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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Are you defending the intolerant? I'm not saying you are but I don't really understand the points being made - they just read like glib cliches.....

What kind of intolerance should we tolerate? Race intolerance? Religious intolerance?


Racial and religious intolerance are widespead. No one seems to mind as long as you are on the "correct" side of the debate.

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Originally Posted by slipperykeys
Originally Posted by peterws
Life is full of clichés,


I am surprised to read because I thought life was full of surprises.


grin

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Edited

Last edited by Mta88; 08/03/13 10:37 PM.

Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:KRK Rokit 6 gen 3 Pair Studio Monitors::Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian, Steinway B, Steinway D,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Bluthner Baby Grand,
Acoustics:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright:
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Edited.

Last edited by Mta88; 08/03/13 10:37 PM.

Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:KRK Rokit 6 gen 3 Pair Studio Monitors::Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian, Steinway B, Steinway D,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Bluthner Baby Grand,
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I'm confused. I thought this was a Piano forum.

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[IMPORTANT NOTE]

As for the post that had been removed by the moderator:

1) The original post that contained the video has been removed and I have already made a formal apology.

2) Please note I recommend that everyone stop posting their comments to this "OT" part of the thread as the moderator may step in to end it.

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Yes I am confused as well. To get back on topic: Although there's a bit of hyperbole, I kind of get what SL is saying - kind of. The 850 meets a lot of people's needs quite well and the V is probably overkill and over budget for most.

I really don't find such absolute statements, like "this is better than that" useful. It really depends on your needs, budget and preferences.



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Yes, I also get what he's saying, but there have been a lot of posts from the same poster decrying just about anything other than a select few entry level models. That would be fine if the poster backed up his statements with some sort of evidence or examples, showing that the improved actions, superior dynamics and less sterile sound of the more expensive models were either an illusion or completely unnecessary for advanced works (not to mention enhanced enjoyment).


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You guys are being too kind. I am all for spreading the love, and encouraging discourse from people with different opinions. However, this bloke (Starving Lion) has proven himself to be a bona fide troll. Just look at his post history. Heck, he cannot even start an original post/thread without disparaging a particular digital piano model or manufacturer (take your pick, it seems to change on a daily basis)...and, more often than not, his posts are downright disrespectful and insulting to his fellow forum members.

I have belonged to a lot of different music forums, and I have never seen someone get away with the type of negative and inflammatory posts he has gotten away with, without being banned. I guess this forum is more lax when it comes to these types of personalities. It is too bad, because whatever the topic, if SL gets involved, it typically is derailed in some fashion or other.

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+5 Tritium ... this board seems fairly non-moderated. I guess that's better than some boards where the mod bans everyone who expresses a different opinion than the mod.

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Originally Posted by Nigeth
If I wanted to troll or provoke a 'healthy' and 'lively' discussion I'd argue that an acoustic piano is an dated and outmoded instrument that is rather impractical to use. It's heavy, very expensive, requires continual and expensive maintenance, is very susceptible to humidity and temperature, doesn't lend itself for integration into a modern band context (jazz, blues, rock or otherwise) because it cannot easily be amplified and connected to a PA or speakers and that it is generally a high maintenance instrument wink .

I'd also argue that an instrument that can cost upwards of $200,000 but is easily replacable by an electronic 'emulation' can't be that great to begin with wink .

While this would be trolling and could be considered immature and out of line it does raise a few interesting points though. It's easy to argue that the copy will never even begin to approach the original if I compare a Ford Model T to a Ferrari 458 or in case of this thread a Casio PX 850 to a Steinway Acoustic Grand.

It also neglects that - while being expertly crafted and having a certain pedigree - even those 'superinstruments' are by no means the embodiments of perfection. (I can hear the word 'sacrilege' being shouted at me right now).

So I'd first like to ask what purpose the instrument should serve, what music you'd like to play and what facilities you have - monetary or otherwise - to support it.

