Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Which Kawai DP between $3000 - $5000?

Hi
I'm from Australia and looking for a high-end digital piano. I tried a few today - and was quoted:
CA97 - $4,500
ca95 - $3,500
CA67 - $3,200
cs10 - $4,995
cs7 - $3,890
Which would you buy?
I had my heart set on polished ebony (because it made me *feel* like I was playing an acoustic), but prefer to get Kawai's newer models. so I'm stuck - do I wait till Kawai update the cs7/cs10, go with the older versions (cs7/cs10) or forgoe the polished ebony (cs67/cs97)? Given the price difference in all of these, what would you choose? I'd prefer to spend less rather than more but am only going to buy a DP once ....

(btw, I have tried and don't like rolands, but am also considering the Yamaha 545 or 575 which fall into the same price bracket)

CA97 no doubt if you have money
- Superior samples and sound
- Superior action
- Superior speaker system

Ebony looks nice, but it doesn't improve a piano... Besides, CA97 in rosewood looks very nice and traditional.

A 67 would be enough for me. That thing about the ressonance acoustic system in the 97... well at 1300$ extra is not for me,even if I could afford it (i would go then to a real acoustic piano)

@Snail I would respectfully disagree. CA67 is good enough but if money is not an issue it's totally worth it to pay for CA97. The sound system is substantially better and sounds much more natural.

Among Kawai models I would agree with alerique and go for CA-97. CA-67 is an option only if you will mostly play the piano with headphones, in my "humble" opinion.

All the best

Semih

P.S. The price is in Australian Dollars or USD? In Europe one can buy CA-97 for 2950-3226 Euro

Having owned the 63, 93 and 95, and fiddled with the 67 and 97, the 67 has a better speaker system than the 63/65 did. The 97 is about the same.

If, you had a nice room, a 67 and 97 side by side. A few of your neighbors over. Played some really complicated scores. Then asked them if the 67 or the 97 sounded better? They couldn't tell. Imho ...

But, you could. The soundboard may 'fill' the room because of its nature, but so will the 67. You, will have the tactile feedback the soundboard creates and have better bragging rights.

Also, the 67 has an upper unit, and the frame that separates and is easier to move from place to place. The 97, is a killer. One piece. Heavy, no place to grab in the back and you will need two men to move it.

I own a CA-97. Honestly if I did it again I would get the CA-67. The speakers are way to much for my house. The volume is never past 10% up from the bottom. It sounds wonderful though. Just keep that in mind before buying it. Now if I was buying one for a small church or bar I would get the CA-97. I absolutely love mine. I cannot say enough good things about it. I mainly practice with a headset.

Are you serious with the 10%? How hard are you hitting those keys? That isn't even a single dot! I would say that you would have to set it at least to 60% to emulate the volume of an acoustic upright. I usually have it at about 75%, to be closer to the volume of an acoustic grand. Anything below 50% will ruin your ability to play p and pp, if you ever want to play on an acoustic again.

For OP: I would go for the 67/97 over the CS - the additional SK-EX and SK-5 are worth it, and you even save money.

Regarding 67 or 97, that's personal taste/preference. For me, the better sound of the 97 (and how you feel the vibrations in the keys and pedals) was definitely worth the higher price. Others see this differently, especially if you play mainly with headphones.

Regarding polished ebony: Without me asking/prompting for it, just by discussing the CS10 (which would have been a higher price) the salesperson pointed out that it's a devil to keep clean, especially with children. Which I have. Seeing how many little finger prints I can see on my matte black 97, I'm very glad I don't have polished ebony.

A concert grand would overpower my room.
My CA93 overpowers my room.
I love overpowering my room.

If you listen mostly on headphones and don't play for others, the CA63 is very fine and easier to move... if you play for others, people like me will appreciate the sonic space created by the CA97. It's especially notable if, on occasion, you pull the piano to the middle of the room and people can walk around. The soundboard doesn't just look beautiful, it sounds live, and creates an acoustic ambience of an instrument in the room.

