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I used to play as a kid and since its been so long i have to start from scratch again. Out of your experience, is there any specific way to go at this?
This is the "plan" i had in mind:
- Read theory books (what would you recommend?) - Practice "drills" for my chops (same as above) - Try to read sheet music and play songs
Thanks in advance.
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I played as a kid for a decade or so reaching a very good proficiency level. I had about 20 years of a break in the middle and I restarted in my mid thirties as self taught. After about one year I restarted taking lessons because I was able to play what I did as a kid but I wasn't able to improve beyond that level.
There are plenty of self taught musicians who are extremely happy and/or successful, it all depends on what you want to do, which level you want to reach and the timeline you have in mind.
A teacher can allow you to get further in less time, and in most cases can make the "impossible", possible. At the end of the day it all depends if you value that or not.
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I am going down that road myself, but have only been at it two weeks. Going well so far though. Have you had theory training, formal training in another instrument, or years of experience playing another instrument? If not, then a teacher is likely needed as you will need a developed ear to properly hear the subtle mistakes you make and help explain concepts you don't know if you have never studied before. If you still want to try it, find lessons online and observe the finger technique and posture like a hawk and mimic it. You can end up developing bad habits which will hold you back or hurt yourself. I'd recommend reading the free online book "Fundamentals of Piano Practice" which for me, as a self-taught piano player am finding very useful. You can find that, amongst other useful stuff, in the resources section of the following thread: https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...ant_Topics_on_the_Adult_.html#Post972650Also might want to read a little from a guy who taught himself and gives advice and writes about his experience with doing it alone, the ups and downs, pitfalls etc: https://pianoselfteached.wordpress.com/2016/01/09/bernhards-forum-posts-about-self-teaching/https://pianoselfteached.wordpress.com/Maybe you can do it if you word hard, and work very carefully and research. A teacher though, especially a good gone can guide you and give the right feedback. If you think you have a good ear for picking out mistakes like, certain notes having the wrong attack, tiny timing issues like note duration and other things then you could try. If you have not musical experience at all. It is practically a must to get a teacher to pick up on things that you can't yet, and show you improvements over what you are doing and guide your whole learning process. For a deep an instrument as piano, you probably will need one if you have no or limited experience in music elsewhere.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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Actually, probably being overly cautious. If you have no musical experience and want to teach yourself, go for it. But educate yourself well on technique, music theory and ear-training. Carefully go through method books like the Albert series, watch plenty of videos on youtube and observe what is being done. It is possible, will just be a slog without a teacher if you don't already have a lot of musical experience you can transfer.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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I am not trying to dismiss being self-taught, but you will not be able to mimic videos for technique and posture to the extent you think you can. Why? You will not always recognize what you are doing differently. A personal example: I was holding tension in my right shoulder, but it took a good teacher to recognize what I was doing. I did not feel it, and therefore I could not self-correct.
We have spent time correcting other bad habits, really many.
You will not be able to hear and analyze the nuances your teacher can hear. We spent an entire lesson discussing the nuances in a Chopin nocturne... how to blend the arpeggios, when pedaling might be best, trill technique, fingering changes, .....subtleties. I could not have mimicked what I learned with this lesson no matter how many recordings I listened to... and I did listen to many.
This is not to argue that you must have a teacher... but to present the perspective of what you gain from having one.
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When I golf, I see many people who have decided to "learn" to play golf by just getting out there and doing it. They get "tips" and "instruction" from their friends who never had a lesson in their life. The result usually falls somewhere in between decent and disastrous.
I started the same way. Then, I decided to take some lessons. The difference in the improvement of my game was dramatic. The game became much easier. I now understood the dynamics of a golf swing. Something I could not "see" by simply watching good players.
I suspect the same is true of playing the piano.
Good Luck
Don
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In my experience so far, it seems that how well self-teaching can work will depend a lot on your goals. Many here are focused on playing classical music. It seems to me that this is quite a lofty goal, somewhat akin to preparing for the Olympics. I really can't see a person really becoming proficient at this on their own, especially with all the subtle and not-so-subtle nuances of technique that "proper" performance in this area requires.
However, if you want to play blues, boogie woogie, and such, these have a long history of self-taught players who became the "luminaries" in their respective styles. Those who originated these styles were largely uneducated and economically without any of the advantages people in these forums most likely have. Yet, they produced very powerful and moving music.
A person who is self-teaching is obviously BOTH student and teacher. Therefore, you would have to decide on what it is you want to accomplish, spend the time and effort laying out a plan to get there, finding whatever materials you need to use to accomplish your goal, and then provide the motivation to do it consistently. It might be helpful to get in contact with others who are taking a similar path, but those same people might also steer you down some blind alleyways. It will be entirely up to you, who you listen to for advice and whether you determine that advice is helpful for you or not.
One of the most difficult aspects of self-teaching is staying focused for the long haul. Especially today with the internet, there is much distraction in the form of products promising to make you the player you want to be seemingly overnight, other products promising some secret method that will put you ahead of the pack with some effort, and opinions (both informed and uninformed) expressed endlessly in forums such as this. During periods when we are on the plateau in our learning process or when we are otherwise struggling to learn some particular technique, all of these distractions start to look like ways around the problem - shortcuts to our goals. This can be quite compelling, and many of us self-teachers have been led astray, only to find that our original plans really were where we should have been all along. Some of us get back on track, while others never find their way again. Most of us end up with a pile of different methods from which we can draw what we need, when we need it. This is much like a person having multiple teachers at some point in their learning process. If approached intelligently, this can work well.
When self-teaching, your success or failure is entirely up to you. With a teacher it really is too, but at least there you have (hopefully) an experienced guide.
Tony
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I am not trying to dismiss being self-taught, but you will not be able to mimic videos for technique and posture to the extent you think you can. Why? You will not always recognize what you are doing differently. A personal example: I was holding tension in my right shoulder, but it took a good teacher to recognize what I was doing. I did not feel it, and therefore I could not self-correct.
We have spent time correcting other bad habits, really many.
You will not be able to hear and analyze the nuances your teacher can hear. We spent an entire lesson discussing the nuances in a Chopin nocturne... how to blend the arpeggios, when pedaling might be best, trill technique, fingering changes, .....subtleties. I could not have mimicked what I learned with this lesson no matter how many recordings I listened to... and I did listen to many.
This is not to argue that you must have a teacher... but to present the perspective of what you gain from having one. You makes some very valid points. What I can do for now is get used to playing simple stuff using materials designed for self study and when my financial situation changes, find a good teacher. In my respect though, piano won't be my main hobby, but if you are going to do it right, getting a good teacher should not be a "might". Those subtleties will be hard to grasp. I believe there is literature and video of such lessons but picking up on minor bad habits and showing the right way, that takes a teacher. I will track down a good one. Even if I can get it once every two weeks that is something. 1 hour each time. Teachers generally act as guides, but we spend more time without them than with them. Thank you for your comments. That has helped clear some things in my head regarding this. At least one thing I know I can definitely teach myself, and that is languages, so we'll leave it at that! :p
Last edited by Ulven; 02/03/16 10:35 AM.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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My nephew is completely self taught. He started playing at the age of 6 and is now 31. He kind of makes me sick as he frequently ribs me for seeking professional tuition. He is happily ignorant of quite a lot of terminology. His fingering may not always be technically perfect. He can however compose his own blues pieces to a standard that makes my eyes water. He also plays some Rachmaninoff pieces to a standard that I don't feel I will ever get to with all the tuition in the world. Having said this I am only 3 months into stuff and my teacher can see weekly progress in me and I can see weekly progress in myself and am extremely happy with where I am going. For what its worth I don't personally feel I could work out how to open the piano lid without tuition.