A Bösendorfer Acoustic Grand Piano is seven foot long, weighs nearly half a ton and costs as much as a whole house (or said Ferrari 458). For a quarter of a million dollars I pretty much expect the best of the best yet even though Marc Bellamy (the keyboarder of Muse) might own one he'll never use it on stage. Heck even Elton John doesn't really play a Steinway Grand on tour even though he has one on stage. That's because after tinkering with a real acoustic for two decades he and his engineer decided that it was generally to much hassle to capture the sound on stage and feed it to the mixer. He uses the piano because he wants a Steinway action but it usually triggers external equipment to generate the sound.

To truly judge the merit of an instrument a real musician usually considers all the factors because we here in the real world accept that each instruments has constraints and was designed for a particular purpose and/or type of music.

Even if I had the means to do so I'd probably still never buy a Concert Grand of any brand because I'd have to pretty much design the whole house around this particular instrument and yet it still wouldn't sound as great as it does in a concert hall. That's because it isn't designed so that the player can maximize his or her enjoyment of the music he or she plays, it's designed to be heard by every member of the audience in a giant concert hall. So I'd probably go for one of the smaller ones (Studio or similar) which is smaller and therefore has a different sound (not just less loud).

If your band is still at the stage where each member has to carry and set up his own equipment you'll probably won't use an acoustic piano because you'd have to load, unload and carry it yourself to each venue, you'd have to invest hours at each venue to capture the sound right and to get a good mix and to maximize the sound you'd pretty much have to tune the instrument each evening. (That's why EJ had his own personal piano tuner on tour with him)

Then there's the whole topic of 'actions': People always talk like there is just one god given piano action that is perfect for every player and due to it's divinity is pretty much perfect.

My personal favourite is the fact that digital piano manufacturers have added a 'graded action' to their devices because it's considered to be more like the real thing while the designers of acoustic actions specifically try to prevent keys with different heft because it is seen as a flaw. Still you can get anything from ultra heavy to ultra light, from graded to non graded, from truly bad to excellent.

Even the best piano will have a very bad action after it has been subjected to the 'torture' of being used as a teaching instrument at a conservatory or music school for a few years and the topic of what acoustic is best is as controversially debated as political affiliations are.

So in essence claiming that a DP is always worse than a Concert Grand is ridiculous. For one because it is an apples to onions comparison, both instruments serve different purposes, secondly because when you compare a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen Golf and your main attribute for comparison is 'luxuriousness' then the Golf will obviously lose. If you are in the market for a 'practical' car though then it would also be a pointless comparison.

More importantly though: A combination of for example a Kawai VPC 1 and Ivory II will - for the price of $1500 + the cost of a PC - easily best nearly all entry level upright or grand pianos (starting at $6000 for a very cheap upright or probably closer to $12,000 for a cheap grand) both in feel of the action and probably sound (yes, you heard me right). An entry level acoustic isn't simply better by virtue of it being acoustic or costing more. The number of parts, the manual labor and the small number of instruments sold pretty much mean that even the piano-equivalent of an epiphone guitar will set you back a few grand. Just look at the acoustic instruments that are usually recommended over here an upright usually goes for $8,000 - not for a great one just for one that is decent enought to actually warrant buying it.

So if you want to buy a good acoustic grand then go ahead and do it you don't need to justify your decision by nitpicking and listing all the flaws of a digital, it's a frivolous purchase so simply own the decision. You should consider however that there is a reason why a huge chunk of contemporary music from all genres doesn't use a piano and that this changed in recent decades because keyboards and digital pianos became more common and it was suddenly that much more practical to actually play one.

The piano currently goes through a sort of renaissance. A lot of current stars and up and comers write songs for the piano, performers of classical music are getting more popular and there is s surge of people that want to learn the piano because they have heard great songs by people like Adele. That's all because it has never been easier and more affordable to own a piano and because digitals are 'good' enough so thatz you don't necessarily need a real acoustic.

I consider that to be A Good Thing (TM).


