I could REALLY use some advice here. But first, let me briefly tell you about the beginning of my first piano shopping experience that took place at the Steinway Hall in Dallas.

I go there on somewhat of a limited budget, and before you say it, I know that that is probably the last place to go on a limited budget. But I was recommended by my piano professor to someone at the dealer and my professor said that he could give me a good deal. Well, I didn't really ever see a deal that was unusually good. But anyways, what I first played on were new M and L models, I believe they were 5'6", but don't qoute me on that. I hated them. And when I found out that they were running about 40k I hated them even more. They were some of the most muddled pianos I have ever heard. But I did give them the benefit of the doubt and told myself that they just needed to be broken in. Moving on.

I wanted something used that was a little cheaper. I also wanted a different sound than what I was hearing on the new pianos. So we go up to the used piano level upstairs. The only one that I really liked, was a 1972, I think it was either an M or an O, about 5'6" or so. It had a much more "earthy" sound to it, much less mechanical. It booked at 27k. After going over some financing numbers just to get a feel for what something like that would run, I felt like it was still a little too much out of my league at the moment. Moving on.

I ask him about something a little cheaper, and I mention the uprights. He tells me of a really nice used upright that was a 2001 model that they just got in. It was a K52 and they wanted $16k for it. I thought this would be a possibility. After playing on it, I didn't think that I would like the extra light action that it had and decided that I needed a grand to get the touch that I was looking for. Moving on.

I asked him one last time if he had anything else that was either used or priced lower that was a grand. He mentioned the Boston pianos. Ahh...the same piano that I work on with my professor at the university. He says that they're priced at about half of what the Steinways are going for. Ahh...I'm starting to get ideas. The first one he shows me that's "a heck of a deal" is a 7'1"! Boston that is $19k. Boy that seemed really low for how much piano you get. But that was too big. So he takes me over to the 5'10"'s and I play on one. Wow! This blew away the new steinways that I first tried. I really liked the way this piano played. He tells me that the 5'10"'s are priced at what the 5'4"'s are, that being about $19k. So trying to wrap up my story, I'm considering purchasing the new Boston, and then when I can afford higher payments, trading it in on a Steinway that I like, such as the 1972 one. He says that you can apply 100% of what you pay on the Boston towards a superior piano.

Now, I know what you're thinking. And I do plan on trying several other pianos, such as Young Chang, Yamaha, Kawai, Estonia if I can find one and whatever else I run into along the way. BUT, I figure that to get the Steinway that I so far want, the easiest way would be to get the Boston which I really like for now, and then if I want, trade it in later.

I haven't read anything on the Boston, so I don't know if any of you like it. But so far I've been pleased with it. PLEASE give me some feedback on them and if my idea sounds like an ok one to do. Thanks!

The Boston is well made for a Japanese piano. But like other Japanese pianos, it is not made with the quality of hardwoods to make it last as long as hand-made American and European brands. Steinway dealers often don't mention that it is made in Japan and want customers to assume that it is made by Steinway. I have even heard of them telling customers that the Boston is the same as a Steinway but with a cheaper finish.

Putting your personal preferences for the way the piano sounds and plays aside (which, of course are extremely important), if you are willing to spend in the upper teens low twenties for a grand piano, play everything that you can in that price range. Buy the Piano Book (fourth edition), or take it out of the library and read up on what is out there. Play on other pianos that are out of your price range (Mason & Hamlin, Bechstein, Bosendorfer etc) to see if there are other pianos you may prefer to trade to down the road, should that be an option.

Definitely play Estonias and other better valued pianos. You can get them in the same price range as a Boston and they use better materials in the rim and pinblock and other key parts, which should give them much a much longer life. If you do like a piano like this, you don't have to trade up in the future, it's a keeper.

Lastly, 27K for a 1972 (teflon era Steinway M (5'7) or L (5'10 1/2)) is a pretty high price IMHO.

Don't settle for a temporary piano for the money that you are willing to spend if you can avoid it. For that kind of money you should be able to find something that you can be happy with for a very long time. But no matter what you get, you can trade it in or sell it privately and do better than paying that kind of price for a 1972 teflon Steinway. Keep us posted and good luck.

P.S. Steinway O's were only made from 1900-1923. Then they became the L.

Well as possibly the only person on this forum who actually owns a Boston, I thought I'd pipe in here

I don't know why I fell in love with it, but I did. I played everything I could find and had actually given up on finding an acoustic piano and was getting ready to buy a digital - and then I played the Boston and I loved it. When I found out it was in my price range, I loved it even more! The other pianos that were in the running for me were Charles Walter, Schimmel and Young Chang. I liked the Boston more than anything else though and it was even cheaper than everything on my short list except the Young Chang! I did play one of the new 52" Steinway's though and really liked it - but at 16,000 it was out of the range of what I was willing to spend on a vertical.

I think there must be something very specific about a Boston that makes you either love it or hate it - because I've never heard anybody say that they "sorta" like it. (Before the forum police accuse me of making false statements, let me just say that's just a theory of mine based on what I've seen/heard from others who have tried the Boston)

And although the 100% trade-in for a Steinway is kinda nice, it didn't factor into my decision as if I ever get a new piano it's going to be a grand - and I could never force myself to pay that kind of money for a piano. Well unless I win the lottery....