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Here's kind of my take on it -
If you have to ask -
Because I think whether or not self-teaching works for you is very much a personality thing, and that those of us for whom self-teaching actually works have just gone and done it.
That said, I had 2 years in my early teens, didn't play for around 35 years, and then re-started. I've learned a lot from others, but don't do formal lessons.
OTOH, I learned a *lot* in those 2 years in my early teens, and also played sax in band and sang in choirs, some of which was really helpful when I started again, and some of which that I needed when I restarted just wasn't there, so I picked it up other ways.
There are people here who have started from scratch as adults and are really good at figuring it out and figuring out how to figure it how.
But again, I think it's a personality/activity thing. If that's the way you've learned other things and this seems similar, go for it.
But if you're asking, then maybe you learn differently, and a good basic set of instructions from private lessons or a class is a better way to lay down the foundation, and after that you can keep going solo (not that, in the end, any of us actually go solo - some of us just don't have formal lessons. But PW is a great resource and a great way to find other resources.) Or - it may be that formal lessons are a way to make accomplishments that give you great pleasure.
Whichever, go for it. But to me it really is a personality thing. I'd go nuts with formal lessons, but I have a blast going solo and finding resources and picking it up. It's up to you.
Cathy Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
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Guys, thanks a lot for all of the advice. Believe me, i am very aware of the concerns here but going the self-taught route is simply a financial matter right now.
Again, if you have anything to recommend, i would be thankful.
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Here's kind of my take on it -
If you have to ask -
Because I think whether or not self-teaching works for you is very much a personality thing, and that those of us for whom self-teaching actually works have just gone and done it.
That said, I had 2 years in my early teens, didn't play for around 35 years, and then re-started. I've learned a lot from others, but don't do formal lessons.
OTOH, I learned a *lot* in those 2 years in my early teens, and also played sax in band and sang in choirs, some of which was really helpful when I started again, and some of which that I needed when I restarted just wasn't there, so I picked it up other ways.
There are people here who have started from scratch as adults and are really good at figuring it out and figuring out how to figure it how.
But again, I think it's a personality/activity thing. If that's the way you've learned other things and this seems similar, go for it.
But if you're asking, then maybe you learn differently, and a good basic set of instructions from private lessons or a class is a better way to lay down the foundation, and after that you can keep going solo (not that, in the end, any of us actually go solo - some of us just don't have formal lessons. But PW is a great resource and a great way to find other resources.) Or - it may be that formal lessons are a way to make accomplishments that give you great pleasure.
Whichever, go for it. But to me it really is a personality thing. I'd go nuts with formal lessons, but I have a blast going solo and finding resources and picking it up. It's up to you. Definitely! Not everybody can or wants to be his or her own teacher. I would probably "go nuts" at this point if I were to take lessons. I taught myself to play guitar, and played for a few years full time professionally in a supper club trio setting. Despite what some may think, the guitar is not "easier" than piano. Every instrument has its unique qualities and challenges, and deserves equal respect on the part of the learner and those who play other instruments. The biggest challenge (other than what is normally involved learning to play a new instrument) with the piano has been to figure out what I want to do and then what I need to do it (besides a piano). Once that was accomplished, I have been steadily moving forward. Everybody has different ways of learning, so what works for me will not likely be THE solution for somebody else. I have also learned that talking specifics about my own practice is not really a positive thing for me. First, it tends to take energy from my practicing for some reason (I honestly don't know why), and second, it opens up what does work for me, to criticism from others who can then talk me out of doing what works for me. So, instead, I choose to talk in generalities about what challenges self-teaching offers. I learned that the hard way, by spouting off about this or that wonderful self-teaching course in these forums, and then losing interest in it soon after making all those worthless posts. One other thing...anybody can pose as anybody on the net and especially in these forums. Until I post a video that shows that I truly CAN play, I really don't have any "street cred" that allows me to give advice specifically about what and how to practice. I could be nothing more than a "poser" building my own ego by posting such advice, and that advice may therefore sound good, but have no bearing in proven practice. I see that quite often in guitar forums when it comes to people spouting about the depths of their knowledge of music theory that I know from experience on the bandstand, may be factual, but completely worthless to the professional musician. From a pro standpoint, the amount of theory one needs to know is really quite simple and can be learned in a very short time. Unfortunately, many are put off by the seeming endless quagmire of knowledge they think they need because of such posts. Until I can play well enough to show that any advice about how to practice I give has basis in proven ability, I will refrain from doing so. I am still in the process of learning and can make no claims beyond that at this point. The best way I can think of to provide real information that has any value to anybody else regarding this or that self-teaching course is to post about it AFTER I have successfully gone through it and can prove that I can actually play. Otherwise, all I am doing is shilling for whatever is the most recent course I have purchased. I admit to being guilty of this, and have seen many other such posts whenever such a thread gets started. We rarely, if ever, hear of somebody actually finishing such a course and then posting a video showing what s/he learned. I doubt that is the fault of the course. Tony
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Odot, I'm responding here as a teacher, and as one with a specialty in the adult learner at the piano. My advice is to find a congenial teacher in your area who applauds your self-learning, but is willing to see you once every month or so for maybe 90 minutes.
Just someone you can check in with now and again, and who can select level-appropriate music for you, alongside your own choices.
That wouldn't be expensive.
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Odot, I'm responding here as a teacher, and as one with a specialty in the adult learner at the piano. My advice is to find a congenial teacher in your area who applauds your self-learning, but is willing to see you once every month or so for maybe 90 minutes.
Just someone you can check in with now and again, and who can select level-appropriate music for you, alongside your own choices.
That wouldn't be expensive. Now THAT sounds like an ideal solution! Maybe I should find something like that in my area. Tony
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The best way I can think of to provide real information that has any value to anybody else regarding this or that self-teaching course is to post about it AFTER I have successfully gone through it and can prove that I can actually play. Otherwise, all I am doing is shilling for whatever is the most recent course I have purchased. I admit to being guilty of this, and have seen many other such posts whenever such a thread gets started. We rarely, if ever, hear of somebody actually finishing such a course and then posting a video showing what s/he learned. I doubt that is the fault of the course. It sounds like you have taken a path similar to my own. I am sure that many of the piano courses available on DVD or on-line will turn a dedicated student into a reasonably good piano player. The trick is to pick one of them and stick with it. That is perhaps why taking lessons can work well. If you stick with one teacher for a while you will get somewhere. If you jump around from teacher to teacher you will not be successful either. So, having said that....\ Let me throw this out to the OP. If you wish to play classical music on the piano I would suggest .... http://fundamentalkeys.com/It is my sincere belief that if do what is asked of you at that site and utilize the options for video examples and possible Skype assistance, you will become a very good pianist. On the other hand, if you try it for a few weeks and then jump to some other "faster" method, you will not be as successful. AND ... If you combine it with the following suggestion posted earlier, you will have a winning combination. Odot, I'm responding here as a teacher, and as one with a specialty in the adult learner at the piano. My advice is to find a congenial teacher in your area who applauds your self-learning, but is willing to see you once every month or so for maybe 90 minutes.