I know it's been two years, but this was such a great post I wanted to bookmark it for posterity.


"We pianists can learn a lot by emulating guitarists....think of a "typical" guitarist. Someone teaches them 3 or 4 chords and they immediately start strumming away and playing dozens of songs. Amazing, right? It's that easy, too, on piano...and you'll be having a lot of fun without much effort!"
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Originally Posted by Tobicus
Originally Posted by Nigeth
If I wanted to troll or provoke a 'healthy' and 'lively' discussion I'd argue that an acoustic piano is an dated and outmoded instrument that is rather impractical to use. It's heavy, very expensive, requires continual and expensive maintenance, is very susceptible to humidity and temperature, doesn't lend itself for integration into a modern band context (jazz, blues, rock or otherwise) because it cannot easily be amplified and connected to a PA or speakers and that it is generally a high maintenance instrument wink .

I'd also argue that an instrument that can cost upwards of $200,000 but is easily replacable by an electronic 'emulation' can't be that great to begin with wink .

While this would be trolling and could be considered immature and out of line it does raise a few interesting points though. It's easy to argue that the copy will never even begin to approach the original if I compare a Ford Model T to a Ferrari 458 or in case of this thread a Casio PX 850 to a Steinway Acoustic Grand.

It also neglects that - while being expertly crafted and having a certain pedigree - even those 'superinstruments' are by no means the embodiments of perfection. (I can hear the word 'sacrilege' being shouted at me right now).

So I'd first like to ask what purpose the instrument should serve, what music you'd like to play and what facilities you have - monetary or otherwise - to support it.

A Bösendorfer Acoustic Grand Piano is seven foot long, weighs nearly half a ton and costs as much as a whole house (or said Ferrari 458). For a quarter of a million dollars I pretty much expect the best of the best yet even though Marc Bellamy (the keyboarder of Muse) might own one he'll never use it on stage. Heck even Elton John doesn't really play a Steinway Grand on tour even though he has one on stage. That's because after tinkering with a real acoustic for two decades he and his engineer decided that it was generally to much hassle to capture the sound on stage and feed it to the mixer. He uses the piano because he wants a Steinway action but it usually triggers external equipment to generate the sound.

To truly judge the merit of an instrument a real musician usually considers all the factors because we here in the real world accept that each instruments has constraints and was designed for a particular purpose and/or type of music.

Even if I had the means to do so I'd probably still never buy a Concert Grand of any brand because I'd have to pretty much design the whole house around this particular instrument and yet it still wouldn't sound as great as it does in a concert hall. That's because it isn't designed so that the player can maximize his or her enjoyment of the music he or she plays, it's designed to be heard by every member of the audience in a giant concert hall. So I'd probably go for one of the smaller ones (Studio or similar) which is smaller and therefore has a different sound (not just less loud).

If your band is still at the stage where each member has to carry and set up his own equipment you'll probably won't use an acoustic piano because you'd have to load, unload and carry it yourself to each venue, you'd have to invest hours at each venue to capture the sound right and to get a good mix and to maximize the sound you'd pretty much have to tune the instrument each evening. (That's why EJ had his own personal piano tuner on tour with him)

Then there's the whole topic of 'actions': People always talk like there is just one god given piano action that is perfect for every player and due to it's divinity is pretty much perfect.

My personal favourite is the fact that digital piano manufacturers have added a 'graded action' to their devices because it's considered to be more like the real thing while the designers of acoustic actions specifically try to prevent keys with different heft because it is seen as a flaw. Still you can get anything from ultra heavy to ultra light, from graded to non graded, from truly bad to excellent.

Even the best piano will have a very bad action after it has been subjected to the 'torture' of being used as a teaching instrument at a conservatory or music school for a few years and the topic of what acoustic is best is as controversially debated as political affiliations are.

