I could REALLY use some advice here. But first, let me briefly tell you about the beginning of my first piano shopping experience that took place at the Steinway Hall in Dallas.

I go there on somewhat of a limited budget, and before you say it, I know that that is probably the last place to go on a limited budget. But I was recommended by my piano professor to someone at the dealer and my professor said that he could give me a good deal. Well, I didn't really ever see a deal that was unusually good. But anyways, what I first played on were new M and L models, I believe they were 5'6", but don't qoute me on that. I hated them. And when I found out that they were running about 40k I hated them even more. They were some of the most muddled pianos I have ever heard. But I did give them the benefit of the doubt and told myself that they just needed to be broken in. Moving on.

I wanted something used that was a little cheaper. I also wanted a different sound than what I was hearing on the new pianos. So we go up to the used piano level upstairs. The only one that I really liked, was a 1972, I think it was either an M or an O, about 5'6" or so. It had a much more "earthy" sound to it, much less mechanical. It booked at 27k. After going over some financing numbers just to get a feel for what something like that would run, I felt like it was still a little too much out of my league at the moment. Moving on.

I ask him about something a little cheaper, and I mention the uprights. He tells me of a really nice used upright that was a 2001 model that they just got in. It was a K52 and they wanted $16k for it. I thought this would be a possibility. After playing on it, I didn't think that I would like the extra light action that it had and decided that I needed a grand to get the touch that I was looking for. Moving on.

I asked him one last time if he had anything else that was either used or priced lower that was a grand. He mentioned the Boston pianos. Ahh...the same piano that I work on with my professor at the university. He says that they're priced at about half of what the Steinways are going for. Ahh...I'm starting to get ideas. The first one he shows me that's "a heck of a deal" is a 7'1"! Boston that is $19k. Boy that seemed really low for how much piano you get. But that was too big. So he takes me over to the 5'10"'s and I play on one. Wow! This blew away the new steinways that I first tried. I really liked the way this piano played. He tells me that the 5'10"'s are priced at what the 5'4"'s are, that being about $19k. So trying to wrap up my story, I'm considering purchasing the new Boston, and then when I can afford higher payments, trading it in on a Steinway that I like, such as the 1972 one. He says that you can apply 100% of what you pay on the Boston towards a superior piano.

Now, I know what you're thinking. And I do plan on trying several other pianos, such as Young Chang, Yamaha, Kawai, Estonia if I can find one and whatever else I run into along the way. BUT, I figure that to get the Steinway that I so far want, the easiest way would be to get the Boston which I really like for now, and then if I want, trade it in later.

I haven't read anything on the Boston, so I don't know if any of you like it. But so far I've been pleased with it. PLEASE give me some feedback on them and if my idea sounds like an ok one to do. Thanks!

The Boston is well made for a Japanese piano. But like other Japanese pianos, it is not made with the quality of hardwoods to make it last as long as hand-made American and European brands. Steinway dealers often don't mention that it is made in Japan and want customers to assume that it is made by Steinway. I have even heard of them telling customers that the Boston is the same as a Steinway but with a cheaper finish.

Putting your personal preferences for the way the piano sounds and plays aside (which, of course are extremely important), if you are willing to spend in the upper teens low twenties for a grand piano, play everything that you can in that price range. Buy the Piano Book (fourth edition), or take it out of the library and read up on what is out there. Play on other pianos that are out of your price range (Mason & Hamlin, Bechstein, Bosendorfer etc) to see if there are other pianos you may prefer to trade to down the road, should that be an option.

Definitely play Estonias and other better valued pianos. You can get them in the same price range as a Boston and they use better materials in the rim and pinblock and other key parts, which should give them much a much longer life. If you do like a piano like this, you don't have to trade up in the future, it's a keeper.

Lastly, 27K for a 1972 (teflon era Steinway M (5'7) or L (5'10 1/2)) is a pretty high price IMHO.

Don't settle for a temporary piano for the money that you are willing to spend if you can avoid it. For that kind of money you should be able to find something that you can be happy with for a very long time. But no matter what you get, you can trade it in or sell it privately and do better than paying that kind of price for a 1972 teflon Steinway. Keep us posted and good luck.

P.S. Steinway O's were only made from 1900-1923. Then they became the L.

