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Topic Options
#2506881 - 02/03/16 12:34 PM Kawai CN35 string resonance
uci Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/17/16
Posts: 7
Loc: Europe
Hello everyone,

I have received my Kawai CN35 digital piano from thomann.de . Nice sound and very distinctive. Still in the process of accommodating myself with the instrument (and the sound smile ). It seems to be suited for classical music, but not pop/rock.

However, I discovered something interesting regarding string resonance. It happens on two neighborhood keys. Lets say, middle C with C#. And is very pronounced. More pronounced than other harmonic string resonance documended in the manual. Is this normal behavior in an acoustic?

I just tested this on a small and old acoustic piano at the school and didn't notice something similar. Indeed some keys resonate, but never two neighborhood keys.

I do not have a piano education. I'm looking forward for your advice. Thanks.

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#2506904 - 02/03/16 02:25 PM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
mike32 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/28/16
Posts: 6
You'll have to wait for someone more educated in string resonance, but I was just going to say you might try turning off all effects and then turning them on one by one to verify that it is indeed the string resonance causing this. If you find it to be annoying, you can always disable that effect - also I think some people find certain tones on a keyboard too loud or too soft so I know you can also adjust the volume of individual notes if that's the case.

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#2506944 - 02/03/16 04:50 PM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 746
Originally Posted By uci
Hello everyone,

I have received my Kawai CN35 digital piano from thomann.de . Nice sound and very distinctive. Still in the process of accommodating myself with the instrument (and the sound smile ). It seems to be suited for classical music, but not pop/rock.

However, I discovered something interesting regarding string resonance. It happens on two neighborhood keys. Lets say, middle C with C#. And is very pronounced. More pronounced than other harmonic string resonance documended in the manual. Is this normal behavior in an acoustic?

I just tested this on a small and old acoustic piano at the school and didn't notice something similar. Indeed some keys resonate, but never two neighborhood keys.

I do not have a piano education. I'm looking forward for your advice. Thanks.



My Kawai ES6 did that. I too tried to replicate it on an acoustic. I did not notice it when playing only testing.

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#2506979 - 02/03/16 07:26 PM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Charles Cohen Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 2463
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
However, I discovered something interesting regarding string resonance. It happens on two neighborhood keys. Lets say, middle C with C#. And is very pronounced. More pronounced than other harmonic string resonance documended in the manual. Is this normal behavior in an acoustic?


Can you describe, _exactly_, what you do to make this "string resonance" happen?

You might just be hearing "beating", which is a different effect altogether. And it's normal, for both DP's and acoustic pianos.

Thanks --
_________________________
. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / ZXA1 speaker

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#2507002 - 02/03/16 09:13 PM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: Charles Cohen]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 746
Originally Posted By Charles Cohen
Quote:
However, I discovered something interesting regarding string resonance. It happens on two neighborhood keys. Lets say, middle C with C#. And is very pronounced. More pronounced than other harmonic string resonance documended in the manual. Is this normal behavior in an acoustic?


Can you describe, _exactly_, what you do to make this "string resonance" happen?

You might just be hearing "beating", which is a different effect altogether. And it's normal, for both DP's and acoustic pianos.

Thanks --



Resonance gets triggered on depressed note half a step away

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#2507061 - 02/04/16 02:50 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: Charles Cohen]
uci Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/17/16
Posts: 7
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By Charles Cohen
Can you describe, _exactly_, what you do to make this "string resonance" happen?


Here is a WAV recording you can download below. You should listen at high volume.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_B69Ned3mTiTjMzSnpuc3JmSEE

Keys involved:

middle C - always pressed (this is the key that you hear resonate)
C#, next C up - alternatively hit

The string resonance is there, but more pronounced for C#. I'm wondering if a good acoustic behaves like this.

My piano settings is factory default (string resonance = 5). I have the last OS update (v1.07).

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#2507378 - 02/04/16 10:14 PM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Charles Cohen Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 2463
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
I tried an acoustic grand today. Held down middle C, struck C# . . .

. . . no resonance at all.
_________________________
. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / ZXA1 speaker

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#2507417 - 02/05/16 02:07 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: Charles Cohen]
uci Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/17/16
Posts: 7
Loc: Europe
Thanks Charles for confirmation. So, is this phenomenon specific to Kawai grands (from where samples are recorded) or is a software bug in Kawai digitals? Can someone test this on other digital brands?

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#2507425 - 02/05/16 02:49 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Hendrik42 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 510
Loc: Germany
So I checked on my CN35 today and, yes, C# resonates significantly against silently-pressed C. That it does that is documented in the CN35 handbook. Other DP vendors do not document their string resonance like that at all.

