Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum A question about sharps and flats from a beginner

Hi! This is my first message here and I'm afraid I'm asking a stupid question, so be kind!

I studied piano a little as a child and I’ve just started again. I’m working with Alfred’s 1B for children and without a teacher. (I live in Italy and they do everything differently here and I’d have to do everything in Italian and I’m already confused enough.)

Anyway, on page 8, it says: “The SHARP SIGN before a note means play the next key to the right, whether BLACK or WHITE.” (their caps)

Then, on page 15, it says: “The FLAT SIGN before a note means play the next key to the LEFT, whether BLACK or WHITE.” (still their caps)

I know what sharps and flats are. Or at least I thought I did. But does what they say in Alfred's mean that F natural can also be called E sharp? And that B natural can also be called C flat?

I always thought that sharps and flats were always black keys.

Can someone explain this to me the way they would to a child?

Thanks!

Yes, F natural can also be called E sharp. And B natural can also be called C flat. Which name and notation is used depends on musical context. For example when you write out the notes of a scale each "letter" has to appear exactly once. So for example in the scale for F# major:

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

If you write these on a staff, you will see it makes a series of notes which rise steadily, one line or space at a time. If you used F instead of E#, there would be a hiccup in the list of letter names and also in how it appears on the staff:

F# G# A# B C# D# F F#

You would also have a problem writing the key signature on the staff because you would somehow have to show that F could be either sharp or natural.

Yes, this is correct and you understood clearly.

Actually, in real music tones, F natural is different from E sharp. Its just that in modern piano tuning, the tuning is modified so they are the "same", but in actuality, there is a slight difference. Here is a definition of it, known as the "Pythagorean Comma" :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma

Not trying here to confuse a beginner, because in modern piano, the two notes sound the same, and the names can be interchanged.

But in truth, they are different notes and will sound different if you have a piano tuned to a temperament that includes the difference. (Higher-end digitals can do this).

They are enharmonic note spellings (kind of like homophones, sound the same but spelled differently). I always teach them as half steps, once my students know the difference between a half and a whole step. As repertoire gets more advanced you will see double sharps or double flats which raise or lower a whole step. The proper notation aligns to what key you are in and accidentals (notes not normally occurring in the scale) get marked accordingly. Color of the key doesn't matter.

I saw this on a tshirt years back:

Musician's Theory of Relativity:
E = Fb

Shouldn't it be: E ≠ Fb unless you are equally tempered?

Well played, sir.

Thank you all! I'm going to print out your answers so I can read them carefully, over and over again.

I'm really grateful because I have no one else to ask these things--I mean I have lots of other questions but I'm such a beginner that I not only can't figure out the answers for myself, but I can't even figure out the questions!

Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print forum posts?

Well, if you are going to print something out, print this out ...



That is as clear as it can be. Many of the responses you got made it more complicated and muddy.

Learning to play piano is hard enough, do not look for ways to make it even harder.

+1.

That tells you (correctly, for playing piano at any level) that E# = F, Fb = E, B#=C, Cb = B.

I see your point.

However, I have had several students become very interested in the concept of the Pythagorean Comma, who found it fascinating to learn of such things, which, hopefully, fed their interest in piano and music.

Its similar to studying the history of music, biographies of composers, the mechanics of how pianos work, (I have a manufacturer's model of a grand piano's action in my studio, such as piano dealers have; Everyone finds it interesting, and it can be helpful to some when teaching about the sustain pedal).

All of which could be labeled "unnecessary information" to learning to play, yes...but interesting and ultimately helpful in the journey for some, certainly...and can be passed on by for others without harm, of course.

I like to throw out tidbits of information about music (history, the above, etc) to students.

Interesting, yes. Useful, no, not really. Equal temperament is the standard now and talking about Pythagorean tuning is as useful as talking about neumes in musical notation.

One of the biggest problems piano teachers have is keeping students interested once the "honeymoon period" is over.

If something keeps the interest going, it is good, and thus useful.

Which is why good teachers add things to the teaching of the nuts and bolts of piano (i.e. theory, technique, repertoire, etc).

They add interesting items of piano-related information...music history, how the piano works, etc. (I have a dealer's model of a grand piano action in my studio for that purpose...just about everyone is interested in it).

I did not say the knowledge of the Pythagorean comma was all that useful for a beginner...I said it has proven helpful for maintaining interest for some people, (my students) which is why I mentioned it here in passing.

Have a nice day, all.

Hi Qazsedcft, in the land of Copernic. I love that photo, here's one for you.

By the way, I think that talking about neumes would get enthusiasm from may people; including kids.

In discussions about a physical piano keyboard, the black keys will often be referred to as the sharps but musically, sharps and flats can be on some white keys as has been discussed.

Agreed! After "circle of fifths" is understood, "Pythagorean comma" makes sense, and for anyone with a mathematical mind, might be an "Aha!" moment.

And for singers and string players, the difference between "E#" and "F" becomes significant earlier in their studies. But for a piano beginner, I fear it spreads more confusion than it does interest.

Are you still there, Rosa Beatrice? Buona sera! A question: have you considered enrolling in a beginner-level solfeggio class in your town in Italy. You oughtn't shy away from using do-ré-mi names for notes, it isn't difficult and in a setting like that you would very quickly get used to them and soon it will be second nature. I assure you that you would find it very fruitful, not to mention enjoyable.