I say if you love it, buy it!

Buy a piano based on how much you like the piano you are buying and how satisfactory the price is now. Don't buy it as a future bargaining chip. In particular do not buy a piano because of a dealer's "100% trade up" policy. The only thing that does for you is tie you to that particular dealer and put you at his tender mercies with respect to the price of the new piano you are planning to buy from him. I would also submit that these full price trade-up policies are simply sales gimmicks as no dealer can make money buying back pianos that he sold several years ago at the full purchase price. The only way that can work is if the losses that he takes on buy-backs are added to the prices of the new pianos the trade-up customers are buying or are added to the dealer's overhead and averaged into the prices of all his new pianos. I also expect that Steve Cohen will disagree with me on this and Larry will agree with me. I would expect that if you go back to the dealer to do one of these trade-ups you will find your negotiating position on the price of the new piano to be limited - after all you are in a position of weakness - and you may find the best price you can get on the new piano to be the proverbial screw in a certain part of the anatomy.

A price of $27K for an original condition 30 year old Steinway M is absolutely ridiculous. The only one who can get away with that kind of price for that piano is the Steinway dealer because he gets the customers who think that the only place to buy a Steinway is the Steinway dealer and don't do their homework before writing the check. If you want a used Steinway the absolute worst place to go shopping for one is the Steinway dealer unless you like getting taken to the cleaners. You can find very nicely rebuilt and refinished Steinways with everything new for that money from independent rebuilders.

The reason that the new Steinways sounded muddled to you is that a new Steinway comes from the factory with very soft hammers that give a mushy sound. In order to develop the sound of the piano the hammers must be lacquered to harden them then voiced. Steinway leaves that up to the dealers to do as part of their preparation of the piano. The dealers don't have any motivation to do it unless asked since most new Steinways are bought not by sensitive musicians but by people with plenty of money who are simply buying a fallboard decal with a piece of furniture attached.

Take your time and go check out a lot more pianos before writing the check. The deal on the Boston will still be there if you decide to go back a few months later.

Niles Duncan
Piano rebuilder, Pasadena, CA
www.pianosource.com

Hi jeffylube,

The sales man did tell one truth for sure, a 7 foot Boston for less than 20K is a deal in anybody's book! But how many of us have room for a 7 footer in the home?

I'm sure you know that Bostons are built for Steinway by Kawai, and share a lot of the same features. I'd certainly try a RX-2(5'10"), just to compare sound. I know the Kawai will be less expensive.

Have you tried the 5'8" Petrof, yet? Usually runs between 16-17K, and many prefer the tone. Another piano already mentioned is the Estonia. A 5'6" would be in the same price neighborhood as the Petrof.

Of course, the used market is out there. A little footwork, and hard shopping might pay off in a good deal. Perhaps a decent Baldwin, or a pre-teflon Steinway, or other good piano.

And lastly, some folks on the forum have mentioned there are some pretty decent rebuilders in the Dallas area. Wonder what a nice rebuilt Steinway, M&H, or Baldwin would go for, in your market?

Niles - although I completely agree with you on the trade up policies, the 100% Boston/Steinway thing is actually offered by Steinway rather than the dealer. Therefore you could trade it in through any dealer that carries new Steinways. Of course usually there is only one new Steinway dealer in most areas, but hey - if you moved, the offer would still be good.

Thank you for your replies. Although I knew that Boston wasn't made by Steinway, I didn't know it was a Japanese piano or that it was built by Kawai. I had a teacher that really liked the Kawai's and recommended me to try them, so maybe that or the Boston will appeal to me the most.

Momalboe, I felt the same way when I played the Boston. It just felt very natural to play. It was very easy to bring out the right hand voicing over the left hand bass. Did you purchase a vertical or a grand?

For anyone that knows, what are the "good" years of a Steinway? I liked the 1972 and didn't like the new ones, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with them yet. Thanks and please keep the replies coming! :p

Hi Jeff.

Most technicians feel that the best Steinways were made in the pre-CBS era, which began in the early 1960s. The are also those who feel that Steinway's quality control actually began to decline much earlier, immediately following World War II. (Steinway, like Baldwin and a number of other American piano makers, virtually ceased producing pianos during the war. I believe they made wings for gliders.) There are also those who feel the talk about the "decline" in American Steinways is pure bunk--but most of them work for Steinway or their dealers.

If you are looking at a Steinway from 1972, caution is warranted. This was not a good time for the company. It would be in your best interest to have an INDEPENDENT piano technician
look at that piano. What to I mean by independent? Simply, one who is not affiliated with that dealership. It is fairly common in this industry for technicians (and some teachers) to have their bread buttered on both sides by taking commissions from dealerships when they either refer a student or recommend a specific piano. This issue has been discussed on this forum before (Larry has a great story about this one involving a tuner and a tape recorder).

Finally, I would urge you to look at other pianos, and when playing them, ignore the name on the fallboard, and ignore the hype manufacturers and dealers sometimes spout. Let your fingers and ears, not hype, be the judge.