Just someone you can check in with now and again, and who can select level-appropriate music for you, alongside your own choices.
That wouldn't be expensive. Good Luck
Last edited by dmd; 02/03/16 12:32 PM.
Don
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- Read theory books (what would you recommend?) Read books on how to practise. Theory will come in time. The more you know about the notation the less you'll assume but the theory is better when there's some practice behind you. - Practice "drills" for my chops (same as above) No. Therein lies the greatest danger of bad habits and poor technique. Drill your pieces, leave your chops for dinner. - Try to read sheet music and play songs Yes. Play pieces, build repertoire. That's where the greatest growth occurs. Listen. Train your ear to listen. Listen to professionals, listen to yourself, spot the differences. Imitate. Record yourself and really listen. Read something new every day, memorise something new every day and play something from memory every day. If you play a piece you know, from memory or from the score, try to improve at least one part of it every time you play it (this works especially well when playing for others). Always have a purpose.
Richard
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I'm a self-taught classical player with nearly 50 years experience. With a teacher I would have been a much better pianist, so I recommend finding one as soon as you have the chance.
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Odot, I'm responding here as a teacher, and as one with a specialty in the adult learner at the piano. My advice is to find a congenial teacher in your area who applauds your self-learning, but is willing to see you once every month or so for maybe 90 minutes.
Just someone you can check in with now and again, and who can select level-appropriate music for you, alongside your own choices.
That wouldn't be expensive. Now THAT sounds like an ideal solution! Maybe I should find something like that in my area. Tony I agree! That is close to the situation I have, and I love it. Our joke is that he is not my piano teacher, but my piano "consultant." It's important for me to feel self-directed, that I don't HAVE to do exactly what he suggests -- because I fear that losing motivation is the ultimate killer. I don't want to feel like I'm slogging through some daily routine of things I'm "supposed" to do but don't enjoy. On the other hand, there are pieces I'd love to play and can't, and he has helped me work on developing the skills I need to work up to where I need to be. The other thing that has been a great motivator is hearing HIM play pieces that made me want to strive to get better so I could take them on. On another note--the original poster asked for advice as a self learner. The one thing I wish I had done more diligently starting out was to find pieces that are fingered well and follow ALL the fingering exactly. You can learn a lot from that! I was way to loose and easy starting out. The issue of which finger goes on which key can take you a long way. Plus if you play enough well-fingered pieces, your brains starts to remember patterns and you then start using them on un-fingered scores, etc.
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Odot, I'm responding here as a teacher, and as one with a specialty in the adult learner at the piano. My advice is to find a congenial teacher in your area who applauds your self-learning, but is willing to see you once every month or so for maybe 90 minutes.
Just someone you can check in with now and again, and who can select level-appropriate music for you, alongside your own choices.
That wouldn't be expensive. Now THAT sounds like an ideal solution! Maybe I should find something like that in my area. Tony That's the solution I came up with recently. Unfortunately life for some of us, it is not so much not having time at all, but having a regular schedule just isn't possible making a regular weekly or even fortnightly lesson easily possible, or having a week where I can get sufficient piano time to prepare for the week after. Mine will be more or less every 1, 2 months probably at this rate, more work bhaaa. Today is the first free afternoon I had since new year with some time to breath, that's how it is for some of us. That said, finding a teacher understanding your situation, trying to make the best out of it. I had a first good hour interview with her on the phone, with questions for each teacher trying to understand their modus operandi 'till I found what I thought was right for me. I think a lesson even if ever so seldom is better than no lesson at all, but having a teacher you like, understands you and the limitations that come with it is a must. I've even considered her travelling to my house to which she is open, it will cost extra, but in my case it may mean having a lesson in a space if timed right, we could do it bit more often. So for the foreseeable future I am and still continuing my self taught regime mostly in my random hours where I can fit it, but with the occasional check up from my teacher every once in a while to see how things are going. So far that has been only one trial lesson an a real one, 2 hours total, after around 20 months entirely self taught so far, but it has been working out well so far. Of course, there are things I have been given to work on. That said, for the time I have been playing and at least two teachers I had actual trial lessons with pointed out they would not have easily guessed I was self taught, the progress made was impressive according to them, ( Probably given my age and all or they were just being nice ) saying I could easily have come from another good teacher, pointing out my technique was actually rather good, and mostly better than those after that same time with lessons or other students they get in every day at that stage. I guess self teaching doesn't bite completely, something can be done, even it will be never be as good as with proper lessons, both of these teachers well qualified btw. I really enjoy lessons anyway and felt before hand I would. I had recorder lesson as a child as well and enjoyed that, as well as some other wind instruments and self taught guitar during my late teens too.. For the piano it was a case of just making it happen finding one not too far away that felt right to me. That bit took a bit of time and research on my part. My final tipReally prepare for finding that teacher, and find plenty questions to ask as well as the teacher finding out about you. Quite often I read posts on here people pointing out things they don't like about a teacher after x months, where I am thinking, you could have known that with the right questions before hand to ask. Have a read of the teacher forums an the teachers on here, as it is a personal thing, clearly they are all very different in their approaches, the kind of mind sets they have and how they engage in having a discussion. Some appeal to me a lot of course, but some others will not, and some styles not at all. What that is for each person has to be an individual choice, that you have to find for yourself. Good luck in your journey
Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/03/16 02:51 PM.
Selftaught since June 2014. Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various... Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos. 12x ABF recitals. My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
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Odot, I'm responding here as a teacher, and as one with a specialty in the adult learner at the piano. My advice is to find a congenial teacher in your area who applauds your self-learning, but is willing to see you once every month or so for maybe 90 minutes.
Just someone you can check in with now and again, and who can select level-appropriate music for you, alongside your own choices.
That wouldn't be expensive. Now THAT sounds like an ideal solution! Maybe I should find something like that in my area. Tony That's the solution I came up with recently... finding a teacher understanding your situation, trying to make the best out of it.
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Thanks a lot for all of the words you guys. Right now i am going through the book Berklee Music Theory 1 In addition to that i practice memorizing basic sight reading as well as scales and chords Then i look for sheet music i can learn I will mos def look at a teacher, even if its not on the regular. By the way, Jazz is what i want to study in particular.
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[/quote] The issue of which finger goes on which key can take you a long way. Plus if you play enough well-fingered pieces, your brains starts to remember patterns and you then start using them on un-fingered scores, etc.[/quote]
Esp. helpful if one analyses and understands why a recommended fingering is in a certain way. And combining this with a lot of playing also, of course.