So in essence claiming that a DP is always worse than a Concert Grand is ridiculous. For one because it is an apples to onions comparison, both instruments serve different purposes, secondly because when you compare a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen Golf and your main attribute for comparison is 'luxuriousness' then the Golf will obviously lose. If you are in the market for a 'practical' car though then it would also be a pointless comparison.

More importantly though: A combination of for example a Kawai VPC 1 and Ivory II will - for the price of $1500 + the cost of a PC - easily best nearly all entry level upright or grand pianos (starting at $6000 for a very cheap upright or probably closer to $12,000 for a cheap grand) both in feel of the action and probably sound (yes, you heard me right). An entry level acoustic isn't simply better by virtue of it being acoustic or costing more. The number of parts, the manual labor and the small number of instruments sold pretty much mean that even the piano-equivalent of an epiphone guitar will set you back a few grand. Just look at the acoustic instruments that are usually recommended over here an upright usually goes for $8,000 - not for a great one just for one that is decent enought to actually warrant buying it.

So if you want to buy a good acoustic grand then go ahead and do it you don't need to justify your decision by nitpicking and listing all the flaws of a digital, it's a frivolous purchase so simply own the decision. You should consider however that there is a reason why a huge chunk of contemporary music from all genres doesn't use a piano and that this changed in recent decades because keyboards and digital pianos became more common and it was suddenly that much more practical to actually play one.

The piano currently goes through a sort of renaissance. A lot of current stars and up and comers write songs for the piano, performers of classical music are getting more popular and there is s surge of people that want to learn the piano because they have heard great songs by people like Adele. That's all because it has never been easier and more affordable to own a piano and because digitals are 'good' enough so thatz you don't necessarily need a real acoustic.

I consider that to be A Good Thing (TM).


I know it's been two years, but this was such a great post I wanted to bookmark it for posterity.


Meh, I thought it was rubbish, personally. A lot of huff and puff about perfectly obvious compromises stage performers make when they play in bands. People who own acoustic pianos know why they have them and why they prefer them. This guy can't allow them that without his ever so gentle disdain about them "owning" their choices. I've got a DP and an AP. I know exactly why I have each of them.

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To me, the title of this thread and some (not all!!) of the posts in it, are proof positive that anybody can be "anybody" on the internet, and make any claims he or she is in the mood to make that day. A person could be a complete washout in real life, sitting in his or her parents' basement, posing as some really knowledgeable practitioner in the knowledge domain that the forum is about. Conversely there are many in that same forum who are the "real deal", yet their posts may often be indistinguishable from the posers. In a thread such as this, the difference can be fairly apparent, but all too often, the poser will not be as blatantly obvious.

We see that a lot in the guitar forums, where there are people who spout endlessly about all manner of music theory, making that subject seem far too complex for any mere mortal to even think of approaching. A lot of beginners will get turned away from ever thinking about learning what little diatonic theory is really applicable to the music they want to play. Those who spout, most likely have little to no experience on the bandstand, where reality sheds light on what is really important. However, it is the posers that sound most convincing.

In this forum, we fortunately see the poser making really outlandish claims, so that it is easy enough to write such people off and pay attention to the obviously knowledgeable folks here who are really quite helpful. Personally, I am grateful to people such as pv88, who actually posts recordings he has made of his playing to back up and demonstrate anything he says. If there ever was a filter, it is putting up such recordings. If I continue practicing at the rate that I currently am, I will likewise be facile enough of a player to do so too some day. Until then, I just have to stay honest and say that I am still learning, and that I too would be a poser to act otherwise. On the guitar forum, I do have the professional experience on the bandstand, but have pretty much given up going against the posers because they really can wear people down, since that is probably all they do.

It is unfortunate that this situation exists, because there are some really fine people who willingly give of their time to provide real information in these forums, and for the person seeking that help, it may be at least initially difficult to tell the difference between the poser and the "real deal".

Tony



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Isn't stomachcrampkitty the troll that was around here a few years back stirring up the litterbox and then changing it's name and then more of the same?