Niles is right about the "full-trade" value. While we try to give "returning" customers the best deals we can, we stll have the same overhead.

I find the whole Boston deal a joke!
The piano has nothing to do with a Steinway I've seen some dealers trying to make it seem like it,
The 100% trade in value means nothing,
I think if you want to be conservative in how much you invest into the piano purchase, will be prudent to say buy a Pramberger or something else, I think you are looking in the wrong place, go to Steinway hall to buy a Steinway and not a want to be Steinway.

Rickmaninof, I'm assuming you've tried the Boston piano and totally hate it?

No, I don't hate the piano the piano is okay depending in how much you pay for...
What I don't like is that Steinway uses their name on cheap marketing instead of being what they are fine piano makers. That is the story now days of many companies who make fine products.

While I'm not sure I agree with Rick'f about it being a bad thing that Steinway markets mid-range pianos, I do agree that Steinway dealers present the Boston as being more than what it is. There is nothing wrong with it. Kawai makes fine pianos for what they are, and I much prefer the sound of a Kawai to a Yamaha. But the pianos are expensive for what you are getting, there is nothing magic about the scale design no matter how many times the dealer screams "Steinway!" and you can probably get a similar quality instrument for a much lower price. If the dealer is willing to deal, a Boston can be a good choice, but shop around a lot first.

Yes, I agree that consumers could interpret the phrase "Designed by Steinway" inaccurately. But if that's what Steinway really does with the Boston piano, then that's what they should say. I don't think they're unnecessarily trying to fool the public into purchasing it because they think it's like a Steinway. It's really up to the consumer to get as much info on their own about it before they go buy, which is what I'm trying to do now.

Steinway was purchased by CBS in 1972. The deal was agreed to in January of that year, and finalized in March. (source: Steinway & Sons, by Richard Lieberman.)

jeffylube,
If you want to believe everthing about the Boston and you like the piano... Why do you bother to ask about it, buy it and be happy.

Richmaninof, I never said I wanted to believe everything about the Boston. I do like it and it is a consideration. But I'm here just to see what everyone else thinks of it and to get some different view points on the piano.

Jeffylube,
I also liked the Boston. I ended up purchasing a Kawai RX-2 because it was comparable to the Boston but for much less money. Neither are considered "top-drawer" like Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, et al, but they are still very good pianos. In the price range we are talking about, the choices are pretty much a new "2nd-tier" piano or a used "1st-tier" - if you have the time and energy for the hunt. I didn't, and opted for the very nice new Kawai.

Good luck! If you decide you love the Boston and are happy with the price, I don't think you'll have any regrets.

trix

According to "The Steinway Saga" by D.W. Fostle (1994)

"Not sharing proportionally in the growth of the grand piano market and beset by much cheaper grands from Japan and Korea -- the "piano-shaped objects" to which Bruce Stevens (the then President of Steinway Musical Products) referred -- the strategy was to enter what would once have been called the "commercial" piano business."... a new piano to be made by Kawai and called "Boston"..."When queried on the identity of the designers, Bruce Stevens stated that
they were the engineers in Astoria; that none of these engineers had ever designed a piano before was candidly admitted. They had, however, taken a one-day scale design seminar from an outside consultant and were adept in the use of computers."

Hmm...

In other words, they had extensive keyboard experience.

I understand what you are saying Rick, but in all honesty I had never heard of Boston and had no idea it had anything to do with the steinway company before I played it. I didn't even particularly like the way it look - it just happened to be right next to the salesman's desk as I was waiting for him to return with a brochure on their Roland digitals. After I played it and had fallen in love with the tone and touch, THEN I heard the sales pitch -but at that point it didn't matter. I would have bought it if it had been designed by Bubba of "Bubba's Bait and Piano Shop".

I didn't find the Boston over priced at all - it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I was offered a Kawai for - and I didn't particularly like the Kawai, although I didn't hate it.

Now admittedly, since I wasn't willing to spend a ton of money I didn't really look at some of the spendier brands. I did however try some that were several thousand less and several thousand more and I liked the Boston better than all of them. I'm not saying it is a better piano than the others I tried which were more expensive, but that I personally liked it better for whatever reason.

It's all just a matter of personal preference.

You have a Bubba's Bait and Piano Shop in your area as well? :p

Jeffylube: I bought a vertical, I believe it's around 47" with a black satin finish.

The only problem I've had with it is that I'm obsessed with it and all I can think about while I'm at work is how long it's going to be before I can get home and play it! I've actually been "working from home" a lot lately.... and let's just say I've spent at least as much time at my piano as I have at my computer on those days!

P.S. Don't tell my boss!

momalboe,
I guess if the piano suit your needs, you made the right decision, I just feel sorry for those who buy this piano based on the connection with Steinway and in top of that pay a little extra. But I feel good for dealer who gets the little extra.

I've heard this from more than one source, but please don't take it as gospel: the actual wholesale price between an equivalent sized Kawai and Boston is only a few hundred dollars at most, and may be as close as a hundred.