Will do some R&B for a while. Give the classical a break. You can spend the rest of your life looking for music on a sheet of paper. You'll never find it, because it just ain't there. - Me Myself
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I have a couple of books that give fingerings for every note (and an explanation for why). These are:
1. Rockfluence by Scott D. Davis These are solo piano renditions of famous rock tunes such as Stairway To Heaven, Hotel California, Nothing Else Matters, Open Arms, etc. - quite accurate to the original recordings. Scott says that these fingerings are exactly how he performs these in concert. The woman who did the transcriptions says she has small hands, so she provides additional notation for alternate fingerings she uses to play these.
2. Piano Improvisation: A Powerful Practical System by Frank Caruso and Karl Mollison This is a step by step guide to the language of improvisation by a long time pro pianist who played with all the great jazz players and singers, so this is a practical system from bandstand experience rather than some ivory tower theorist. Frank says these fingerings are especially intended to make for the most efficient possible fingering of the passages and phrases, as borne out in real life performance situations.
3. Selected Works of W.A. Mozart and Selected Works of J.S. Bach by William F. Buckley, Jr. These two books are probably out of print. Buckley had his piano teacher finger every note, with coloring of some fingerings to indicate crossing fingers and such. Very effective. He used these to prepare for recitals.
These 4 books represent a nice cross section of musical styles and how they are fingered. The first two are in print and readily available. The second two are probably out of print, but should show up used somewhere at some time. I would think that, especially for self-teachers, these books would be very high on the "I need..." list. I don't know where else you would get that real-world guidance (i.e. real music, fingerings vetted by real performers, rather than what might be considered theoretically correct) otherwise.
Tony
Last edited by TonyB; 02/04/16 09:57 AM.
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I have a couple of books that give fingerings for every note (and an explanation for why). These are:
1. Rockfluence by Scott D. Davis These are solo piano renditions of famous rock tunes such as Stairway To Heaven, Hotel California, Nothing Else Matters, Open Arms, etc. - quite accurate to the original recordings. Scott says that these fingerings are exactly how he performs these in concert. The woman who did the transcriptions says she has small hands, so she provides additional notation for alternate fingerings she uses to play these.
2. Piano Improvisation: A Powerful Practical System by Frank Caruso and Karl Mollison This is a step by step guide to the language of improvisation by a long time pro pianist who played with all the great jazz players and singers, so this is a practical system from bandstand experience rather than some ivory tower theorist. Frank says these fingerings are especially intended to make for the most efficient possible fingering of the passages and phrases, as borne out in real life performance situations.
3. Selected Works of W.A. Mozart and Selected Works of J.S. Bach by William F. Buckley, Jr. These two books are probably out of print. Buckley had his piano teacher finger every note, with coloring of some fingerings to indicate crossing fingers and such. Very effective. He used these to prepare for recitals.
These 4 books represent a nice cross section of musical styles and how they are fingered. The first two are in print and readily available. The second two are probably out of print, but should show up used somewhere at some time. I would think that, especially for self-teachers, these books would be very high on the "I need..." list. I don't know where else you would get that real-world guidance (i.e. real music, fingerings vetted by real performers, rather than what might be considered theoretically correct) otherwise.
Tony
Tony: those look like great books for beginners to work on fingering. I especially wish I had the Mozart/Bach! Might see if I can find it used. It sounds great. One thing that your post jarred in me though was this: sometimes, for me, I found it quite instructive when NOT all fingers were numbered. Again, this is only helpful if the fingering is done *well*! But after you use a book for a while, if the fingering was all done by the same person, you get a sense of the style. I found it very instructive to figure out WHY the fingers were indicated at the positions that they were. Where there were no fingers indicated, it leads one to think: why? There must be some other way to figure it out. It doesn't always make sense, but in a good book you can usually always figure it out. For example, first piece (Minuet in G) of the "First Lessons in Bach" book--the fingers are indicated where your hand changes position, etc. Here's another thing that I might suggest for a beginner and the issue of fingering: the importance of following a good suggested fingering closely depends on the kind of music you are playing. At the beginning I was all about Bach, esp. trying to get going on the French Suites or some of the easier WTC preludes. In that context, I found fingering suggestions were crucial. The problem is (I think) it is like an interlocking puzzle. How you do one thing affects the next thing. Of course this is true in all music, but I think in Bach it becomes even more important.
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One thing that your post jarred in me though was this: sometimes, for me, I found it quite instructive when NOT all fingers were numbered.
Agreed. Many beginners I have taught will determine the note by the fingering number rather than by the note itself, which is a pitfall, IMHO. Just the other day, I asked a student (2 years in) what is that note, and she said "Its a 3". Sigh. More advanced music will often have just the "starter" finger number for a phrase or run, so that you start on the best finger for that phrase, and the others will (usually) fall into place logically. I often will white-out the fingering for easy music that my students use, and just put a starter finger number in, so they do not use the many other numbers as an alternative (and a crutch) to reading the music itself.
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I have a couple of books that give fingerings for every note (and an explanation for why). These are:
1. Rockfluence by Scott D. Davis These are solo piano renditions of famous rock tunes such as Stairway To Heaven, Hotel California, Nothing Else Matters, Open Arms, etc. - quite accurate to the original recordings. Scott says that these fingerings are exactly how he performs these in concert. The woman who did the transcriptions says she has small hands, so she provides additional notation for alternate fingerings she uses to play these.
2. Piano Improvisation: A Powerful Practical System by Frank Caruso and Karl Mollison This is a step by step guide to the language of improvisation by a long time pro pianist who played with all the great jazz players and singers, so this is a practical system from bandstand experience rather than some ivory tower theorist. Frank says these fingerings are especially intended to make for the most efficient possible fingering of the passages and phrases, as borne out in real life performance situations.
3. Selected Works of W.A. Mozart and Selected Works of J.S. Bach by William F. Buckley, Jr. These two books are probably out of print. Buckley had his piano teacher finger every note, with coloring of some fingerings to indicate crossing fingers and such. Very effective. He used these to prepare for recitals.
These 4 books represent a nice cross section of musical styles and how they are fingered. The first two are in print and readily available. The second two are probably out of print, but should show up used somewhere at some time. I would think that, especially for self-teachers, these books would be very high on the "I need..." list. I don't know where else you would get that real-world guidance (i.e. real music, fingerings vetted by real performers, rather than what might be considered theoretically correct) otherwise.