Because of the acoustics - and the change in sound I hear as when I lean in and out, moving my head through the soundfield - I feel like I'm playing a real piano, even though it's not glossy black.

If you use headphones and you'll never take advantage of that, you don't need it... and the piano black does, in fact, look like fine furniture to a lot of people. It's a difficult decision you have ahead of you!

This can't be right. In terms of volume their output is not that much different. CA-97 just sounds crispier and more realistic.

PMFJI (reading specs, not playing, not listening) --

Looking at the specs, the CA67 has 90 watts (total), running through:

. . . 2 x 13cm + 2 x 8x12cm Top Speaker + 2 x 5cm Tweeter

So it's got two 5" (roughly) woofers, and oval top speakers smaller than that.

And the CA97 has 45 watts into the "soundboard transducer", and 90 watts (total) into:

. . . 4 x 7cm Top Speaker and 2 x 1,4cm Dome Tweeter

The CA97 _isn't_ a CA67 with a soundboard added to shake things up for the player. That CA97 soundboard is an integral part of a re-designed amp/speaker system. I don't know what the crossover frequency is, but I suspect Kawai is using the soundboard for a good part of the CA97's bass register.(*)

Whether that difference is worth the difference in price -- that's for each buyer to decide.

(*) My logic here is a bit convoluted:

You cannot get good bass response out of 7 cm loudspeakers -- they're mid-range and higher, for good efficiency. But we know the CA97 sounds fine in the mid-to-low bass.

So the crossover frequency, from soundboard to 7 cm speakers, probably lies around 125 Hz or higher -- one octave below Middle C.

Perhaps KJ can confirm, or perhaps it's "trade secret".

I welcome contrary arguments.

I love this forum. Thank you for your advice.

sempianist - the price is in AUD;
JoBert - I have 3 kids too (1, 5, and 7), so that's a good point.

I love how the ca97 vibrates in my foot on the pedal but I going to be playing at least 50% of the time with headphones when the kids are asleep. That's the main reason I'm getting a DP not an acoustic.

The purpose of the piano is: a) for me to enjoy, b) for my children to learn on, and c) a piece of furniture that I am buying with my grandmother's inheritance. For purpose(b)the ca67 is sufficient, for purpose (c)I prefer to buy the ca97 or cs10, for purpose (a) its a split between ca67 (being sufficient for my level), ca97 (closing my eyes and *feeling* like I am playing an acoustic) and cs10 (opening my eyes and almost believing I am playing an acoustic).

Flip-flopping every hour between the three.....

Can I add a mad option? For $5k you might already get a used K2 with ATX, so a Kawai Upright with the Anytime "silent" digital piano add on. Have a look at the local used piano market.

Be careful if you're thinking of the CA97 as a big speaker behind an amplifier. A crossover network is used if you're sending one signal to multiple transducers (a tweeter, a woofer, perhaps a midrange in between...) I am all but certain that the Kawai approach is to model the soundfield and send independent sound channels to the different active drivers. When you use headphones, it models the sound differently, and outputs it in a way more appropriate for stereo listening.

The soundboard definitely provides a lot of the bass you hear... but a wooden soundboard is also very live at frequencies like 440hz and higher (concert A and up.) I suspect the CA97's soundboard transducer is producing all the frequencies one would expect in an acoustic's soundboard... and whatever the frequency range, I'm quite certain it's modeled directly for the soundboard, as opposed to crossed out from the standard stereo mix.

Interesting discussion.



You're correct in noting that the CA97's speaker system is more than just a CA67 + the soundboard. The CA97/CA67 sales manual explains this point in greater detail, comparing the characteristics of the different speakers used. Unfortunately, I cannot really share this material on the forum publicly.