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@Tony,

Thanks for mentioning the recordings I had previously posted (in link below regarding the V-Piano presets)* and plenty of info on the V-Piano is always available for anyone that wishes to look it up via the "search" feature in Piano World.

Many folks here remain completely anonymous (perhaps Gyro comes to mind as no one even knows his/her gender) and others may decide to post their REAL full names which is ultimately your own choice.

For example, I have shared only my first name (usually in PM's) just so there is a reasonable amount of anonymity involved. I am always upfront with everyone I have made comments to in this forum and have retracted posts and other comments when they were deemed not acceptable and also made personal apologies when necessary.

Any other threads that go truly OT (off topic) have only managed to derail other well intended posts as the original poster is therefore not given any consideration for their original topic. Have seen many threads going OT only to realize it might soon be stopped by a moderator.

Also, the original poster of this thread appears to have fled the scene as he/she knew that their comments were not valid. It is one thing to post valid comments and another when attempting to stir up controversy.

After this post everyone should consider the original subject line:

[$6000 Roland V-Piano not any better than $1000 Casio PX-850]

This is simply not true as the difference is quite substantial.

* [Extra note]

Here's a good thread with plenty of info and recordings:

V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get?

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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Tobicus
Originally Posted by Nigeth
If I wanted to troll or provoke a 'healthy' and 'lively' discussion I'd argue that an acoustic piano is an dated and outmoded instrument that is rather impractical to use. It's heavy, very expensive, requires continual and expensive maintenance, is very susceptible to humidity and temperature, doesn't lend itself for integration into a modern band context (jazz, blues, rock or otherwise) because it cannot easily be amplified and connected to a PA or speakers and that it is generally a high maintenance instrument wink .

I'd also argue that an instrument that can cost upwards of $200,000 but is easily replacable by an electronic 'emulation' can't be that great to begin with wink .

While this would be trolling and could be considered immature and out of line it does raise a few interesting points though. It's easy to argue that the copy will never even begin to approach the original if I compare a Ford Model T to a Ferrari 458 or in case of this thread a Casio PX 850 to a Steinway Acoustic Grand.

It also neglects that - while being expertly crafted and having a certain pedigree - even those 'superinstruments' are by no means the embodiments of perfection. (I can hear the word 'sacrilege' being shouted at me right now).

So I'd first like to ask what purpose the instrument should serve, what music you'd like to play and what facilities you have - monetary or otherwise - to support it.

A Bösendorfer Acoustic Grand Piano is seven foot long, weighs nearly half a ton and costs as much as a whole house (or said Ferrari 458). For a quarter of a million dollars I pretty much expect the best of the best yet even though Marc Bellamy (the keyboarder of Muse) might own one he'll never use it on stage. Heck even Elton John doesn't really play a Steinway Grand on tour even though he has one on stage. That's because after tinkering with a real acoustic for two decades he and his engineer decided that it was generally to much hassle to capture the sound on stage and feed it to the mixer. He uses the piano because he wants a Steinway action but it usually triggers external equipment to generate the sound.

To truly judge the merit of an instrument a real musician usually considers all the factors because we here in the real world accept that each instruments has constraints and was designed for a particular purpose and/or type of music.

Even if I had the means to do so I'd probably still never buy a Concert Grand of any brand because I'd have to pretty much design the whole house around this particular instrument and yet it still wouldn't sound as great as it does in a concert hall. That's because it isn't designed so that the player can maximize his or her enjoyment of the music he or she plays, it's designed to be heard by every member of the audience in a giant concert hall. So I'd probably go for one of the smaller ones (Studio or similar) which is smaller and therefore has a different sound (not just less loud).

If your band is still at the stage where each member has to carry and set up his own equipment you'll probably won't use an acoustic piano because you'd have to load, unload and carry it yourself to each venue, you'd have to invest hours at each venue to capture the sound right and to get a good mix and to maximize the sound you'd pretty much have to tune the instrument each evening. (That's why EJ had his own personal piano tuner on tour with him)

Then there's the whole topic of 'actions': People always talk like there is just one god given piano action that is perfect for every player and due to it's divinity is pretty much perfect.