Tony
Tony: those look like great books for beginners to work on fingering. I especially wish I had the Mozart/Bach! Might see if I can find it used. It sounds great. One thing that your post jarred in me though was this: sometimes, for me, I found it quite instructive when NOT all fingers were numbered. Again, this is only helpful if the fingering is done *well*! But after you use a book for a while, if the fingering was all done by the same person, you get a sense of the style. I found it very instructive to figure out WHY the fingers were indicated at the positions that they were. Where there were no fingers indicated, it leads one to think: why? There must be some other way to figure it out. It doesn't always make sense, but in a good book you can usually always figure it out. For example, first piece (Minuet in G) of the "First Lessons in Bach" book--the fingers are indicated where your hand changes position, etc. Here's another thing that I might suggest for a beginner and the issue of fingering: the importance of following a good suggested fingering closely depends on the kind of music you are playing. At the beginning I was all about Bach, esp. trying to get going on the French Suites or some of the easier WTC preludes. In that context, I found fingering suggestions were crucial. The problem is (I think) it is like an interlocking puzzle. How you do one thing affects the next thing. Of course this is true in all music, but I think in Bach it becomes even more important. Th style certainly can determine the fingering. This is why I made a point of the fact that my books cross a couple of different styles. Also, these 4 books are the ONLY ones I have that finger every note. They are BY FAR, the exception, rather than the rule. I have never seen any other books that every note fingered. I am working right now out of a series of lesson books and their associated solo volumes, and these have only the sparsest of fingering numbers. The author feels that people should work out what is most comfortable for them, given some guidelines. The author will, at times, present a couple of ways to finger a passage and suggest the student pick one that works best for him or her. As for the next poster making a point about beginners relying on the finger numbers instead of the notes, I have had the ability to read music for many years. Though many guitar players I have encountered do not read music, I always could. I have had to learn to read the bass clef for piano, but that really was not difficult for me. I have never had a problem about reading music. I don't doubt, however, that there may be people who do rely on the fingerings instead of the notation, and that would not be a good thing. Tony
Last edited by TonyB; 02/04/16 05:32 PM.
Roland V-Grand
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Hi Tony, Fingering has been my Achilles Heel, but my current teacher has impressed upon me that good fingering is not just about the style of music but the actual score... and what might be comfortable may not be right based on what the music itself needs. Considerations: where are you in the phrase? Where are you going on the next series of notes? Do any notes need to be sustained or legato maintained?
All considerations based on the score may make the fingering feel awkward until you reach a comfort level.. but it is one way to maintain the intent of the composition. This is not to imply to risk hand injury but to carefully evaluate what is pre-printed.
Just one perspective for your consideration. I'm still improving but thinking about the needs of the music has really helped me see what an important consideration fingering is.
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I'm self-taught. It can be done, the most important thing is to avoid hurting yourself. The biggest danger is a thing called "finger independence" -- if done wrong, you can be trying to do things that the tendons for fingers 4 and 5 make anatomically impossible. It's kinda like body piercing -- if you decide you want it, better consult an expert. But you can do quite a lot before you have to contemplate that one.
There's a lot that can be learned from internet videos, but not by trying to reverse engineer some video of someone playing. There are teaching videos that range from very good to the opposite extreme. There's a series of nine videos from Professor John Mortensen at Cedarville University that are an excellent place to start. Also google "Taubman Golandsky" for a lot of valuable videos.
There are some threads in this very forum that are useful, one recent one is .... let me find it and come back with a link....
Here it is:
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2505260/What_I've_Learned_About_Practi.html#Post2505260
Last edited by JohnSprung; 02/04/16 07:24 PM.
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I'm self-taught. It can be done, the most important thing is to avoid hurting yourself. The biggest danger is a thing called "finger independence" -- if done wrong, you can be trying to do things that the tendons for fingers 4 and 5 make anatomically impossible. It's kinda like body piercing -- if you decide you want it, better consult an expert. But you can do quite a lot before you have to contemplate that one.
There's a lot that can be learned from internet videos, but not by trying to reverse engineer some video of someone playing. There are teaching videos that range from very good to the opposite extreme. There's a series of nine videos from Professor John Mortensen at Cedarville University that are an excellent place to start. Also google "Taubman Golandsky" for a lot of valuable videos.
There are some threads in this very forum that are useful, one recent one is .... let me find it and come back with a link....
Here it is:
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2505260/What_I've_Learned_About_Practi.html#Post2505260
Thanks John. I downloaded the Professor Mortensen videos from youtube.com and will view them over the coming days. Have you worked with the Taubman method DVDs? They look interesting, but expensive. Thanks, Tony
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Hi Tony, Fingering has been my Achilles Heel, but my current teacher has impressed upon me that good fingering is not just about the style of music but the actual score... and what might be comfortable may not be right based on what the music itself needs. Considerations: where are you in the phrase? Where are you going on the next series of notes? Do any notes need to be sustained or legato maintained?
All considerations based on the score may make the fingering feel awkward until you reach a comfort level.. but it is one way to maintain the intent of the composition. This is not to imply to risk hand injury but to carefully evaluate what is pre-printed.
Just one perspective for your consideration. I'm still improving but thinking about the needs of the music has really helped me see what an important consideration fingering is. For me, it will be less about a particular composition, since my interests are not toward classical music, but instead about moving about the keyboard efficiently in a more general sense. The book oon improvisation that I mentioned is really about that, as much as it is about the vocabulary. Tony
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Have you worked with the Taubman method DVDs? They look interesting, but expensive. I'm a cheapskate, I've only looked at the free internet videos.... ;-) This thread has veered off into fingerings, so my take on that is that fingerings are never ordained by God. There are cases in which there may really be only one practical way to finger something, but most music can be fingered in a variety of ways. It behooves you to try a variety of fingerings, and not get locked in early to a particular set of fingering habits. Positional playing is the first habit that people seem to get into -- 1 is C, 2 is D, 3 is E, etc. and you stay there until you're forced to pop to a new position. It's a stepping stone that turns into a stumbling block. Music editors finger for their own hands, yours may be different. It's a nice windfall if you find someone who fingers things in a way that works for you. But never be afraid to chuck the given fingerings and try things that may give you more fluid results. I've been playing a lot of Cole Porter recently, and one fingering idea that I'm liking a lot is to use different fingers for repeated notes (which Porter does a lot). Where the positional way of doing that may be to use 3333, I like 5432. You can repeat faster that way, and depending on what comes before and after, it may help you move around the keyboard. It also works better for varying the emphasis between the different repetitions.
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Have you worked with the Taubman method DVDs? They look interesting, but expensive. I'm a cheapskate, I've only looked at the free internet videos.... ;-) This thread has veered off into fingerings, so my take on that is that fingerings are never ordained by God. There are cases in which there may really be only one practical way to finger something, but most music can be fingered in a variety of ways. It behooves you to try a variety of fingerings, and not get locked in early to a particular set of fingering habits. Positional playing is the first habit that people seem to get into -- 1 is C, 2 is D, 3 is E, etc. and you stay there until you're forced to pop to a new position. It's a stepping stone that turns into a stumbling block. Music editors finger for their own hands, yours may be different. It's a nice windfall if you find someone who fingers things in a way that works for you. But never be afraid to chuck the given fingerings and try things that may give you more fluid results. I've been playing a lot of Cole Porter recently, and one fingering idea that I'm liking a lot is to use different fingers for repeated notes (which Porter does a lot). Where the positional way of doing that may be to use 3333, I like 5432. You can repeat faster that way, and depending on what comes before and after, it may help you move around the keyboard. It also works better for varying the emphasis between the different repetitions. On the guitar, I have always worked out my own fingerings, though with classical music, I will look at suggested fingerings and sometimes there will be a suggestion that provides smoother or easier movements than I may have come up with. I expect similar on the piano as I progress (i.e. once I have a foundation for getting around the keyboard, I expect to consider alternative fingerings, and simply use what works best). Regarding the Taubman approach, I watched the free videos. It seems to me that there is quite a bit of really good information in it. The woman presenting seemed to take time to really explain the concepts. I read some reviews that compared the 10 DVDs to a single DVD from another person who dealt with similar issues. To me, I would rather have the in-depth demonstrations and explanations that 10 DVDs would allow time for, rather than rushing through everything because one DVD only allows for 1 minute per subject discussed/demonstrated. Tony
Last edited by TonyB; 02/04/16 10:05 PM.