Well as possibly the only person on this forum who actually owns a Boston, I thought I'd pipe in here

I don't know why I fell in love with it, but I did. I played everything I could find and had actually given up on finding an acoustic piano and was getting ready to buy a digital - and then I played the Boston and I loved it. When I found out it was in my price range, I loved it even more! The other pianos that were in the running for me were Charles Walter, Schimmel and Young Chang. I liked the Boston more than anything else though and it was even cheaper than everything on my short list except the Young Chang! I did play one of the new 52" Steinway's though and really liked it - but at 16,000 it was out of the range of what I was willing to spend on a vertical.

I think there must be something very specific about a Boston that makes you either love it or hate it - because I've never heard anybody say that they "sorta" like it. (Before the forum police accuse me of making false statements, let me just say that's just a theory of mine based on what I've seen/heard from others who have tried the Boston)

And although the 100% trade-in for a Steinway is kinda nice, it didn't factor into my decision as if I ever get a new piano it's going to be a grand - and I could never force myself to pay that kind of money for a piano. Well unless I win the lottery....

I say if you love it, buy it!

Buy a piano based on how much you like the piano you are buying and how satisfactory the price is now. Don't buy it as a future bargaining chip. In particular do not buy a piano because of a dealer's "100% trade up" policy. The only thing that does for you is tie you to that particular dealer and put you at his tender mercies with respect to the price of the new piano you are planning to buy from him. I would also submit that these full price trade-up policies are simply sales gimmicks as no dealer can make money buying back pianos that he sold several years ago at the full purchase price. The only way that can work is if the losses that he takes on buy-backs are added to the prices of the new pianos the trade-up customers are buying or are added to the dealer's overhead and averaged into the prices of all his new pianos. I also expect that Steve Cohen will disagree with me on this and Larry will agree with me. I would expect that if you go back to the dealer to do one of these trade-ups you will find your negotiating position on the price of the new piano to be limited - after all you are in a position of weakness - and you may find the best price you can get on the new piano to be the proverbial screw in a certain part of the anatomy.

A price of $27K for an original condition 30 year old Steinway M is absolutely ridiculous. The only one who can get away with that kind of price for that piano is the Steinway dealer because he gets the customers who think that the only place to buy a Steinway is the Steinway dealer and don't do their homework before writing the check. If you want a used Steinway the absolute worst place to go shopping for one is the Steinway dealer unless you like getting taken to the cleaners. You can find very nicely rebuilt and refinished Steinways with everything new for that money from independent rebuilders.

The reason that the new Steinways sounded muddled to you is that a new Steinway comes from the factory with very soft hammers that give a mushy sound. In order to develop the sound of the piano the hammers must be lacquered to harden them then voiced. Steinway leaves that up to the dealers to do as part of their preparation of the piano. The dealers don't have any motivation to do it unless asked since most new Steinways are bought not by sensitive musicians but by people with plenty of money who are simply buying a fallboard decal with a piece of furniture attached.

Take your time and go check out a lot more pianos before writing the check. The deal on the Boston will still be there if you decide to go back a few months later.

Niles Duncan
Piano rebuilder, Pasadena, CA
www.pianosource.com

Hi jeffylube,

The sales man did tell one truth for sure, a 7 foot Boston for less than 20K is a deal in anybody's book! But how many of us have room for a 7 footer in the home?

I'm sure you know that Bostons are built for Steinway by Kawai, and share a lot of the same features. I'd certainly try a RX-2(5'10"), just to compare sound. I know the Kawai will be less expensive.

Have you tried the 5'8" Petrof, yet? Usually runs between 16-17K, and many prefer the tone. Another piano already mentioned is the Estonia. A 5'6" would be in the same price neighborhood as the Petrof.

Of course, the used market is out there. A little footwork, and hard shopping might pay off in a good deal. Perhaps a decent Baldwin, or a pre-teflon Steinway, or other good piano.

And lastly, some folks on the forum have mentioned there are some pretty decent rebuilders in the Dallas area. Wonder what a nice rebuilt Steinway, M&H, or Baldwin would go for, in your market?

Niles - although I completely agree with you on the trade up policies, the 100% Boston/Steinway thing is actually offered by Steinway rather than the dealer. Therefore you could trade it in through any dealer that carries new Steinways. Of course usually there is only one new Steinway dealer in most areas, but hey - if you moved, the offer would still be good.

