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I’m using Alfred’s Level 1B for children. It’s a good book and I know it’s meant to be used with a teacher but I don’t have one.

I’m on page 15, trying to learn a song called, “The Clown.”

I’m on G position, which is already enough to confuse me. (It really surprised me to see a different hand position but I guess I should have seen it coming, considering the piano has 88 keys and I’ve only got 10 fingers.☺) This song has an A flat and a B flat. They don’t actually tell you what finger to use on their little picture of the keyboard but in the music it says to play B flat with your third finger on both treble and bass clef, and A flat, which appears only in the treble clef, with your second finger. I can read English, but I have to ask to make sure. Are those the fingers I’m supposed to be using?

They also say that, if a flat sign appears before a note, it apples to that note for the rest of the measure. When they say the rest of the measure, does that mean even if the note appears in both the treble clef and the bass clef in that measure, or just the clef that the note appears in?

The song also has slurs and a tie. The curved lines that indicate the slurs and the ties look very much the same to me. But I’m thinking that the line can’t be a tie if it connects different notes, right? But what about a slur? Can that apply to the same note repeated?

In one measure, there’s a G-D harmonic interval (whole note) connected to a G-D harmonic interval (whole note) in the next measure. Couldn’t that be a slur? I’ve playing it as a tie, but I’m not really sure that’s right.

Also, they explain on this page that Da Capo al Fine means repeat from the beginning and play to the end. (I’ve been living in Italy long enough to know what da capo al fine means, although I have to say that I always thought that a Fermata is where you wait for the bus.☺)

The song is four lines long. D.C. al Fine appears at the end of the song. Fine appears at the end of the second line. So, I play from the beginning to the end and then go back up and play the first two lines again, right?

I think I read somewhere that a line is the grand staff from the beginning at the left to the end at the right. Right?

At the beginning of the book, they have a picture of the grand staff and there’s a huge { that they call a brace but they don’t say what it’s supposed to tell me. What does brace mean?

I really don’t know what I’d do without this site!

I'm not a teacher but I'll try to help you.


Yes


Just the clef in which the alteration appears in.


Not sure about this...


That should be a tie.



Right!


Never thought about this... Maybe it means that they should be played together?

A brace is used to join multiple staves that represent a single instrument, such as a piano.

Whew! That's a lot of questions! I'll reply individually.


It's hard to answer that without seeing the music, but if this is a 5-finger position then yes, you would normally play with those fingers.


None of the above. It applies only to the specific line on which the accidental is written. Suppose you have a flat on the first line of the treble clef. That is an E. Only this E is flat. There is another E on the treble staff up on the last space, but that one is NOT affected by the flat. Neither is any other E note in the bass staff or anywhere, just the one with the accidental.


Think about this. A slur means that you play the note legato; in other words you connect the notes and play them smoothly. How would you do this if you have to lift your finger and play the same note again? Of course you can't. Therefore, a line linking the same notes is always a tie not a slur.


That's correct.


In music written for an orchestra or a large choir there are usually several parts with different notes written on top of each other and each instrument/voice plays one of these parts. The brace is to show that two staves are played simultaneously by one instrument, in this case the piano.


I think you should really get a teacher. It would be tremendously more useful and faster than trusting the good will of random people on the Internet.

Are you using plain Alfred or Alfred Premier? My sense from posts from teachers is that Alfred Premier is better (perhaps including moving you around the keyboard more thoughtfully do you don't end up stuck in position playing).

I second the suggestion to get a teacher if possible.

Thanks everyone. I think I should get a teacher, too, but it's too complicated and expensive where I am. Besides, if I had a teacher she'd probably run screaming in the middle of the first lesson.

No.

It applies to only that note, on that line or space.

It does not apply to any other notes anywhere, on that clef, or on the other clef.

And, it ceases to exist on the bar line that finishes that measure.

If you showed up playing absolutely perfectly and knowing everything, then she probably would indeed find no reason for you being there. But if you showed up needing to learn how to do things, and needing knowledge, s/he would welcome this, because that's a teacher's job. However, if you first misteach yourself, so that the teacher first has to undo wrong learning, then it becomes much harder.

I thought she already did understand that. She also did understand that it lasts 'til the end of that measure. I was answering the question "does this apply to both clefs or just the clef in which the alteration is?".
I guess I wasn't clear, in that case... My fault.

Edit: I didn't understand correctly that question, now I do... My fault.

No problem!

Rosa, "When you are ready, the teacher will appear." That's a lovely saying.

Check at the middle schools in your area.
They almost all offer after school music programs, and the teachers may very well accept adults. I got both my first and current my teacher through this kind of program.

And it isn't expensive.

Just noticed your signature line! Zevon!

Originally Posted By RosaBeatrice


The song also has slurs and a tie. The curved lines that indicate the slurs and the ties look very much the same to me. But I’m thinking that the line can’t be a tie if it connects different notes, right? But what about a slur? Can that apply to the same note repeated?

Hi, Qazsedcft! Just to remind you, here's your answer to the above:

Think about this. A slur means that you play the note legato; in other words you connect the notes and play them smoothly. How would you do this if you have to lift your finger and play the same note again? Of course you can't. Therefore, a line linking the same notes is always a tie not a slur.

*******
I thought about it before I wrote my question and I've thought about it since I read your answer. And I still don't get it.

If lifting my finger doesn't prevent me from playing legato when it involves two different notes, why should lifting my finger prevent me from playing legato when it involves the same note repeated?

I'll accept your answer, but your reason doesn't make any sense to me.