Roland V-Grand
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Here are a lot more good videos: http://livingpianos.com/blog/There are well over three hundred. The downside is that they're not indexed or organized, you just have to scroll through the list and pick topics.
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To answer the OP, I'm self-taught, although still very much a beginner. I have a background on the guitar, banjo, ukulele, and most recently, native flute -- all self-taught. However, my goals aren't those of most here; I'm not interested in classical music, but in using the piano as a singer/songwriter instrument, as well as for noodling / improvisation, the way I do with my other instruments (except the flute, which you can't sing with).
The best tip I received from the forums was to approach the piano the way a folk/pop/country guitarist would approach the guitar: as a tool for singing songs with chords. That, combined with lots of experimentation has led to a lot of progress for me. I don't have audio to post, but I do have a direction I'm going in that pleases me. I don't read sheet music (nor do I want to learn to). I just work on putting chords and notes together in ways that sound good while singing.
My goal is to get to the point where I can simply print out lyrics and chords to a given song, the way I would with a stringed instrument, and get on with singing and playing it. I feel like once I get a few dozen songs under my belt, I'll be there.
Define your goals and find people who are actually meeting them. They'll give you the best advice.
"We pianists can learn a lot by emulating guitarists....think of a "typical" guitarist. Someone teaches them 3 or 4 chords and they immediately start strumming away and playing dozens of songs. Amazing, right? It's that easy, too, on piano...and you'll be having a lot of fun without much effort!"
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My primary interest is what is now called "Contemporary Solo Piano". The style has had the name "new age" piano for years for some reason even though most of the players I listen to have said that they do not have "new age" beliefs. Some of my favorites are David Lanz, Michele McLaughlin, David Nevue, and Steven Cravis as examples.
The style is chord based, but has a flow to it with one or more patterns in the left hand that outline the chordal harmony, and the right hand playing the melody with supporting harmonies. Boogie Woogie piano is like that too, even though its feel is anything but relaxing and flowing. In fact, learning boogie woogie can really help with this left/right hand coordination for this style and I am fooling around with that periodically too.
My learning process really consists of a "problem solving" approach I learned from David Sudnow. He said to learn everything "in the context of the song". To get both my hands moving properly around the keyboard in general, I have spent many weeks playing through the 12 major scales, starting around 3 hours a day and finally getting down to a half hour playing each scale multiple times and in multiple rhythms.
This has also limbered up my fingers and increased my stamina greatly. Now that I have achieved that, I am backing off this a bit and focusing much more on learning tunes that I especially like by ear. I have some sheet music for some of the tunes, but I use that like the answers in the back of a study book - to check my work after the fact.
My reason for learning other people's tunes is to get a real solid sense of the song forms, chord progressions, and the overall vocabulary. It is my goal to play my own music ultimately.
The problem solving aspect is to dive into the actual tunes I enjoy, and figure out where I run into trouble and why. I find the answers to these issues in my various piano courses. My primary focus is now the tunes and learning them, and then eventually leave all the behind as I do my own music. I have little intention of playing other people's music for performance. I have never had a good memory for memorizing speeches, poems, or pieces of music that other people wrote.
Almost all of the solo artists I listen to followed a similar route. The exception is David Nevue who seemed who apparently always composed his own music. Comtemporary solo piano was never really intended to be performed from sheet music as is classical music. It is really a realm for self-expression and composition and improvisation.
Tony
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I'm self-taught. It can be done, the most important thing is to avoid hurting yourself. The biggest danger is a thing called "finger independence" -- if done wrong, you can be trying to do things that the tendons for fingers 4 and 5 make anatomically impossible. It's kinda like body piercing -- if you decide you want it, better consult an expert. But you can do quite a lot before you have to contemplate that one.
There's a lot that can be learned from internet videos, but not by trying to reverse engineer some video of someone playing. There are teaching videos that range from very good to the opposite extreme. There's a series of nine videos from Professor John Mortensen at Cedarville University that are an excellent place to start. Also google "Taubman Golandsky" for a lot of valuable videos.
There are some threads in this very forum that are useful, one recent one is .... let me find it and come back with a link....
Here it is:
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2505260/What_I've_Learned_About_Practi.html#Post2505260
John, I ordered the Taubman 10 DVD set and got notice that it shipped today. It should be here in from 1 to 3 days via USPS priority. Yes, the set is expensive. However, I recall a number of pro musicians I know who have talked about that method as having had a huge impact on their ability to continue playing. This was some years ago, but these DVDs look, from the free video segments, to be converted from the original VHS tapes, which would have been around the time of the comments from these musicians. When I looked on the site at what each DVD covers, it was apparent that these discuss all the subjects that are, at most, touched on very briefly (if at all) in any self-teaching method. I suspect that "live" teachers will deal with some of these subjects in varying degrees, depending on the teacher. But here it all is, in depth. I watched the free videos, which are small segments from the DVDs, and each was well worthwhile for me. Fortunately, I can afford to purchase these at the moment, since I am just starting into a couple of months' contract job. So, now is the time if I plan to get these at all. I read some comments (pro and con) about the Taubman method. I remember one or two comments complaining that these moved too slowly and were therefore boring, and that there was another single DVD from somebody else that covered the same material. I personally prefer, especially when self-teaching, to have in-depth detail about something like this. That time can be spent on 10 DVDs, but I really don't see how that could be true in an hour or so on one DVD. The first 5 DVDs address issues common to all instruments for the most part, according to the site. This is believable since some of the pro musicians I mentioned earlier do play instruments other than piano, mostly guitar. The second 5 DVDs are apparently piano-specific. This is why they are sold as either one or the other set of 5, or as a complete set of 10. I tend to look at what the product is, rather than solely the cost (other than to determine if it is within my budget). To me, these seem to provide real value. Tony
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Tony, I'm interested in this series of videos as well. Please do give a review after you've spent some time with them. I'm specifically curious if they are actually useful for self learning. I fear that it may be hard to make much use of them without a teacher watching you and giving you feedback/making adjustments.