Thank you for your replies. Although I knew that Boston wasn't made by Steinway, I didn't know it was a Japanese piano or that it was built by Kawai. I had a teacher that really liked the Kawai's and recommended me to try them, so maybe that or the Boston will appeal to me the most.

Momalboe, I felt the same way when I played the Boston. It just felt very natural to play. It was very easy to bring out the right hand voicing over the left hand bass. Did you purchase a vertical or a grand?

For anyone that knows, what are the "good" years of a Steinway? I liked the 1972 and didn't like the new ones, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with them yet. Thanks and please keep the replies coming! :p

Hi Jeff.

Most technicians feel that the best Steinways were made in the pre-CBS era, which began in the early 1960s. The are also those who feel that Steinway's quality control actually began to decline much earlier, immediately following World War II. (Steinway, like Baldwin and a number of other American piano makers, virtually ceased producing pianos during the war. I believe they made wings for gliders.) There are also those who feel the talk about the "decline" in American Steinways is pure bunk--but most of them work for Steinway or their dealers.

If you are looking at a Steinway from 1972, caution is warranted. This was not a good time for the company. It would be in your best interest to have an INDEPENDENT piano technician
look at that piano. What to I mean by independent? Simply, one who is not affiliated with that dealership. It is fairly common in this industry for technicians (and some teachers) to have their bread buttered on both sides by taking commissions from dealerships when they either refer a student or recommend a specific piano. This issue has been discussed on this forum before (Larry has a great story about this one involving a tuner and a tape recorder).

Finally, I would urge you to look at other pianos, and when playing them, ignore the name on the fallboard, and ignore the hype manufacturers and dealers sometimes spout. Let your fingers and ears, not hype, be the judge.

Niles is right about the "full-trade" value. While we try to give "returning" customers the best deals we can, we stll have the same overhead.

I find the whole Boston deal a joke!
The piano has nothing to do with a Steinway I've seen some dealers trying to make it seem like it,
The 100% trade in value means nothing,
I think if you want to be conservative in how much you invest into the piano purchase, will be prudent to say buy a Pramberger or something else, I think you are looking in the wrong place, go to Steinway hall to buy a Steinway and not a want to be Steinway.

Rickmaninof, I'm assuming you've tried the Boston piano and totally hate it?

No, I don't hate the piano the piano is okay depending in how much you pay for...
What I don't like is that Steinway uses their name on cheap marketing instead of being what they are fine piano makers. That is the story now days of many companies who make fine products.

While I'm not sure I agree with Rick'f about it being a bad thing that Steinway markets mid-range pianos, I do agree that Steinway dealers present the Boston as being more than what it is. There is nothing wrong with it. Kawai makes fine pianos for what they are, and I much prefer the sound of a Kawai to a Yamaha. But the pianos are expensive for what you are getting, there is nothing magic about the scale design no matter how many times the dealer screams "Steinway!" and you can probably get a similar quality instrument for a much lower price. If the dealer is willing to deal, a Boston can be a good choice, but shop around a lot first.

Yes, I agree that consumers could interpret the phrase "Designed by Steinway" inaccurately. But if that's what Steinway really does with the Boston piano, then that's what they should say. I don't think they're unnecessarily trying to fool the public into purchasing it because they think it's like a Steinway. It's really up to the consumer to get as much info on their own about it before they go buy, which is what I'm trying to do now.

Steinway was purchased by CBS in 1972. The deal was agreed to in January of that year, and finalized in March. (source: Steinway & Sons, by Richard Lieberman.)

jeffylube,
If you want to believe everthing about the Boston and you like the piano... Why do you bother to ask about it, buy it and be happy.

Richmaninof, I never said I wanted to believe everything about the Boston. I do like it and it is a consideration. But I'm here just to see what everyone else thinks of it and to get some different view points on the piano.

Jeffylube,
I also liked the Boston. I ended up purchasing a Kawai RX-2 because it was comparable to the Boston but for much less money. Neither are considered "top-drawer" like Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, et al, but they are still very good pianos. In the price range we are talking about, the choices are pretty much a new "2nd-tier" piano or a used "1st-tier" - if you have the time and energy for the hunt. I didn't, and opted for the very nice new Kawai.

