Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Can an upright really be that good?

Heya, if you recall me from previous posts, I'm on a quest to find a very good piano, and so far I was looking at models like the Kawai K500 and the Yamaha YUS5, I was not that thrilled by either and I thought well, an upright is just an upright after all, and if I want a really good piano I should eventually get a good grand like a C2X.

Today a piano dealer near me had some Bluthner model Ds on the floor. They sell around CAN$23000. I honestly didn't think an upright could sound that good. And it's barely 46" tall, and it was almost straight out of the box, very little prep work. I vividly remember the last time I visited this shop, I was very impressed by the Kawai GX-2. Well, comparing that grand piano with the diminutive Bluthner model D, the GX-2 is clearly a downgrade. There's no contest, it sounds like junk next the to the Bluthner. The Bluthner has a rich, open, singing tone, has great sustain, it's extremely expressive, beautiful pp, the bass is powerful and well-defined - really I could not find a flaw with it, except that it's still "just an upright".

I also remembered trying out a Yamaha C2X at another shop and thinking that it was wonderful. So after extensively playing the Bluthner and comparing it with other models on the floor, I left for the Yamaha dealer and tried out the C1X, C2X and C3X (forget the YUS5, it doesn't stand a chance). Well, they were certainly a pleasure to play - especially the C2X and C3X - and they certainly sounded better than the Kawai GX-2 IMO, but again, not even nearly as balanced and pleasing to the ear as the Bluthner.

The C2X does have the advantage of being a grand piano. Playing a grand is just not the same physical feeling. I still much prefer the feeling of playing a grand - there's something exhilarating about it that you don't get on a upright, however good it may sound. Until today I was fairly convinced I would end up buying the C2X, but playing the Bluthner model D has made me very confused. It's of course technically inferior and not as pleasing to play, but the sound... it's very simple, I'd have to get into probably $50000+ grand pianos to equate it, let alone surpass it.

Thoughts? Am I a fool to consider spending 23000$ on an upright when I could get a quality grand like a C2X for around the same price? Would you trade the action and power of a grand for superior tone and expressiveness?

I think only you can answer this question, but an upright--no matter how special it is--certainly will not retain its resale value the same way a grand will, nor will it offer in its action the same kind of level of expression you would find in a grand. But yes, I can believe an upright can sound that good. What is your budget? Where do you live? These questions might help us make suggestions that could open up new possibilities you may not have been aware of.

Joe 80 is our Bluthner man! Maybe he will chip in.

I have a Bechstein B and a Bechstein III. The III is the forerunner of the model 8. I won't say which of the 2 my teacher prefers, but it isn't the B!

On uprights, Bluthner, Grotrian Steinweg and Bechstein seem to be as good as they get.

Are these facts or opinion? I prefer the the touch of my upright to the grand.

This is more from a broader standpoint--a bell curve if you will, but it is still my subjective opinion in the end, as many things are.

I think all things being equal a grand should offer a larger dynamic range of touch and tone to an upright, but this obviously varies greatly on things like scale design, the condition of the instrument, level of prep, etc. If it were ME, I would appreciate the Bluthner greatly for what it is but continue my search and broaden my options at that price point.

Really you have to make a decision based on which piano you prefer. The Bluthner is a good piano of course, but so is the C2X. You're certainly not the first person to face this dilemma of tier one upright vs production line grand, and I have quite often found that as an over all playing experience I prefer uprights from Bechstein, Schimmel, Bluthner, Sauter, Steinway etc to grands from Kawai and Yamaha, but again I say, it depends on individual pianos.

It sounds like you actually prefer the Bluthner upright to the Yamaha grand, and you're looking for our opinion to see if we can validate it or put you off. If the only advantage of the Yamaha is that you can play a little bit faster on it but everything else isn't as good, then personally I'd go with the Bluthner because I'm a sucker for tone. If I felt that the Yamaha was better in every way then I'd go with the Yamaha.

A grand might have some advantages particularly in terms of action, but an upright has advantages in terms of space. Go back and spend more time with each piano, and go with your gut on this one. You're basically choosing between two excellent pianos, it's hard to make the wrong choice here.

Excellent advice from Markarian and Joe. Remember to engage a good tech to keep the one you choose in tip-top condition.

I'd agree with Joe on this one. Only you can make the choice. I'm personally probably not as discerning as you, as having tried a lot of tier one uprights, my own take was very much that the performance increase from the best "production line" uprights, while noticeable, wasn't nearly enough to justify the price hike. But when I tried some high quality "production line" grands, I felt a huge difference in performance. Alas, while I had the budget for that kind of piano, I didn't have the space, so bought a YUS5 which I've been very happy with.