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Tony, I'm interested in this series of videos as well. Please do give a review after you've spent some time with them. I'm specifically curious if they are actually useful for self learning. I fear that it may be hard to make much use of them without a teacher watching you and giving you feedback/making adjustments. That is definitely a possibility for parts of it. However, there are discussions about actions you can take regarding fingering and such that are decisions you make when playing. The parts that I saw in the free videos seemed to give enough description and detail that I felt confident that I could use the information successfully. She answered a lot of concerns I had, for example, about proper seat height and going into much more detail than I have seen elsewhere on just that one subject. I see this DVD set as being applicable to whatever else you are doing on the piano, so it should always be relevant to me, making it worth the price IF that is really true. I certainly hope it is, though they do have a reasonable return policy. With these DVDs, I don't really see any alternatives if one wants that information at that level of detail and breadth, unfortunately. So it is either shell out or do without, which is unfortunate since this information really is important, in my opinion (and according to musicians that I know). To me, it would make sense for the Taubman people to provide a cheaper alternative in the form of a streaming access subscription. I will try to provide information about these DVDs in terms of whether they are really useful in practice beyond simply watching them. However, bear in mind that what I think is useful, somebody else may not. Also, different people learn in different ways. Even if these DVDs turn out to really speak to me, to somebody else they may not, and having either some other presenter or other media format (printed material, or ???) providing the information might be better. At $575, that is quite a gamble, and I don't want people flaming me for steering them wrong. Tony
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If anyone is interested and still has a VHS player, I have the original set of VHS tapes (all 10) which I will sell. PM me if you're interested. I believe their DVD's are simply copies of the tapes. I found them quite helpful, even without a teacher.
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If anyone is interested and still has a VHS player, I have the original set of VHS tapes (all 10) which I will sell. PM me if you're interested. I believe their DVD's are simply copies of the tapes. I found them quite helpful, even without a teacher. I believe that you are correct that the DVDs are simply copies of the original VHS tapes, based on what I saw from the free video samples on their site. Thanks for your comment about these being helpful even without a teacher. That is exactly what I am hoping for! If anybody else is interested in this material, EP has now just provided access to purchase "used". If I still had a VHS player and had not already ordered the DVDs, I would be all over this offer. Tony
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Getting them second hand might also be an option, or if you buy the videos, VHS players are stil easily available in used electronics shops or online.
Last edited by casinitaly; 02/09/16 03:59 AM. Reason: removed tip for illegal downloads
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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Getting them second hand might also be an option, or if you buy the videos, VHS players are stil easily available in used electronics shops or online. Ulven, This is a bit off topic, but here goes... I see that you live in Glasgow. In that area is a well known guitar builder, William Kelday. I recently purchased one of his guitars used locally. It is one of the finest instruments I have played, and I am proud to own it. Have you heard of this builder? If not, now you know that you have a well known luthier in your backyard. Few in this country (USA) know of him, but among those who do, he is held in the highest regard. Among British fingerstyle players, he is well known. One highly regarded player who plays a Kelday is Tony McManus. Here is his web site, and the model of guitar I have: www.keldayguitars.com/keldayguitars/html/000.htmlTony
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I heard his name in passing before, mainly I think from reading an article on McManus (great player) but never realised Kelday was from my neck of the woods! Only other Luthier I knew from Glasgow was Jimmy Moon.
Must say, I am slightly envious of your owning a Kelday! :p
I get by ok on my Freshman. Scottish company, but have their guitars built in South Korea I believe. Extremely high quality for the price but mainly for the budget and mid-price market. Essentially they help ensure you get a decent instrument whatever the price, and using a Planetwaves O-Port really helps them sing.
That Kelday you have looks brilliant, and sounds very balanced. Lovely midrange and sparkly treble with a clear but not overly pronounced bass. All I can say is nice choice!
Steve.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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I think the Kelday is voiced well for "Celtic" fingerstyle guitar. I have gotten interested in arranging and playing Irish and Scottish fiddle tunes for fingerstyle guitar. Rather than using other people's arrangements, I purchased several books that provide the melodies from such tunes from the 1700s and 1800s from Scotland: www.scotlandsmusic.com, and from a used bookstore in England so I can make my own from the original source material. It was just pure luck that a used Kelday showed up locally. I had never seen one before, and probably won't again. He does all the work himself, so he only makes a few per year. From what I have read, he seems to be doing more teaching/mentoring these days. Tony
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Arranging stuff yourself is usually best and much more satisfying. Scotland and Ireland have some nice folk melodies which go back a long time. One of my favourite "folk" players has to be John Doyle: https://youtu.be/K0PcaAd6AKMThat is indeed good luck. Most good luthiers only make usually around 1 a month at best, but fewer depending on what they do. It does seem well suited for Celtic music. I prefer to go for more bass in my acoustics. Mainly in that I am into contemporary fingerstyle which often uses many altered tunings with two handed tapping and percussion. I just love that aspect of trying to get as much out of a guitar as possible.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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Arranging stuff yourself is usually best and much more satisfying. Scotland and Ireland have some nice folk melodies which go back a long time. One of my favourite "folk" players has to be John Doyle: https://youtu.be/K0PcaAd6AKMThat is indeed good luck. Most good luthiers only make usually around 1 a month at best, but fewer depending on what they do. It does seem well suited for Celtic music. I prefer to go for more bass in my acoustics. Mainly in that I am into contemporary fingerstyle which often uses many altered tunings with two handed tapping and percussion. I just love that aspect of trying to get as much out of a guitar as possible. I too use alternate/open tunings, but am not involved in the tapping and percussive styles. The world of solo acoustic guitar has really expanded in recent years. Tony
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That it has, some of the new technical heights of that kind of playing are becoming rather astounding. I keep going back to Michael Hedges though, essentially the main pioneer of this style back in the early eighties. He was so musical with it whenever percussion came into it, and I found hisf request use of minimalism a la Steve Reich quite intriguing at times. One day I'd like to see if I can arrange some of his work for piano.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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This is a bit off topic, but here goes...
I see that you live in Glasgow. In that area is a well known guitar builder, William Kelday. .... You might do well to start a new thread, either here or in the piano forum. People who know about Kelday are far more likely to see it that way.
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Also this is derailing the thread a bit. Sorry, John. Let's get this train back on the right tracks.
Adult Beginner on piano (started 19 Jan 2016); 14 years' experience playing bass guitar, and several years on guitar. Kawai ES100, mainly played through a set of AKG K550's. Perils of thin walls and flatmates.
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Also this is derailing the thread a bit. Sorry, John. Let's get this train back on the right tracks. Agreed. It was intended to be just a short diversion. When the DVDs arrive, I will provide a brief comment on my initial impressions. Tony
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This is a bit off topic, but here goes...