You achieve legato between two different notes by releasing the key of the first note at exactly the same time when pressing the key of the second note. This is not possible when playing the same note twice, because you simply cannot release and press the same key at the same time.

Having said that, legato is actually achieved by playing the second note before the damper of the first note is (fully) lowered on the string and thus (audibly) cuts off the first note. On a grand piano (with double escapement) it is actually possible to do this with a single key, by not fully releasing the key (=damper stays up) and then pressing it again (=plays same note again, while it was still sounding from the previous key press). Also you can of course (sort of) achieve this with the sustain pedal (by keeping all dampers off all strings) or the sostenuto pedal (if you have one, by keeping only the damper[s] of the already played note off the strings).

So theoretically, at least on a grand piano, it is possible to play the same note legato (not tied). That however would then not be notated with a curved line directly between the heads of the two notes, as that curved line would always mean a tie of the two notes. But there may be a legato or phrasing bow over a whole group of notes, that also includes a sequence of same notes, so if your instrument and technical skills permit, you can then play these same notes legato too.

Have you tried it? I doubt you can make it sound really legato.

People say that legato means lifting one note while playing the next but in reality legato still has a tiny millisecond overlap between the two notes. You can exaggerate this effect playing "legatissimo" which means "very legato" where the overlap is more noticeable.

Anyway, a great way to clarify things for a beginner is to start talking about double escapement and the sostenuto pedal...

Hugh Sung is a wonderful teacher who does Skype lessons - http://www.hughsung.com/

Exactly. You shouldn't dismiss any question, but a one sentence answer with a 'it doesn't really matter for us right now' is often the best answer for beginners. Music is complicated, but things are many times easier to understand once you have the basics under control and can appreciate things in practise. Diving off the deep end in theory with no grounding is rarely useful.

I love this forum!

Now I know how my English students felt when I got carried away with a beginner and explained the grammar more than he or she needed or was able to understand.

Damper pedals were going to be my next question but I think it should wait.

But at least I think I understand now why the same note can't be a tie. Or was it legato?

Maybe I should take an aspirin and lie down.

Thanks!

Okay, now I’ve got a new dilemma. Someone on this forum said that, when the same notes are connected with that curved line, it’s always a tie, and that when the notes connected are different it’s always a slur. He explained why and that made sense to me and was helpful.

But I’m using Alfred’s Level 1B, for kids, and there’s this one song from heck that’s driving me crazy.

It’s called The Clown. It’s 4/4 time and the second to last measure on the first line is, for the right hand, G A Bb C, obviously all quarter notes. The last measure on the first line, for the right hand, is D GAb (harmonic interval) GAb (harmonic interval), the first two notes quarter and the last note half.

The left hand is all rests in these two measures.

Getting back to slurs and ties: The entire right hand of these last two measures has the curved line beginning with the first note (G) and extending to include the last note (the second GAb). In other words, the first five notes are different from each other and the last two notes are the same as each other.

So, is this thing a slur or a tie? How do I know? How do I play it? I’ve been playing the whole two measures as a slur, (more or less, which is the best I can do) including the last two notes. Should I be playing the last two notes, since they’re the same, as though they were one note, a dotted quarter note?

Then, on the last line, the first measure says, for the right hand, Bb C D Bb. In the left hand there’s one whole note, a harmonic interval GD. The first Bb played with the GD sounds terrible. And it’s not me! Unless it’s my ears and not my fingers because I’ve checked and looked and made sure my fingers were where they were supposed to be and I’ve consulted the tiny chart on the top of the page and it sounds terrible. God awful! And yet, when I hear the second Bb with the GD, it sounds okay.

Is it the fault of my fingers or my ears? Could these be typos? Is my piano not working properly?

Or am I just in the twilight zone?

And it doesn’t end there. There’s a song called Waltz Time. The third to last measure has, for the right hand, a whole rest. The second to last measure has a quarter rest and two quarter EG harmonic intervals. The last measure has a dotted quarter EG harmonic interval.

For the left hand, the third to last measure has the quarter notes G A B. The second to last measure has a dotted quarter middle C and the last measure also has a dotted quarter middle C.

Over the last three measures, for the left hand, there’s a curved line connecting the first note of the third to last measure to the last note of the last measure. Then, under that curved line, is another curved line connecting the two dotted quarter notes middle C of the second to last measure and middle C of the last measure.

Is that a tie within a slur? How do I play it?

There are curved lines all over the place in the next couple of songs. And I can’t understand a damned thing.

What I’d really like to do is just forget that this stupid little Clown exists. I’m several songs beyond The Clown. I started it on December 27. I can play it in the sense that I get the notes right three times out of five. But how many months does it take to perfect a song that has a total of 16 simple measures?

All I really wanted to do was play a few songs that I like. For me to aspire to being a great pianist would not only make me look like an idiot but it would be a terrible offense to every serious musician on the planet earth.

I’ve been thinking that, if I’m going to suffer with these little kiddy songs, maybe I should get some simplified sheet music for the songs that I’d like to play. At least, that would be worth the suffering and I’d also have the advantage of knowing how the song is supposed to sound.

If you could show us a picture of these problem areas, you might get more/better responses. I will say that a better way of thinking about the tie/slur difference is that a tie always connects two adjacent identical notes. That is two and only two. If the curved line connects more than two, or the connected notes are not identical, then it's a slur.

It often occurs that you will have tied notes under a slur. And, unlike what someone said earlier, you can have repeated notes under a slur. The problem is that the slur is not always used consistently to indicate legato, sometimes (often, actually) it is used to indicate general phrasing. Think singing, where you have to pause to take a breath.

Edit: found a nice web page showing the three uses for the same curved line: Here