I'd need to check an acoustic against this C/C# specifically, but in an acoustic there is always resonance. Of course with some notes it is more pronounced and with others less so, but there is always something. This is why I am so impressed by the new Rolands which also model the faint resonance you get with D against silent pressed C, where this is not implemented on the CN35 (see documentation or just listen).
_________________________
Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)

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#2507430 - 02/05/16 03:36 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Garf Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/14
Posts: 91
I just tried this with Pianoteq 5. If there's resonance between C and C# then it must be very quiet and I can't really hear it. (Same for C and D)

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#2507437 - 02/05/16 04:15 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: Hendrik42]
peterws Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4957
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By Hendrik42
So I checked on my CN35 today and, yes, C# resonates significantly against silently-pressed C. That it does that is documented in the CN35 handbook. Other DP vendors do not document their string resonance like that at all.

I'd need to check an acoustic against this C/C# specifically, but in an acoustic there is always resonance. Of course with some notes it is more pronounced and with others less so, but there is always something. This is why I am so impressed by the new Rolands which also model the faint resonance you get with D against silent pressed C, where this is not implemented on the CN35 (see documentation or just listen).


Youd need to test this against the Kawai that it came from originally. That might not be so easy. . . !
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2507653 - 02/05/16 04:38 PM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: peterws]
Charles Cohen Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 2463
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
I tried my teacher's upright acoustic. Hold downmiddle C, strike C#:

. . .C resonates (at its own pitch, not on C#).

So it depends on the piano.

EDIT: I just checked Pianoteq. The "U4" has a light resonance on C, when I strike C#. The "[Steinway] B" and "D4" have no resonance between C and C#.

I assume that the Pianoteq crew developed their models from testing real pianos. I'm inclined to agree with a comment above -- the piano Kawai sampled for the CN35 probably had the resonance, and they copied it more-or-less accurately.

In which case, it's certainly not a "bug", and not exactly a "feature"; maybe call it "character" ?





Edited by Charles Cohen (02/05/16 07:07 PM)
_________________________
. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / ZXA1 speaker

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#2507841 - Yesterday at 08:04 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: Charles Cohen]
uci Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/17/16
Posts: 7
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By Charles Cohen
In which case, it's certainly not a "bug", and not exactly a "feature"; maybe call it "character" ?


A "feature", "character" or build "artifact", whatever you call it, I think that it contributes to a less cleaner sound of the piano. I'm talking here strictly about resonances of two neighborhood strings. Is this a characteristic of Kawai acoustics?

I don't want to disable string resonance in my piano, since resonances associated with other harmonics are very nice indeed.

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#2507873 - Yesterday at 10:10 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Bellicapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/15
Posts: 171
Loc: Tuscany Italy
On my ca63 every flat note resonates to the related sharp one, not just c.


Edited by Bellicapelli (Yesterday at 10:12 AM)
_________________________
Kawai Ca63 - yamaha motif07 - Korg01fd

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#2508097 - Today at 12:37 AM Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Charles Cohen Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 2463
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By uci
Originally Posted By Charles Cohen
In which case, it's certainly not a "bug", and not exactly a "feature"; maybe call it "character" ?


A "feature", "character" or build "artifact", whatever you call it, I think that it contributes to a less cleaner sound of the piano. I'm talking here strictly about resonances of two neighborhood strings. Is this a characteristic of Kawai acoustics?

I don't want to disable string resonance in my piano, since resonances associated with other harmonics are very nice indeed.


One complaint against DP's is that they're "too clean". It was something I noticed immediately when I got my PX-350.

So Kawai tried to duplicaate the sound of a acoustic piano, and did a nice job of it. I'm afraid that "less cleaner sound" is what they were aiming for.

I'm going to have to try a CN35 -- there may be one in town. It will be interesting . . .
_________________________
. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / ZXA1 speaker

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#2508128 - 15 minutes 52 seconds ago Re: Kawai CN35 string resonance [Re: uci]
Hendrik42 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 510
Loc: Germany
There is this very simple "string resonance test", which they like to show on the new Rolands: you place your whole underarm on the lower keys, but slowly, so you silent-press them. Then you play a few notes on the middle or high keys and listen...

On the CN35 you get some string resonance. On other brands you get less, same or (only on the new Rolands afaik) more.

Then do that on an acoustic...

Given that CN25/CN35 are from 2014 and given their price point, I am fine. The next model needs to be on par with 2015 Roland, though.

Anyone can (re)play a clean note. Getting it right in resonances is the new frontier.
_________________________
Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)

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