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such a load of bull, plus so much hostility and negativity and insulting manners.

Well done mate!

First of all, why on earth shouldn't a concert be everything you mention? It can be a lovely opportunity to gain experience, to overcome stage fright, to get up there and have fun, for the parents to see what their kids have learned, and btw, as it so happens it also is a form of advertising for the teacher. Where on earth is the harm in that?

EDIT: There's no second point! hahaha!

I guess I'm looking at student recitals through rose-tinted glasses, i.e. my own experience of them when I was at high school - that of giving students who want to perform the opportunity of doing so, in front of a supportive audience of fellow students, teachers and parents. Not as a promotional opportunity for teachers, who are never mentioned in the program (unless they were also performing). The recitals were organized by the school's music department, not by the instrumental teachers themselves, and any student (or member of staff) could put themselves up for them, regardless of their standard. It was quite common for students to be partnered by their teachers or other members of staff in violin or cello recitals, though rare for a teacher to give a solo performance.

Inevitably, that means that there will be two categories of students who perform - the ones who are considering making music their career (and are almost always the gifted ones); and the ones who enjoy showing off their skills, but who aren't necessary very good. But the vast majority of music students, like myself, who have no inclination to perform in public, attend to support them and gain musical insight, maybe even inspiration (we certainly were inspired whenever we watched a certain fellow pianist who went on to win the Tchaikovsky Competition some ten years later....).

Bennevis, it sounds like the whole situation was different where you grew up. For example, the recitals happened at a school and it appears that the private teachers of the students taught at that school. This is a different scenario. Here (North America?) there are no private lessons in school, so anyone wanting to have lessons must go to a private teacher. Many of those teachers hold recitals. Whether or not those teachers want it, there will be a certain assessing of the teacher by those in the audience. In fact, the advice for "how to find a teacher" often includes "Attend a recital so you can see how good the teacher is." (Personally I disagree with this for reasons I'll explain in case anyone wants to read that explanation).

This is being seen as way too black and white by some. I suppose there will always be some teachers who use their students blatantly for their own benefit, but I think in general it simple is a reality (among other things) that teachers will be judged by what their students do, and so the teachers have to be aware of this. If we're all aware of the various realities that go with the teaching world, then this helps in communication. And it is also possible that some teachers are not that business-minded or socially aware, and might have a guest performance of this kind with no thought of gain or what the ramifications are. The real world has no sharp edges.

The business end of teaching has a number of nasties to it. For example, if one teacher takes his time to give students solid foundations while others in the area rush through material more quickly so that their students "reach grade 5" in record time, then the first teacher will appear to be "slow" and parents may flock to the second in competition with each other. If parents are oriented toward exam results, there are ways of providing those great results to the detriment of skills those students might be getting - and again the teacher giving well rounded instruction may lose students through this. Those of us who are on the outside are free to idealize the music profession, but the teachers have to deal with these things. Being aware of what goes on rather than trusting and naive may be a thing that they have to do. Actually it's a good idea for students and parents to also be aware so that we don't get taken in, and that we don't become part of the problem through our own naivete. (For example by flocking to the "faster" teacher, or the one with the perfect recitals because of how that perfect show was obtained.)

I teach at home, and also at a private school. When I had a small studio, 3 teachers combined for one recital. We were all careful to write which students belong to which teachers. It was nice and respectful, with a lovely reception afterwards.

A year ago, I was asked to accompany violin students. They all met with me beforehand, & I was paid. However, at the recital, where I was only the accompanist, several adult approached me, and asked if I was the violin teacher. Some knew that I teach piano, and thought I was branching out. Some did not know me at all, and even though mom had come to my house to have child play violin while I accompanied, the dad would ask, and have no clue who the real teacher was.

I think you are over thinking all of this. Yes, give credit where credit is due. But honestly, many parents are too busy to pay attention, so don't worry, be happy.

Oh, I DO play, just one piece, at my student recitals. And, my name is on the front cover of the program.

Happy recitaling!

This is probably addressed to AZNpiano - but I feel like saying something. There is an expression that I have come to hate with a passion - "You are overthinking this." Anything that I have "overthought" in the past has turned out to be valid and important, and because it was ignored by those who could have helped me, I've lost years in various things. If anything, I think we are in an era of "underthinking" with the result of people lurching from one avoidable problem to the next, or going in circles, or other consequences.

[/quote]such a load of bull, plus so much hostility and negativity and insulting manners.

EDIT: There's no second point! hahaha! [/quote]

I am a parent of 2 young piano students, and I felt obligated to respond.

In the ideal world, money should not be a factor in music education. But we don't live in the dream land. I came for the communist China and every one there now knows that the communism system, no one would need to worry about money when we get there, however beautiful it sounds, doesn't work.

It doesn't work for the exact reason that "No one on earth is a saint", and piano teachers by definition teaches piano for a living, how can money not being a factor?

It is not only that money is a factor for piano teachers, it is also a factor for the parents and students, actually more that that, also at stake is the child's critical development window.

So much at stake that's why we need to play fair.

Like the OP pointed out, like it or not, parents will judge a teacher by the students performance, and will automatically assume all the performance on the stage are guided by the teacher. In this case, especially if the said teacher is not capable of guiding a piano student at the advanced level, it is clearly misleading to the parents, thinking one day their kids can play like that if they continue to study piano with the teacher, forget about the new business she might get directly or indirectly related to the advanced piano performance.

Regardless how the OP felt, as a parent I would feel cheated, big time.