My personal favourite is the fact that digital piano manufacturers have added a 'graded action' to their devices because it's considered to be more like the real thing while the designers of acoustic actions specifically try to prevent keys with different heft because it is seen as a flaw. Still you can get anything from ultra heavy to ultra light, from graded to non graded, from truly bad to excellent.

Even the best piano will have a very bad action after it has been subjected to the 'torture' of being used as a teaching instrument at a conservatory or music school for a few years and the topic of what acoustic is best is as controversially debated as political affiliations are.

So in essence claiming that a DP is always worse than a Concert Grand is ridiculous. For one because it is an apples to onions comparison, both instruments serve different purposes, secondly because when you compare a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen Golf and your main attribute for comparison is 'luxuriousness' then the Golf will obviously lose. If you are in the market for a 'practical' car though then it would also be a pointless comparison.

More importantly though: A combination of for example a Kawai VPC 1 and Ivory II will - for the price of $1500 + the cost of a PC - easily best nearly all entry level upright or grand pianos (starting at $6000 for a very cheap upright or probably closer to $12,000 for a cheap grand) both in feel of the action and probably sound (yes, you heard me right). An entry level acoustic isn't simply better by virtue of it being acoustic or costing more. The number of parts, the manual labor and the small number of instruments sold pretty much mean that even the piano-equivalent of an epiphone guitar will set you back a few grand. Just look at the acoustic instruments that are usually recommended over here an upright usually goes for $8,000 - not for a great one just for one that is decent enought to actually warrant buying it.

So if you want to buy a good acoustic grand then go ahead and do it you don't need to justify your decision by nitpicking and listing all the flaws of a digital, it's a frivolous purchase so simply own the decision. You should consider however that there is a reason why a huge chunk of contemporary music from all genres doesn't use a piano and that this changed in recent decades because keyboards and digital pianos became more common and it was suddenly that much more practical to actually play one.

The piano currently goes through a sort of renaissance. A lot of current stars and up and comers write songs for the piano, performers of classical music are getting more popular and there is s surge of people that want to learn the piano because they have heard great songs by people like Adele. That's all because it has never been easier and more affordable to own a piano and because digitals are 'good' enough so thatz you don't necessarily need a real acoustic.

I consider that to be A Good Thing (TM).


I know it's been two years, but this was such a great post I wanted to bookmark it for posterity.


Meh, I thought it was rubbish, personally. A lot of huff and puff about perfectly obvious compromises stage performers make when they play in bands. People who own acoustic pianos know why they have them and why they prefer them. This guy can't allow them that without his ever so gentle disdain about them "owning" their choices. I've got a DP and an AP. I know exactly why I have each of them.


I see where you're coming from...but different strokes, I guess.

We also have access to both DPs and APs, and battled for quite a while in debating between buying one or the other for our home. We went with the DP for some of the reasons he noted. Part of what shapes our perspective is that we've been through so many hobbies (photography, other instruments, etc) that we've seen the "one person's junk is another person's treasure" phenomenon over and over again.

I noticed a bit of a vibe here from reading a lot of threads before joining that DPs are always a compromise to APs (even though the opposite could easily be argued), and that the holy grail of pianos is the acoustic grand. But of course, not everyone sees it that way. You couldn't pay me to keep a grand piano at home; way too big, far too loud, and no moving flexibility. On the other hand, that could be someone else's dream piano. Which of us is right regarding which piano is better?

In the end, I think the best piano is the one you play the most. Kind of like the mantra about the best camera being the one you take with you.


"We pianists can learn a lot by emulating guitarists....think of a "typical" guitarist. Someone teaches them 3 or 4 chords and they immediately start strumming away and playing dozens of songs. Amazing, right? It's that easy, too, on piano...and you'll be having a lot of fun without much effort!"
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