Kind regards,
James
x

I had a good chance to listen to all CA line in Rose Morris London before buying my CA67, they have an excellent showroom. I'm afraid I'm not nearly qualified enough to follow your logic, but just to share my experience CA67 and CA97 are not terribly different in sheer loudness, but CA97 sounds very noticeably more natural.

Of course they sound exactly the same in headphones.

You're right. My reasoning was probably simplistic -- that is, simpler than the situation required.

There may be a lot of proprietary engineering in the CA97, starting from the sampling process. Too bad the internal sales material isn't public -- it might be enlightening. Or it might show other makers how to copy Kawai!<g>

This discussion is outside my price range . . . I should butt out.

That's about the same headphones/speakers ratio as me. And let me tell you: I cherish the time when I can play without the headphones, because it just feels more "real". 50% of the time with headphones also means that 50% of the time you will be playing without headphones. I think that is a lot of time during which to appreciate the better non-headphones sound.


As some food for thought to help you with the flip-flopping decision (or maybe confuse it even more?):

From what you write above, I sense that you put quite a bit of importance on the authenticity. Therefore, if I were you I would rule out the CA 67. I predict that you would regret it in the long run. Each time you would play without headphones, there would be this melancholic "what if?" in the back of your mind - "Would this now sound better if I had gotten the CA 97 or CS 10?"...

As for the decision between CA 97 and CS 10, I was there myself not so long ago. I too had a longing eye on that "real upright" polished ebony look of the CS 10. In the end though, it seems that I am enough of a techie that I wanted the piano with the latest technology and not the one with the most authentic look.
Especially since in this case, the "latest technology" is not only about features on a specs sheet, but there is an actual difference for the non-techie pianist too: The additional SK-EX and SK-5 instruments in the CA 97. I mentioned these before and I want to mention them again, because I really think these should not be underestimated. If I had gotten the CS 10, I would maybe not be missing the SKs, since I wouldn't know what I'm missing. But now that I have them, I would definitely not want to give them up again. It really adds another layer of enjoyment, that I can select between three main grand piano sounds (plus a few others), depending on my mood and the character of the piece, compared to only one main piano sound (plus a few others) on the CS 10. (And yes, for me at least, there's a noticeable difference in quality between the main piano sounds and the "other" piano sounds - I almost never use the latter for serious playing, but frequently switch between the main three.)

At the end of the day, for me, a piano is an instrument, not a piece of furniture. So with everything else assumed equal, if the decision is between one piano with the better aural features (meaning the additional SKs in this case) and another piano with the nicer optics, the decision becomes a no brainer for me.

But of course, in this case everything else is not exactly equal - most notably the price. And it certainly made the decision easier that the aurally "better" piano was also the cheaper one.

And BTW, getting back to the looks again: Now that I have the CA 97 at home, I must say that it looks very nice too. Only recently I had a friend, who saw it for the first time and had previously only seen my P-115 slab on a keyboard stand, comment something along the lines "well this looks like a real piano now"...

I hope this helps a bit in your decision making process. And I hope that you will get back here to tell us your decision and what your impression is after your piano has been delivered (whichever you decide for).

I haven't heard the CA-97 but I owned the CA-95 for a short while and I was not at all impressed with the sound from the speakers and soundboard. It sounded very boxy to me.

So unless it has improved dramatically in the CA-97, I would suspect that you can get much, much better sound by not using the built-in speaker system but instead use a good pair of speakers (perhaps near field monitors, depending on what you're trying to achieve) and a subwoofer. Sadly, I haven't heard any digital piano regardless of price where the speaker system was up to the task and was a fair match for the quality samples and keyboard action of a an otherwise good DP.

I would much rather buy the CA-67 (or MP-11 or VPC1 or even the CS10) plus a nice separate speaker system.

FWIW, I demoed the CA97 vs the CS10 for a long time and decided on the CS10 as although the samples on the CA97 were slightly better when played side by side I could not tell a difference if I only played one of them cold. So, for me, the authentic look of the CS10 made the experience feel more real than the slightly better sounds of the CA97. I bought the CS10. I should point out that I bought it 6 months ago so was not prepared to wait the best part of a year or more for a CS11 or equivalent but I understand that there are now rumours that there may be new models announced in March/April.