Is that how you felt when you played in all those recitals when you were 6 to 15 years old????

ROFL

I guess somebody out there would think that's "unprofessional."

But I agree this thread is pushing the boundaries of overthinking. I'm pretty sure the voice teacher didn't even think what she did was false advertisement or taking credit for somebody else's work. A parent asked, and she agreed. It was as simple as that.

Many years ago, when I was a young and naive piano teacher, I often had my students play at my colleagues' studio recitals. To me, it was just giving them another performance opportunity before a piano test or competition. Nobody ever bothered to mention that "guests" were performing. I never thought that my colleagues were using me and my students to promote themselves, as my students were typically a lot more advanced than their students.

I was a salaried teacher working for a public school district, and money was never a problem until the district cut my programs and I was forced to teach piano full time. Then the realities of an economy-driven world dawned on me.

What stands out to me in all of this is that the student has been performing piano pieces in another studio's recitals for over a year. And is apparently the most advanced student at the recitals (the OP mentions that the other teacher couldn't begin to teach the pieces the student is playing.) That raises red flags for me. A sufficiently advanced student such as this usually TELLS HIS TEACHER when he is performing ANYWHERE. Why did the student never bother to mention these performances for over a year? I'm guessing all of us here have studied piano pretty seriously. If we were performing at the school talent show or playing an offertory at church, WE WOULD TELL OUR TEACHERS. The fact the piano teacher was "made aware" of this going on for over a year is a huge red flag that something is amiss. Was the student asked not to inform the other teacher? I'm not saying that's what happened, but it would be customary for a student to discuss ANY recent performances with their teacher.

I don't know how it's handled elsewhere, but where I'm from (small Southern US city), a student studying advanced repertoire would ALWAYS consult with their teacher about ANY significant performances. Studying at an advanced level in high school, college and conservatory is serious business for many folks and what is happening here isn't fair to the piano teacher. Studio piano recitals are to showcase what students have learned from a teacher. It's not a talent show for anyone to enter. All students appearing from other studios should be noted that they are appearing as a guest of Teacher XYZ. If I had pulled something like this in college with my voice professor, I'd have surely been scolded. No, a teacher does not "own" a student, but the student owes the teacher that respect.

The fact that this advanced student kept this information away from his teacher for over a year says to me he/she knew this was a bit shady. That's my $0.02.

You're absolutely right, the teacher should sack his student forthwith.

And leave her with no teacher. That'll teach her to pull fast ones like this, on her renowned teacher.

She'll have to make her own way to Juilliard. On her own.

Not unless they asked.

Nowhere in my post does it say any of that at all.

I didn't want to take that path in my posts, but mixed in there somewhere is an ounce of sentiment toward respect.

It's amazing how many students will audition for something, offer to play somewhere, and not tell the teacher. Why is this bad? Because then I miss out on a chance to help them prepare for it. For some reason, they often feel like they need to forge ahead on their own, or something. So I make a point of letting them know that I am open to helping them with things that come up, or music that they want to work on. I will often ask them about the school musical, or talent shows that come up to find out if they are auditioning, and assist them in whatever way I can.

I'm not really sure why students aren't open about this, but perhaps they think I wouldn't be interested in helping them, that there's music that we do in lessons and music you do elsewhere. Anyways, keeping that door open and asking questions seems to help.

Hi Morodiene:

To reply to you question about what you have mentioned why student are not open about audition elsewhere or other opportunities. As a student myself, I can tell from my perspective, my teacher is rather conservative in a sense she would not want me to even try to play a piece in public if it is not polished to near perfect. I am on the other hand a risk taker and like to challenge myself. Even I don't have a well polished piece so what. I still want to try it out and if it failed and it failed, but I would gain experience and do better next time. Lots of times, tell her and she will say no and then after couple of times I just don't want to tell her anymore.

But this is just my thinking and my situation.

I think there are two types of parents/students. Those with experience who come from experience and those who are winging it. It would never cross my mind (before coming here) to tell a teacher/coach that my child was performing with/for someone else. I would just be pleased as punch she was asked and go on my merry way.

It's sort of like tipping or giving a gift to the mail carrier/sanitation workers/teachers/coaches etc during the holidays. If you are not exposed to this practice, it isn't something I would think of doing unless I read it somewhere or someone told me.

the burden has to be on the professional and if the teacher does not know it is common courtesy, it is nice that a mentor/peer is willing to tell her so she doesn't forget to give credit in the future.

This is also a good time to let the parents know too so in the future they can ask the other teacher to include their piano teacher in the credit.

At the heart of this post, and many other posts on this forum, is a seeming unwillingness on the part of piano teachers to rock the boat, or to tarnish their reputation with an unjustified outburst of anger. Why not take the risk?

The worst that can happen is:
People think of you as a teacher who demands respect.
You lose the student.
Your colleague thinks of you as overly sensitive.

None of these results is all that bad.

I know I wouldn't know how to properly navigate the situation if two teachers had differing views. As I understand it, AZN believes that she should receive credit at the other teacher's recital for her student's piano playing (as seems supported by other teachers in this thread) but the other teacher hasn't taken the initiative to do so. In my opinion if this situation is not handled carefully, the student could end up being in middle/causality. The conscientious student could feel like she did something wrong/and or lose the opportunity to perform in public at her voice recital and I think that would be sad. Should it be the student's responsibility to ensure the other teacher gets credit?

Why do you presume AZN is a she?