a waist height bookshelf which is what I put my recorder on.

I would prefer not to edit the actual sound of the piano by adding effects or reverb other than the volume if possible. I just don't know how to get the volume I want without clipping and buzzing with the recorder. I think it theoretically should be possible since the other person's video has the volume, but I don't know maybe he somehow post processed it so it is louder without clipping? I really don't know anything about sound editing...

+1.

PMFJI --

The H1 should have a way to attach it to a camera tripod. That way, you'll get less acoustic noise transmitted through the floor, tabletop, etc. Try putting it underneath the soundboard, pointing upward.

The higher the bit count (24 bit vs 16 bit), the more you can amplify the recording in Audacity, without losing quality.

Setting recording levels is a bit of an art. Once you figure out what works -- good signal level in the soft passages, no clipping in the loudest passages -- write it down!

PMFJI (again) --

Two things:

1. High-bit-rate MP3 files work quite well _for playback_. But they are _not_ good for recording:

. . . You record directly in MP3;

. . . Audacity un-compresses the MP3 into a WAV file for processing;

. . . You re-compress into an MP3 file.

This sequence loses audio quality -- a lot of quality. As Morodiene says, you should record in WAV, with the highest bit depth (24 bits) and sample rate (48 kHz) that the recorder permits.

Process that file in Audacity. "Process" may include using compression (there's an "effect" for that in Audacity), "normalizing" (another effect, to raise the signal as much as possible _without clipping_), or "riding gain" so that the "pp" sections don't fade into the background.

Export from Audacity as an MP3 file for distribution (via YouTube, e-mail, etc).

2. You need to figure out if the clipping is happening within Audacity, or during the recording process.

If it's happening during recording, you must reduce the recorder's input gain so that the signal _never_ goes to 0 dB.

Audacity lets you see clipping -- if the waveform display has "flat tops", you're clipping. Don't amplify the signal so much!

The dynamic range of a live piano is very wide. Commercial recordings have all had "loudness compression" applied, so that the "pp" sections are louder than "live sound", and the FF sections are less loud than "live sound". If you don't do that, and you listen to the recording at a "normal listening level", the FF sections will be OK, but the pp sections will sound really soft.

Thanks a lot Charles.

I don't know how to use compression, normalizing, riding gain, etc, I will have to read up about it.

Yesterday I tried setting the recorder inside the lid of the piano with a boom stand and the sound clarity was much better. However, I set the level too high and the recording was clipping straight from the Zoom. I will have to do a lot more tests and read up on the different effects I can use to increase volume while making sure it doesn't clip!

Ya, it's really a matter of tweaking things in your setup. There's no right way because there are so many variables. I have found for my piano, I prefer using the boom stand placing the Zoom right above my head as I play. I get a very clear sound without getting too much damper sound or hammer hitting the strings. But try any different configurations until you arrive at what you like best.

One of the classic setups for recording an orchestra:

. . . Put a stereo mic above the conductor's head.

It hears what he hears.