And that seems reasonable, since they are produced in the same factory, by the same workers. The problem has been that Steinway dealers, after enjoying pretty decent sales with the line, didn't have to discount as aggressively. I think this has changed in many parts of the country. One Steinway dealer told me he would sell _any_ Boston piano he had for 20% off of the Piano Book supplement I had in my hand, and that was before I tried negotiating price! Of course, local economy, as always, has a lot to do with how much any dealer will discount.

If it were me, I'd start playing lots of pianos(which you've started to do), and if I found myself being drawn back to the Boston, then you've made your choice.

I think if you're willing to pay $20k for a 6footer, you really owe it to yourself to play the field a bit -- and definitely look at some used instruments. I hate to say it but things being tough on a lot of people, pianos are one of those luxuries that some folks part. The only thing to be careful of is to make sure they weren't doing that bake the piano in the living room window trick. Sometimes, even if the piano is relatively new (i.e. less than 15 years) and has never been played, it may not be worth playing.

On the other hand I have seen decent instruments at some prices that amaze me. It's good that you've found an instrument you like and feel would make you happy -- see if there's any others. You'll sleep better.

Ken

I only paid a few hundred dollars more for the Boston than what I was being offered a Kawai of the same size - and the Kawai was a year old having been at some local university. Maybe I got an exceptional deal on my Boston - or maybe the Kawai dealer was asking too much. The Kawai actually had a slightly higher "marked price" (you know, that fictional price that dealers put on their pianos so you'll think they are giving you a huge deal ) on the piano than the Boston did.

So now I'm curious???? What does the average 47"ish new Kawai sell for versus the same size Boston? Anybody know?

Hi Jeff.

Most technicians feel that the best Steinways were made in the pre-CBS era, which began in the early 1960s. (snip)

Technically the pre-CBs era began in the 1850's. The CBS era began in 1972 and the post CBS era began in about 1985.

Many people feel that the best Steinways were made from the 1880's to the Depression.

Try some rebuilds and get a good tech to check them out for yo.

Dear Jeffylube,

Living in the Dallas area I've been to Steinway hall many times. They do nothing to their new pianos which makes it very difficult to demo. I tried three new Steinways a few months back. On two of them the regulation was so bad that several keys were doublestriking the strings.

I will tell you this. The local word is that they are more than willing to deal. Just play your cards right and don't jump at anything.

If you do decide that you would like to consider Kawai, I have a good friend that is the tech at the local dealer and would help get you a good price, better than you could on your own I am told, as I've sent several people there.

Good luck.

And don't you just know that if I ever do sell my beloved Boston, the newspaper ad will say "Boston Piano by Steinway"

UPDATE: Schimmel and My Second Piano Shopping Experience[/b]

So I ventured to the Dallas Piano Warehouse in Bedford today. On my list to try was a couple of Pramberger's, a couple of Young Changs, a C3 Yamaha and they also had a couple of Schimmel's and a 9'2"! Imperial Bosondorfer. I've been really curious about the Pramberger's so those were the first ones I tried. First up was a JP-185 for I believe around $20k or so. I liked the base and the touch ok, but I didn't like the tone. It had a hard tone to it and was perfect for playing Jazz. I don't play Jazz. Moving on.

I tried other Pramberger's and the Young Changs and my overall impression was they were nice pianos and a nice consideration if you're looking for something between $8-18K. I'm looking towards something that I would be happy with if it ended up being my only piano. Moving on.

Yamaha C3 at about $15K I think. :rolleyes: This was jacked. Boy I didn't like it. It wasn't necessarily a bad piano, but it was everything I didn't want. Moving on.

Schimmel. Ahh...I thought of everyone back at the pianoworld (plug) forums. I had never heard of a Schimmel until I read about them hear. I wrote down that it was a P182 6', but when I looked for that exact model on their website I didn't see it. Maybe someone could help on this. It was the red wood, and the soundboard was one of the most gorgeous non-human creations I've seen. The pricing went like this: Retail of $45K down to a sale price of $35K down to a "need to get rid of it" price of $30K. I don't know if this is good or not. Some help on this would be appreciated. The salesman Brad, who was really cool and didn't put any pressure on me, said that the Schimmel is one of the top 5 pianos. I'm not sure about this either. How did it play? I loved it. Well the first time I played it I liked it and then the second time I loved it. The treble sound was out of this world. Moving on.

The Bosendorfer Imperial. You know, I was so excited to see this so I could try it out and see what a "top" piano feels and sounds like. It was nice. Yes nice, and I was relieved that I didn't like it any more than that. Brad said he didn't think they were anything special for the money and I second that. Yes it had a beautiful sound, but it seemed to me to lack personality, seemed fairly bland. And at the price of it, I was gleeful that I didn't fall in love with it.

So that was about all they had that interested me. In summary, I think I'll try a couple more Pramberger's before I give up on them, I may give Yamaha another chance (but don't have to), and am now really interested in Schimmel. So on my list I have Boston and Schimmel. I still would like to try Estonia, Kawai and a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment.

Any feedback?

Schimmel is a great piano. Our store carried them for many years until we took on Estonia. We found that our potential Schimmel customers like the Estonias every bit as much for about 10K less. So I will still urge you to try an Estonia before you decide anything. There are a lot of similarities in the tone, action, and construction.