I don't understand what you mean by this. AFAIK, the CA 67/97 has the SK-EX Concert Grand and the SK-5 Chamber Grand in addition to the EX Concert Grand, plus additional ones, while the CS 10 only has the latter (EX) plus the additional ones. So those two additional pianos in the CA 67/97 (SK-EX and SK-5) can't be compared to the CS 10 side-by-side, in the sense of playing the same samples on both, as the latter doesn't even have them. And they sound very much different (from each other and from the EX that the CS 10 has too).

It's not a point of these samples being "better" (in the sense of "better sampled" or something like that), but simply of being different and new, giving more options.

Of course if one is happy with the one main "high quality" EX sample in the CS 10, then that is fine. I also think that I would be happy if I had the CS 10 and never experienced the SK-EX/SK-5 samples (because the EX sample is very nice). But now that I have them, so that I have three "high quality" samples with very different characters, I find that I wouldn't want to miss them again, as I frequently change between them (but very rarely to the other "older" samples that are not of a comparable high quality).

But I realize that I'm starting to sound like a CA 97 evangelist, which is not my intention. I think the CS 10 is a very fine piano too, and the decision between the two is really up to personal preferences. I personally would be happy with either of them. So I'll stop "preaching" now.

Regarding new samples. As an owner of CA-67

It needs to be understood that all three samples - SK-EX, EX and SK-5 are super different in character and even in response to action. They do feel like different instruments. EX is rather bright and very dramatic-sounding grand in my opinion good for big romantic pieces. SK-5, probably due to the small size of the original instrument, is more dusty, muted, lyrical. SK-EX is very grand, just as EX, but much more balanced, not so bright, not so dramatic and not so much in your face.

There's a reason Kawai put SK-EX as default sound. Not only it's new, I think (and it's a matter of preference) it's the most versatile sound with a noble but neutral character that will suit almost any piece of music. Thus I very much advice to try it.

If you like the CS-10
Try Yamahas NU1; perhaps Casio's hybrids also.

As always:
a) Take great headphones with you to compare headphone experience
b) Take laptop with software piano, to compare action and speaker quality

@alerique: IMO, that's a perfect description of the three main pianos in the 67/97.

+1

Well said!

Apologies, I can see how post was unclear. What I meant was that as the SK-EX is a superior acoustic piano to the EX it follows that the sampled SK-EX on the CA97 is a better sounding sample set. Not thay the sampling technology or playback system is better. In this instance, by better sounding I mean that it is more neutral and so more versatile. The EX in the CS10 is a bit overpowering for playing Mozart sonatas, for instance...

Update:
Today I tried the new Roland range. Previously I had ruled out the 500 series but had not seen the new series. I was impressed, especially when comparing to Yamaha, I much preferred the Roland.

So now my decision is this:
Ca67 or hp605 in one price range
Ca97 or lx7 in a much higher price range.
(I have chosen the newer technology rather than the polished ebony in the cs7 or cs10)

I'm only buying this once, so I don't want to regret it. But I'm not professional, I play for enjoyment and being a working mum with 3 kids, that is likely to be 1-2 hours a week. But it's something that my kids 7,5,1 will hopefully learn on.

I'm really stuck on this one.....

I think that any of these four pianos would be a great choice that you would be happy with for a long time. So it really comes down to your personal preference. Seeing that you seem to have the budget for the more expensive options CA97/LX7, I would look at the price last, and would make my decision in this order:

• Select the one with the the best sound and keyboard feeling. Test them as much as you can to develop your preference here, then go for your favorite. Whatever you chose, you can't go wrong. (Of course this one is tricky, if you like the sound of one best, but the keyboard of another. In that case you have to decide which aspect you value more.)
• Only if two are equal in the first respect: Select the one that is nicer looking.
• Only if you still have two that are equal: Select the cheapest one.