But If I'd had the space, there's no doubt that the piano coming home with me would have been a C2X or C3X. Yet for me, while I could clearly have chosen to spend similar money on a tier 1 upright, none to me offered enough over the YUS5 to justify the spend involved (well, there were a couple that may have made me think twice, but in one case I would never have given the dealer involved my money, and the other I didn't try until after I bought).

So for me, the grand would be the clear winner. But the key thing here, is that I'm not you. I'm an intermediate level jazz player who appreciates a strong fundemental tone, good power and projection, and a flexible action as my top priorities. For the way I play, a piano can actually have too much depth of tone. So my priorities might very different to yours, especially If you place a high value on a "complex" tone, as it is here where the best uprights are most likely to have an edge over good mass produced grands

It actually took me the best part of six Months of searching and listening to people before I really understood what I liked and why. It sounds like you're getting there much quicker (it appears you're smarter than me as well as more discerning ), and so it's purely a matter of what you like. As Joe says, they're both great choices, so you just have to choose what works best for you. I don't think there's a "right" answer here. And that's before you consider the option of searching for used tier 1 / 2 grands.

This is a very good point actually. This is part of the reason why I kind of gravitate towards Blüthner and Bösendorfer, which seem to have a very pure sound - as does Yamaha - and away from Steinway and the American pianos which seem to have grit in the sound. It's not that one is better than the other, it's not that Blüthner is better than Steinway or Mason and Hamlin, but my preference is for that very pure sound.

What you'll probably find with the Blüthner upright when compared to the C2X is that it has a more pure and singing tone in the treble. There's the melody octave which goes from the G above middle C (or thereabouts) for an octave and a half, and that part of the piano is usually a bit weak in sound. In many makes, Yamaha and Kawai included, and Steinway actually, this is a bit of a problem (depending on the model because some pianos are better than others, and there is variance between any two instruments), but I've yet to play on a Blüthner which has this particular problem.

If it helps, one time when I was in Steinway Hall in London I was talking to Maura and she was saying that the Steinway Model K upright has a far superior tone in her opinion to any Boston grand, and I have to agree, it's beautiful. But she said that for any music student who had a budget of £28,000 as it was at that time, she would feel more comfortable about steering them towards a Boston 178 because of the grand action. I'm not sure I agree entirely because learning to play on the piano with the most beautiful sound is, to me, of slightly higher importance than having a grand piano action, but not everybody shares that view.

That would be accurate :P

Yes! Yamahas tend to sounds "thin" in that area. At worst - when not well-adjusted - it sounds a bit like a synthesizer. The Bluthner is just in another league there, and that's where most of the melody is in classical music.

It's not just the faster action, it's the effortless pianissimo due to the double escapement, it's the feedback in the fingers where you're playing against gravity rather than a spring, it's the incomparable projection, especially in the bass... You know, it's a grand. That's why it's not that clear cut to me, although what is clear cut is that despite not having any of that grand-ness, the Bluthner sounds vastly better.

At this point I'm thinking I should suck up my desire for a grand piano - which I don't even have space for at the moment, although I should in a year or so when I move - stop stretching my budget and get the Bluthner, and sometimes later in life, when I have more money, get a grand that can compete on tone.

Ah, thanks for the precision. I knew you liked the YUS5 most but now I understand your standpoint a lot better. I play classical and currently some Nocturnes by Chopin. It's all about the beauty and richness of each individual note That's where I think having a complex, overtone-rich sound is most important.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all your opinions! I could broaden my search but that would imply going to Toronto (I'm in Montreal, QC). I'm not sure I will. I might have fallen in love.

No harm in a trip to Toronto, asik. Several high-end piano stores here. And there's no need to rush a major purchase like this. Send me a pm should you wish.

But I can agree with you this far: I played a new large Bluthner upright a few years ago (US$ 35,000 or so!) and it was a glorious experience. A stunningly refined instrument, and indeed the best upright I have ever encountered.

I have both an upright and a grand. My upright is quite a nice one, and has Renner action. IT was very difficult for us to find a used grand piano that had a better feel/tone. So yes, an Upright can be quite amazing... it comes down to personal preference. The nuances between the two of my pianos are quite different also. The feel of the grand is great, the action is more responsive, but the upright still is an amazing instrument. IF space isn't an issue, I would go for a grand... because you can do more with it... But if space is a limitation (as it was when I purchased my upright in 2005), you can find a noteworthy upright that will serve you well!

Just my $.02

You know something, although I own two Blüthner grands, I have been doing a lot of practice on a Kemble Cambridge 10 at school. You're right, it's hard to get an upright to play as pianissimo as a grand, but I've found with patience and practice, it can be done and in fact I've found that it forces me to be more reliant on my own technique than the piano's action which is a good thing.

I'm of the view that it matters less what's under your fingers and more how you approach it. Of course there is a point at which a piano isn't suitable at all, and of course there are better actions and worse actions, and in general a grand action gives you more scope, but when those tier one uprights are properly set up they are excellent. I can do hard passages from Rach 3 on the Kemble now and it's not well set up, so I don't think you'll play the Bluthner and wish it was a grand.