If you prefer the Schimmel and you can afford the difference it is an excellent choice, although I wouldn't call it one of the top 5 pianos as the salesman mentioned. I would maybe be able to squeak it into the top 10.

My top 5 would be (in alphabetical order, sorry!)

Bluthner
Bosendorfer
Fazioli
Grotrian
Kimball Whitney spinet (just kidding) :p
Mason & Hamlin

I have owned a 6' Schimmel 182T (polished black ebony, nothing fancy) for just over a year now. I had it regulated recently because the action deteriorated progressively over the year. However, this could be because my tropical environment of high temperatures and humidity didn't agree with it. It plays fine now.

Having played Yamahas quite a bit and a 6' Shigeru Kawai just a couple of days ago, I would rate my Schimmel as superior to both in touch and sound. However, in comparison to my piano teacher's Grotrian and a friend's IBach, the Schimmel is *slightly* wanting, but hey, the other two pianos are almost twice as expensive.

Bottom line is... my Schimmel is a good piano; I would probably have been quite happy with it if I hadn't tried more expensive brands. It was what we could afford at that time (US$20K) and I think it was a good enough decision. Now... if I could only afford the Hamburg Steinway Model B... :p

Jeffy:

If you can find them locally - play a few Estonias and Petrofs. If you loved the Schimmels, you may very well love one of these two for nearly half the price. I have a Petrof IV, and it just gets better every day (especially after its 2nd tuning since new yesterday). Also keep your eyes out for 'Golden Age' (early 1900's) Mason & Hamlins - If I'd found the piano I played last week (1913 M&H AA) before I bought the Petrof, I'd have bought it - incredibly rich, complex sound with exceptional bass and power.

Best of luck on your hunt!

Tom

Jeffy

I own a schimmel GP 169 (about 5'6") and I love it. I also considered the schimmel GP 182 (6'), the bostons, kawais, petrofs and even a 5'8" august foerster, which would "objectively" be considered a superior piano to the schimmel by most people. Having done shopped for these pianos about 4-5 mos. ago in the NY area, my observations are:

1. $30K is way to much for the 6' schimmel, at least in NY. You should be able to get it for $24k, or even less.

2. The 6' Schimmel and the 5'6" were right next to each other and I played both, one right after the other. I thought the 5'6" has a sweeter tone, a deeper base and better sustain that the 6'. While it would normally be surprising for the smaller piano to sound better, according the the salesman and schimmel brochure the 5'6" is a totally redesigned piano, with a scale design similar to the schimmel 7 footer. The tail of the 5'6" was made wider in order to accomplish this. I thought the 5'6" blew away the kawai RX-10 that was also in the store (at least for classical music). The only beef I have with the 5'6" is that I can hear a fairly noticeable break between bass and treble, which may be compounded by the fact that the piano has a particularly strong, deep bass for a piano of this size.

3. I thought that the boston's were nice pianos, but just way overpriced (and not really that different than the kawai RXs, IMO). It seems that, at least in NY, prices on Steinways and Boston pianos are non-neogtiable. The 5'1' boston is around $14,500, and the next size up (5'5"?) is $18+. I happened to get a great deal on the schimmel, so it was a no brainer. Steinway salesman are incredibly arrogant. I just laughed when he told me that the Bostons are superior to schimmels, sauters and other comprable German pianos.

See if you can find a schimmel gp169 in Dallas. I understand that they may be hard to find.

Hello Jeffy,

I bought a mahogany Schimmel 182TJ ( Schimmel 182TJ WEBSITE ) for my daughters in March 2002. My daughter and her piano teacher played the Schimmel 182 and a Petrof III side by side and they like the tone and the touch of the Schimmel better. My piano tech came out to tune and check on the piano after two months in our house and gave a thumb up. He said all the piano needs is another tuning in 4-6 months. You can get a 182T in the low 20k. I don't know why they have the MSRP so high. Good luck finding your piano.

Schimmel is a great piano, no further comments.

Yes I would be interested in trying out some Kawai's. I can't find a dealer in Dallas so if you could let me know I'd appreciate it.

If you are interested in Schimmel, I have a friend who worked at the factory for a year that I could put you in touch with. Send me an email.

ryan

Since you're shopping in the Dallas area, I'd also recommend that you try McBrayer's Piano Gallery in Fort Worth (817-429-7777). They just do used pianos and restoration. I've done the Steinway Hall routine in Dallas also, and ended up buying a used Kawaii grand from an individual. But, McBrayer's was my favorite shop and I found them very open to my questions, concerns, etc...

Jeffy,

Just to let you know, Kawai's role in the Boston is only assembly related. Kawai has nothing to do with the Boston design. They just simply assemble it for Steinway. The scales of each of the manufacturers are totally different except the parts of the piano that have nothing to do with touch or tone, ie..legs, lyre, and lid are made the same, other than that they are 2 totaly different pianos and should stand on their own merrits. Steinway took 6 years to design the piano and they simply chose Kawai to assembly it for them. They could have chosen whoever they wanted to build it.
Regarding the trade-up policy, the Steinway promise of a full-trade up within ten years is for real. If you buy in to getting another piano with the eventual goal of becoming a Steinway owner, you will most likely not get the money on trade that you would if you were trading a Boston in on a Steinway. Steinway in New York will verify this. The Boston piano is a great value for the money. It represents Steinway in the mid-priced range. However, as some have already said, make sure the piano is prepped to your satisfaction. Steinway dealers rely heavily on referral business so it is always in their best interests to make you happy.
Good luck.