I see that you live in Glasgow. In that area is a well known guitar builder, William Kelday. .... You might do well to start a new thread, either here or in the piano forum. People who know about Kelday are far more likely to see it that way. Good points John and I stand corrected. However, when I saw that Ulven lives in Glasgow, I just had to ask. In a face to face conversation, this would have been a 2 second exchange before moving back to the original topic. It simply turned out that both he and I play guitar. We will carry on this aspect of the conversation elsewhere. Tony
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Today, I received the Taubman 10 DVD set. The site gives a good overview of what these are, and also a full description of the contents of the DVDs. There is a LOT of material here, so it will take me quite some time to go through it. also, since I am a beginner, a lot of it will become relevant for me as I progress later on. I consider this a long term investment, rather than some Star Wars movie series I can watch in a week. My comments here will be about the DVD course in a general sense. I admit to having been a bit concerned about sending off $575 to a site that did not seem interactive as many such sites are these days. You simply select which set(s) of DVDs you want, and when you click, you are immediately off to PayPal. I waited a day or two for some validation of my order from the site, but there was none. I did get the typical PayPal receipt, however. I sent an email to the contact address, and got a response fairly quickly that detailed what was to happen and how the DVDs would be shipped, along with a link to the USPS tracking for it. The DVDs were sent USPS 2 Day Priority, however the "trick" is WHEN they actually leave the facility, so it is more like 4 - 5 days. So, there was no issue at all. They were quite responsive. I purchased the full set of 10 DVDs, though you can purchase DVDs 1 -5 or 6 - 10 separately. Set 1 - 5, though demonstrated on the piano, is intended for all musicians, while set 6 - 10 is intended specifically for pianists. Each of these two sets comes in a single box holding all 5 DVDs, along with a spiral bound book that has time stamps with printed comments and/or sheet music corresponding to that time stamp displayed on the DVD. When you buy all 10 DVDs, you get both boxes and the two accompanying manuals. I quickly skipped through all the DVDs to make sure that they all were readable, so as to be able to report any potential issues early enough to get replacements if needed. There were no issues found. In opening comments on DVD 6, Edna Golandsky says that the first 5 videos (made "a few years ago") dealt with general body coordination, while the next set of videos ("being made now") deal with specific movements/choreography in specific passages. The accompanying book has all the sheet music for the demonstrations with fingering numbers. So, clearly though these videos are each of a week long seminar, these seminars were intended to be video taped. Ednoa Golandsky sits at a desk and reads from text written by Dorothy Taubman, and goes to the piano to demonstrates various aspects of what she is describing. The DVDs are clearly made from the original VHS tapes are of good quality. DVDs 6 and 10 have some distortion on audio peaks and the video seems a bit washed out (but still clear enough), but otherwise everything seems clear enough. One thing that Edna Golandsky stresses on behalf of Dorothy Taubman in the opening comments on the first DVD is that these techniques are backed by science, and therefore invite the question "why" for everything being taught. In various points of the bits that I watched, she cites backing information from medical studies regarding various techniques being taught. How "right" this makes the Taubman approach, I can't answer. I do know that when I googled about the Taubman techniques around the internet, there were some posts that seemed to question some of the things being taught, saying that somebody else had better ideas on some other DVD. There are some master classes on these DVDs given by Dorothy Taubman, but I have yet to watch them. One thing I will say is that, as a self-teacher, I would rather have 10 DVDs that go into serious detail, than a one or two hour DVD that can't afford to give any time to any one technique. There seem to be enough professional musicians who claim to have benefited from the Taubman techniques, for me to believe that these techniques should be helpful to me as a hobbyist. The DVDs seem to be quality material and, as previously mentioned, I did not encounter any problems reading them. I wish that each was divided into "tracks" to make it easier to get around by subject, but they aren't. You have to fast forward or reverse to get to where you want on them. Fortunately, a time counter from the original VHS tapes is always displayed, and the books give an idea of what is where. The focus is on classical piano, and all the musical examples are from the classical repertoire. However, I think these can be applied to whatever style of music we choose to play, where if these were , say, focused on the blues or rock or boogie woogie, the techniques may not be as readily transferable. I doubt there are such in-depth technique studies of this nature in those realms anyway. I think that for those of us who enjoy playing contemporary instrumental piano, these techniques will be equally applicable as they are to classical music. I don't intend to post about specifics as I go through these, because it will take quite a bit of time to watch them and then to really make use of what I am seeing and hearing. If anybody else gets these DVDs and wants to start a discussion thread, I would be willing to participate in it. Here are the DVD contents from the Taubman site ( www.taubman-tapes.com/Home.html): Presentations By Edna Golandsky Master Classes By Dorothy Taubman Note: All demonstrations are conducted on the piano. It is recommended that pianists study volumes 1-10 and other musicians study volumes 1-5. Volume 1: Introductory Principles and Concepts Principles of coordinate movement Mechanics of the piano The leverage system The muscles involved in piano playing Finger movements analyzed How to determine height of bench Cause of injuries An evaluation of exercises Master class: Liszt Sonetto del Petrarca #104 Volume 2: Forearm Rotation Why "forearm rotation" for finger work, speed Double rotation and single rotation Use of the thumb in the Taubman Technique Forearm rotation in scales, chords, arpeggios, repeated notes, double thirds Working with the injured pianist Tobias Matthay and forearm rotation Volume 3: In-and-Out Arm Movements In-and-Out Arm Movements Backward and Forward Shifts -for different finger lengths -from white to black key area, vice versa Forearm rotation combined with in & out arm movements Scales & arpeggios Solution for wide fingers in black key area Double note tremolos Volume 4: The Walking Arm & Hand Movements Lateral and vertical forearm adjustment Synchronization of fingers, hand and forearm Forearm and hand weight for chords Legato chords and intervals Negotiating distances Combining walking arm with rotation Broken octaves Alternating from double intervals or chords to single notes Volume 5: Shaping and Octaves Shaping to combine all movements via curvilinear motion Technical and interpretive aspects of shaping Handling chords, intervals, legato and dynamics Rotation and octaves Free fall and rebound of forearm Legato and speed in octaves Master Class Excerpt: Schubert, A Major Posthumous Sonata Volume 6: Grouping How principles of grouping can help organize passages for ease of execution Grouping to avoid stretching Grouping for different densities of notes Grouping to facilitate changes of direction Grouping to facilitate leaps with complex metric designs Grouping for long running passages Master Class: Dorothy Taubman Volume 7: Leaps How to play leaps that don't miss Legato leaps Staccato leaps Minimizing the distance of a leap When both hands must leap at the same time Repeated leaps Master Class: Dorothy Taubman Volume 8: Interdependence Interdependence vs. Independence of the hands Pitfalls of practicing the hands separately Vertical learning and horizontal learning Interdependence of Rotation, In & Out movements and Shaping Alternating hands Security in complex metric designs Timing broken chords and ornaments Playing legato in one hand and staccato in the other Memorization: -Different components involved in memorizing -Causes for memory slips -Explanation and instructions for security in memorizing Volume 9: Fingering What is a good fingering and why Fingering to place you at the best advantage for fluent execution of passage How to avoid fingering that causes stretching, twisting, or crowding When and why to redistribute a passage between the two hands Avoiding the pitfalls of some traditional dogmas Master Class: Dorothy Taubman Volume 10: Tone, Legato, and Enslavement to Notation Uses and misuses of legato Does physical legato always lead to musical legato? how to make octaves, chords, and stretchy passages that cannot be physically connected sound connected Role of shaping and pedaling in legato playing Physical components of ton production Interpreting the score to realize the composer's intention How musical results depend on technical means Master Class: Dorothy Taubman Tony
Last edited by TonyB; 02/12/16 01:24 PM.
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