Thanks Asik, it's not that I liked the YUS5 best of all the uprights, there are clearly some better ones out there. It's just that with the YUS5 being as nice (and equally importantly, being as well suited to my particular needs) as it was, I felt that for me, the tier 1 uprights weren't better by a big enough margin to justify the big price jump that you get going from the best "mass produced" pianos to top tier. But I didfeel that the performance jump from a YUS5 to a high quality "mass produced" grand was worth the money. Indeed, another reason for me not to spend "tier 1" money on an upright, is that I knew spending that much would irritate me when their were other similarly priced (grand) pianos that I would much rather have, even though the fact that I can't fit a grand in my house made that point moot.

But of course, the fact that my thought process and musical needs are so different to yours is as good an example as any as why the only opinion that really matters here is yours. I or anyone else can have an opinion, but a musical instrument is so personal that only you can really judge what's right for you, especially when you have a clear idea of what you like and why. The only thing I will say, is that it sounds like you have a clear preference for a particular instrument in full knowledge of the pros and cons of that choice. If that's the case, then surely you know what to do ?

I'm very much with Joe on this discussion: the tone is what really matters most. You will be better served by an instruments that really touches you with its sound than by an action with a sound you don't really "feel". The action is just a means to an end. The action is there to help you get the tone out of your instrument. I don't see much point in an action that triggers a sound you don't really love. Unless you need very fast repetition for some reason, you'll be happier with the Bluthner. You can enjoy it and love it until such time arrives when you can afford your ultimate grand piano with a sound that is even better, with an action that is better too. But a Bluthner upright is enough piano for most people - even many classical professionals. Don't get too caught up with the action thing. You are buying a complete instrument. It appears the Bluthner is the most complete instrument you have found so far. Good luck with making your decision.

This sounds like good advice to me. Especially if, as you say, "the Bluthner sounds vastly better".

So, returned to the piano store to try it again, this time alone and with all my sheet music on hand.

Bach - Well-Tempered clavier vol.2, prelude and fugue in c minor. Firm, precise, responsive action, beautiful tone, almost too expressive for this kind of music. "I am not a harpsichord" it seemed to say. Voicing comes naturally.

Prokofiev - 8th sonata mvt 1. Perhaps I'm biased by my Baldwin's muddy bass, but the low-end here was so well-defined, almost piercing? I couldn't get some of the darker tones I feel are necessary here. This is perhaps a recurring theme, but the piano really wants to sing, and sometimes what I want is something totally not lyrical. Sometimes I don't want to hear each note distinctively but to hear the cluster (and there are delicious clusters in Prokofiev) for itself.

Interestingly, I could get this effect on a Bluthner grand right next to it (80000$, one day maybe), and also on a Kawai K400. Perhaps the piano needs voicing to make it a bit darker, or just more even maybe?

Otherwise, its lyrical quality and commanding bass - really grand-like - are formidable assets for this music. Great, almost haunting pp.

Prokofiev - 3rd sonata, lyrical middle section. Hadn't played this for a while so I wasn't in very good control - sounded awesome for this music, definitely.

Scriabin - etude op. 8 no 12 (oh yeah, that one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHKRuxiIKiU ). You need absolutely kickass bass for this and the Bluthner delivers, it was amazing. You also need a wide dynamic range in treble and while I find myself overwhelming my Baldwin at home, I felt like I wasn't nearly fully using this piano's range. I'd really need to re-work this piece specifically to take advantage of the Bluthner.

Rachmaninov - prelude op. 32 no 9. Where the highly lyrical bass was sometimes a liability in Prokofiev, here it's just fantastic. The writing is very dense and the left-hand melody can easily get buried, but I could effortlessly bring it out. The only limiting factor here was me.

Opening notes of Debussy's La Cathédrale Engloutie: sublime. The upper-end of this piano is like no other, perhaps "ghostly" or "angelic" best describes it. However, getting that very even, soft, consonant sound required good control. Not as easy as on a grand, but definitely feasible.

And of course it seemed designed specifically for playing Chopin's Nocturnes.

Overall I would describe it as powerful and lyrical. The exterior is modern and elegant. It needs voicing to keep some of the lower mid-range from standing out too much.

Yes - if you in fact can get the grand for same/similar price.

And if you like to get a top notch upright, you can spend far less than that!

No names mentioned to protect the innocent...

Norbert

Retailer price was 26000$ for the C2X, so it's the same ballpark. Care to elaborate on your points?

I strongly agree with your view, and also Joe's.

For one who really knows the magic to "control" (not only "strike"), a tier 1 German piano will serve her/him well, whether it is a grand or an upright.

And..sound is more than anything