Yeah, and (as above), we know what "Steinway's role" was in the design, too. Six years to design a piano -- pretty good, since the people that actually designed it had never designed a piano before in their lives! (And as for the six years, well, read the D.W. Fostle account.)

By the way, all this shows that not much is needed to design a good piano anymore. The basic work was all done by 1930 (hey -- that's later than 1715 for violins!) Materials and execution are much more critical.

Make your own decisions.)

I sense a post from Larry headed this way soon.

But seriously, Phil...

1) Don't most piano dealers, whether of Steinway or other brands, offer a 10 year full trade policy against MSRP? And, given the fact that Steinway discourages dealers from discounting off MSRP, isn't the full trade "against a Steinway" just an issue of semantics.

2) Boston pianos are designed by Steinway, built by Kawai--with a few Steinway parts. You mention the "legs, lyre and lid are made the same, other that that they are 2 totaly [sic] different pianos and should stand on their own merits." Fair enough. But isn't the rim material on a Boston Lauan, otherwise known as Phillipine Mahogany, whereas the Steinway rims are Hard Rock Maple. It could just as easily be said that Steinway and Boston are two totally different pianos, which should be judged on their own merits.

3) Is it not also true that, in the 4th edition of Larry Fine's Piano Book, Boston is rated BELOW Kawai pianos in terms of quality.

4) Boston represents Steinway in the mid-price range? What the devil is that piece of marketing babble supposed to mean? Are you saying that a Boston is as good as a Steinway, for half the price--or less? Is Boston the best piano to be had in this price range?

5) Isn't the reality of the situation that Boston pianos are an attempt to cash in on Steinway's name, while grabbing a share of the mid-price range piano market? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade.

actually, that 10 year trade business doesn't apply to all Steinway dealers... I bought a new Steinway M and 5 years later went to buy a B. The dealer said, "nope." So, don't count on a trade-up - no matter what the promise -- unless in writing.

Ken

Re PhilSteinway's comments,

Just what we need, another spinmeister. The BS-ometer is pegged in the red again.

Hank's and Shantinik's comments are right on the money. From an engineering design perspective, pianos have been a solved problem for darned near a century. There haven't been many (if any) significant changes to the art in that period. There have been optimizations in production practices. This is not the same thing.

I wish that the spinmeisters would realize the long term harm they they do to their respective industries (not just pianos!) Wouldn't it be better in the long run for the products to stand on their real merits and not on marketing BS?

I, for one, prefer to taste the steak, not the sizzle.

as always...a tough audience.

It is in the assembly of a piano where the soul of that instrument is born. It you sent the designs to Bluthner, they would give birth to a Bluthner. If you sent the designs to Bechstein, they would give birth to a Bechstein. Steinway sent them to Kawai, and they give birth to Kawais.

As for the "designing" - Shantinik is right, Hank is right, and so is Chris. The Boston "designs" consist, from what I've heard, of taking a standard Kawai model and playing with it on a CAD program for a few hours, then figuring out how to explain the fact that Kawai wouldn't let them use their proprietary ABS parts in the action. Nothing wrong with that, but this is the wrong crowd to try to push the "it's a Steinway assembled in Japan" line passed.

Another rookie goes down "spinning" in flames!!!


Seriously though Phil,

If your a salesman, please note it in your profile or in your reply so people will know. Your opinion is always welcome here but sales spin gets called out for what it is and FAST!!!

Well, here goes the reply to the uproar response...