Good luck! If you decide you love the Boston and are happy with the price, I don't think you'll have any regrets.

trix

According to "The Steinway Saga" by D.W. Fostle (1994)

"Not sharing proportionally in the growth of the grand piano market and beset by much cheaper grands from Japan and Korea -- the "piano-shaped objects" to which Bruce Stevens (the then President of Steinway Musical Products) referred -- the strategy was to enter what would once have been called the "commercial" piano business."... a new piano to be made by Kawai and called "Boston"..."When queried on the identity of the designers, Bruce Stevens stated that
they were the engineers in Astoria; that none of these engineers had ever designed a piano before was candidly admitted. They had, however, taken a one-day scale design seminar from an outside consultant and were adept in the use of computers."

Hmm...

In other words, they had extensive keyboard experience.

I understand what you are saying Rick, but in all honesty I had never heard of Boston and had no idea it had anything to do with the steinway company before I played it. I didn't even particularly like the way it look - it just happened to be right next to the salesman's desk as I was waiting for him to return with a brochure on their Roland digitals. After I played it and had fallen in love with the tone and touch, THEN I heard the sales pitch -but at that point it didn't matter. I would have bought it if it had been designed by Bubba of "Bubba's Bait and Piano Shop".

I didn't find the Boston over priced at all - it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I was offered a Kawai for - and I didn't particularly like the Kawai, although I didn't hate it.

Now admittedly, since I wasn't willing to spend a ton of money I didn't really look at some of the spendier brands. I did however try some that were several thousand less and several thousand more and I liked the Boston better than all of them. I'm not saying it is a better piano than the others I tried which were more expensive, but that I personally liked it better for whatever reason.

It's all just a matter of personal preference.

You have a Bubba's Bait and Piano Shop in your area as well? :p

Jeffylube: I bought a vertical, I believe it's around 47" with a black satin finish.

The only problem I've had with it is that I'm obsessed with it and all I can think about while I'm at work is how long it's going to be before I can get home and play it! I've actually been "working from home" a lot lately.... and let's just say I've spent at least as much time at my piano as I have at my computer on those days!

P.S. Don't tell my boss!

momalboe,
I guess if the piano suit your needs, you made the right decision, I just feel sorry for those who buy this piano based on the connection with Steinway and in top of that pay a little extra. But I feel good for dealer who gets the little extra.

I've heard this from more than one source, but please don't take it as gospel: the actual wholesale price between an equivalent sized Kawai and Boston is only a few hundred dollars at most, and may be as close as a hundred.

And that seems reasonable, since they are produced in the same factory, by the same workers. The problem has been that Steinway dealers, after enjoying pretty decent sales with the line, didn't have to discount as aggressively. I think this has changed in many parts of the country. One Steinway dealer told me he would sell _any_ Boston piano he had for 20% off of the Piano Book supplement I had in my hand, and that was before I tried negotiating price! Of course, local economy, as always, has a lot to do with how much any dealer will discount.

If it were me, I'd start playing lots of pianos(which you've started to do), and if I found myself being drawn back to the Boston, then you've made your choice.

I think if you're willing to pay $20k for a 6footer, you really owe it to yourself to play the field a bit -- and definitely look at some used instruments. I hate to say it but things being tough on a lot of people, pianos are one of those luxuries that some folks part. The only thing to be careful of is to make sure they weren't doing that bake the piano in the living room window trick. Sometimes, even if the piano is relatively new (i.e. less than 15 years) and has never been played, it may not be worth playing.

On the other hand I have seen decent instruments at some prices that amaze me. It's good that you've found an instrument you like and feel would make you happy -- see if there's any others. You'll sleep better.

Ken

I only paid a few hundred dollars more for the Boston than what I was being offered a Kawai of the same size - and the Kawai was a year old having been at some local university. Maybe I got an exceptional deal on my Boston - or maybe the Kawai dealer was asking too much. The Kawai actually had a slightly higher "marked price" (you know, that fictional price that dealers put on their pianos so you'll think they are giving you a huge deal ) on the piano than the Boston did.

So now I'm curious???? What does the average 47"ish new Kawai sell for versus the same size Boston? Anybody know?

Hi Jeff.

Most technicians feel that the best Steinways were made in the pre-CBS era, which began in the early 1960s. (snip)

Technically the pre-CBs era began in the 1850's. The CBS era began in 1972 and the post CBS era began in about 1985.

Many people feel that the best Steinways were made from the 1880's to the Depression.

Try some rebuilds and get a good tech to check them out for yo.