1. Boston is not a Steinway assembled in Japan.
2. It is a Steinway designed and owned piano that is assembled in Japan. It has many things similar to Steinway such as hammer design, low tension scale, tapered soundboard-from treble to bass. When I say it represents Steinway in the mid-price range of pianos that is what I mean. It is not a Steinway for half the price, they are two separate pianos, both designed from the same company...Steinway & Sons. Then there are things unique to Boston apart from current New York Steinway models..wide tail design taken from the old A model Steinway, vacum-cast plate just to name a few.
3. Steinway chose Kawai based on 2 very simple criteria.
A. Kawai had just completed construction on it's new plant in Japan, so they had the room to take on the line.
B. Kawai has very good quality control across the board in its' manufacturing process. I certainly agree that where a piano is built certainly has to do with its quality, Kawai does an excellent job for Steinway which is is exactly what Steinway demands. However the comment from Larry regarding Steinway trying design a piano with the CAD program has absolutely no merrit. Kawai did not come into the picture until after the piano had been designed and Steinway began to look for a maufacturer to build it. Obiviously certain collaborations had to come into play to accomodate both sides, but certainly not integral design modifications.
4. Trade up policy stated once again...Full 10yr trade up toward the purchase of a Steinway piano.
If you want to view that as a marketing ploy, I don't have a problem with that. The intent is to assure would-be buyers that their investment in a Boston is guaranteed not depreciate in value IF they choose at some time in the ten year alotted time frame to trade in on a Steinway, whether at full retail or otherwise sale discounted prices. A majority of Boston owners first express interest in owning a Steinway someday. Other companies may offer the same thing, I don't know, it simply is Steinway's promise if people want to buy something other than a Steinway and be guaranteed to get full value on trade to a Steinway.
5. I think Steinway's intent to build the Boston stemmed from them looking at what was available in the mid-price range piano market 15yrs ago and deciding customers could use another, and to their mind a better, choice instrument for the money. Some of the brands being mentioned in this discussion like Estonia's were not available in the U.S. and alot of other European brands did not have very good distribution to allow shoppers the choices that are available today as they were in 1985 when Steinway started work on the Boston design.
6. Also, being half the price of Steinway, the Boston is also seen as giving people an opprotunity to own a piano in the Steinway Family without the major dent to the wallet. The name association alone is one of the major successes for Boston. The Steinway piano is not for everyone...obivously not because they only make 1percent of the worlds' pianos. The Boston simply gives customers another choice for a quality piano designed by what I feel to be the best piano manufacturer in the world..Steinway & Sons.
7. I do sell Steinway and Boston pianos, I play both of them everyday and across the board I have had very good customer satisfaction to those people I have sold them to.
8. That is not to imply that every Steinway I get or every Boston I get is perfect everytime-that is impossible to expect. However, I am in the fact business when it comes to disclosure of products...Steinway has public, published, specifications for both Steinway and Boston pianos which I would encourage anyone to read..
9. Final point.. Techincians make the difference. I know we salespeople are viewed poorly by many techs, nonetheless, a good technician is an invaluable resource to would-be buyers of any pianos, and their advice, many times third party, should be pursued. No pianos, no matter how good anyone says they are, will stand up to the test of time without a good tech.

Thanks,

Phil

[/b]

Would you explain "low tension scale" to me? I've always wanted to hear that one.

If I'm not mistaken, Steinway has already long ago admitted to what I said.

Wow, that sounds like something right out of a Steinway sales manual.

What is the percentage difference between the lowest and highest tension scales in grand pianos?

The Steinway uses a Sand-cast plate. According to you, Boston uses a vaccuum-cast (V-pro) plate. Yamaha, Young-Chang, Kawai all use V-pro plates. Are V-pro plates better? If so, why doesn't Steinway use them? If not, why hasn't Steinway, which owns the Kelley plate company, insisted that sand-cast plates be used in Boston pianos?

You have taken great pains to describe how Boston and Kawai are different pianos. You have also mentioned that Kawai is well known for its quality control. Is this why BOTH Boston and Kawai grands have had troubles with inner/outer rim separation? (Is it not also true that Steinway's tech department told their dealers to put the pianos on their sides and fill in the separation with wood putty?) Very different indeed...

You mention that "name association alone is one of the major successes for Boston." Would it not be more true to state that name association is the PRIMARY reason for Boston's early success, and that without the Steinway name plastered on every fallboard, Boston pianos would never have made it out of the showroom?

What is the primary reason for the sharp drop in sales of Boston pianos over the last few years, anyway? Is it the current availability of obviously superior pianos in the same price range? Or are people merely becoming wise to the hype?

Larry,

Sorry, I did not state my Kawai-CAD point correctly.
I meant to say that Steinway did not design the Boston around the Kawai on a CAD program.. the piano was designed on a CAD program long before Kawai came into the picture. I mistakenly took from your comment that Steinway, by the initial design, had Kawai in mind when developing the piano using the CAD..pardon the confusion

This brings up an interesting point in regard to trade in policies. To my knowledge every reputable dealer will offer full trade in on the "purchase price" of a new piano.

But few will offer full trade in value on new grands at an adjusted sale price. Does Steinway or their dealers do this?

I was curious as to the different opinions people here might have about this.

Hank,

One of the major differences is the amount of money in labor between the Boston and Steinway. The V-Pro plate is one example of this. The sand-cast plate is much more expensive to build than V-Pro plates. V-Pro is simply another way to build a plate as used by the other manufacturers that you stated. I think there are probably pros and cons for both, however, one is simply a lot less expensive than the other.

How long have you sold pianos, Phil?

Be gentle, Larry...

Phil,

What about people who buy new Steinway S or M's -- then trade up to B's -- full trade in?

Ken

While it may that Larry and others are being a bit tough on Phil and on Steninway, I can understand where the anti-Steinway (or, more accurately, anti-Steinway hype) sentiment comes from. As a relative layman who recently shopped for a piano, the first place I went was to Steinway. However, after shopping around a bit and educating myself, it soon became apparent that Steinway is mostly full of sh**t. Their incredibly arrogant salesmen treat what is a very good product as the only viable product, and thereby justify their outrageous pricing. It is obviously a marketing technique that has worked very well for them. While this attitude is hard enough to swallow with real Steinway pianos, which are arguably unique (although not necessarily superior), it is truly insufferable when it comes to Boston and Essex pianos (which are neither unique nor superior).

I can only tell you what my store and most of the Detroit Area Stores do. We offer a Lifetime trade-up policy on all acoustic pianos as long as they double the original purchase price. (ex: $5000 original purchase gets $5000 trade-in on a $10,000 purchase) Sales prices are included as long as they meet this criteria. Exceptions? Aren't there always!!! The trade-in must be in good condition -normal wear & tear. Few problems so far or from other dealers as I understand it.

Not every Steinway sales person does that schtick. Actually, there are lots of personas that one finds in the piano biz. Actually, in sales generally. I have a friend who walked into a store with over $30,000 in cash to purchase an instrument -- walked out without even discussing purchasing a piano because the sales person was just too much. The biz does warp though too - so even if one starts out sane, there's no guarantee that one will remain so.

Ken

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I just returned from Las Vegas. Glad to be back in Dallas where the temperature is only in the 90's compared to over 113!!!

Anyway, if you are still interested in Kawai, you need to drive up to Plano and visit Keyboards Unlimited. They are the local authorized dealer and have a wonderful selection including 8-10 S. Kawais. You want to ask for Mike Terrill and tell him that PT recommended you. I think they are having one of those bogus college sales this weekend at Collin County Community College. Mike is a tech by trade which offers a better insight I think. Good Luck.

Who, ME???

But......but..... I was just asking an innocent question.....

Phil
Fly away while you still can.
Larry patrols this forum for BS like a spider at a porch light.

I bought my (used) piano at a Steinway dealer - Fields.

Maybe Fields is an anomaly, but I was treated very well there. Questions were answered with a minimum of spin, opinions were identified as such. I was not pressured to buy that day or any other day. I was invited to play any piano I liked, including their stratospherically priced rebuilt Victorian jobs. The purchase was refreshingly straightforward, and they did every single thing they promised to do.

My point is this. Everyone gripes about bad experiences but few praise the positive ones. Both deserve equal exposure. I think the piano shopping experience at a Steinway dealer has more to do with the individual salesperson than the brand they carry.

Best advice is to see for yourself.

Hey guys, I would just like to take the time to express how excited that I am that MY TOPIC has started a flame war! I've always wanted this, and now I finally have, yae! Keep it up!

Larry...and all:

How would you rate the old "full trade value up to
next model" sales spin rate on your B.S. meter?

[Is it 12 or a 15.... out of 10?]

Puzzled

norbert

Actually, I don't have time to flame, I'm rejoicing in the fact that my Chinese piano uses a superior wet sand cast plate! And has a bigger soundboard than the 5'4"! Eat your heart out Boston! :p :p :p

In all seriousness, crawl through a RX series Kawai, and an equivalent sized Boston. There are some differences, but there are a lot of things that are very similar.

Anyone care to dispute that the wholesale prices of like-sized Bostons and Kawais are very close?

At least until the contract runs out, and Steinway decides to let YC build the Boston.

And as an adjunct to Norbert's question:Wonder what the percentage of Boston owners take advantage of Steinway's trade-in policy?

When I bought my Kawai from the local Steinway dealer they offered me the same trade up deal. I never took it very seriously but I guess it shows how much difference there really is between a Boston and a Kawai even to a Steinway dealer.

OK, I've been biting my tongue for the longest time everytime someone talks of full trade up value.

We all know there is no such thing as a free lunch, so why would we think there is something called a full trade up value? If that dealer pays you more for that piano tha it's true wholesale value he has to make it up somewhere. Guess where? How about the price of the new piano you purchase?

There is nothing wrong with trading your old piano if you don't want to sell it yourself, but anyone thinking they are getting something for nothing is only deluding themselves. It works just like the automobile trade in. The more they give you for yours the more they have to charge you for theirs.

........"Sorry for the rant" he says as he quietly steps down off the soapbox, pushes it back behind the cutain, and goes on about his evening.....

Good night Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

Wonder what they'd say if you buy a Steinway first and then ask them if you could trade up to a

....BOSTON!!

norbert

Norbert,

Wouldn't they owe you at least two Bostons?

...and a half! :p

Maybe I'm nuts, but who's to say you have to tell the dealer up front that you have a trade in? Personally I'd handle it just like buying a car - negotiate the price of the piano you want THEN discuss the trade in. I haven't seen anything on the fine print of these "full value trade-in"s which precludes doing this. Am I just not looking close enough?

They would, no doubt, tell you that they could not offer the price you negotiated on a trade in. Nothing in the fine print stops them from doing that either.

the truth of the matter is (and I'm sure alot of dealers would agree) that most people buy 1 piano in their lifetime so although the policy may be in place, it doesn't get taken advantage of as much as you'd think

I agree with Casper on the % of trading up, it is not something that is taken advantage of very often.
In my experience, most dealers take Bostons on trade against retail pricing, unless the dealer is running a sale event. Steinways are twice the price of Bostons, so for that reason I obviously would stress the point if the would-be buyers expressed interest in owning a Steinway from the start, then the sooner they trade up, the lighter it will be on their wallets.

I did and now he won't call me back, I feel foolish.