When we purchased the CA95 few years ago, we thoroughly tried out the 65 vs 95 - and much preferred the sound of the soundboard over the speakers alone.

One thing to consider, at least in my personal experience, in areas that were quite reflective (hardwood, bare walls, high ceilings), the resonance from the board filled the room quite nicely. Never had to use the 'reverb' function, and the sounds were quite natural and acoustic sounding. Then we had to move the piano room to the family room to make room for our grand - an area which is quite carpeted and heavily furnitured. Now the sound it quite flat and digital-piano like. So depending on the acoustics of your house, it might not really matter if you get the soundboard or not.

Just FYI, I've had a similar experience with a Wurlitzer spinet. It was always just a spinet, but in a larger room with hardwood floors, it sounded lively and bright. Later, in a small carpeted room, it was sounded tinny and dead.

That's why DP's have "brightness" settings -- and multi-band EQ, on the better ones.

If you like the 'proper piano' look of the CS10 but like the newer technology of the new Roland range then you may wish to look at the LX17. It is potentially above your price range but I come back to the point I made earlier about playing a musical instrument being an experience and, in choosing to play the piano, rather than keyboard/synthesiser, we are playing an acoustic instrument. To me that means a digital recreation should look the part for maximum enjoyment. However, I fully accept that many in here see digital pianos as fully fledged instruments in their own right and that pianos such as the CS10, LX17, etc. are just a lot of money on some MDF and paint!

Just saw a Kawai with the Grand Action Feel II. What is different between this and the first keybed model?

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/Features/actions.html

Here's what Kawai James wrote in another thread

I would stop at the CA67 or CLP-575. I do appreciate the manufacturers going that extra step to produce their flagship products, but to me they are expensive proof of concepts than practical. I could tell they are digital pianos blind-folded in an adjacent room if someone else was playing, and if I was playing, there is never any doubt. The simulation is not sufficiently realistic for the price. For me, it's not worth the extra beyond the CA67/CLP-575 at the current technology to price level.

If I could be fooled into thinking it was a real piano, that would be different, even if it was double the price, I would still consider it. That was the reason we got the AvantGrand N3 in 2010 because I couldn't tell it wasn't a real piano in 2010. Now that I could, it's a disappointment because it was so expensive. I still like it as a digital piano, but I wouldn't buy it again probably.

hughconway - the lx17 is out of my price range.

8 Octaves - Ive ruled out CLP's; just dont like the sound. my problem with the ca67 is that I can stretch to the ca97 but would prefer to be stretching to a cs8 (or cs11) - I just dont like the idea of buying outdated technology (i.e. the cs7 or cs10).

James- surely there is some idea when kawai will update these models? if not, then I'm leaning towards to Rolands so I can get it in PE.

Yes, there is, however I'm afraid it's not something that I can openly discuss on a public forum.

The best advice I can offer is to wait and see what happens at the major musical instrument trade shows, such as NAMM (January) and Musikmesse (April).

Kind regards,
James
x

I'm not sure i'd agree with that. For example, the 97 over the 67, is a much more immersive experience. True, you know its not real, but when you feel the bass notes reverberating through the keys and your fingers, room filling sound from strong bass, to delicate high notes, all perfectly in tune. As Slider says in The Matrix, "Ignorance is bliss". I don't regret stretching my budget for a second, and having since played upright acoustics that would have cost multiple times what I paid, and they feel and sound like a disappointment, I wouldn't swap for a second. Unless someone ever offers to buy me a decent acoustic grand of course :-)

If you can comfortably afford a better instrument, then why not enjoy a better experience playing it?

Very jealous of the N3 by the way. I loved the Avantgrand series, but sadly they were outside of the "comfortably afford" category, particularly given the lack of newest samples vs the CLPs (Whose action and headphone sound I did not like at all).

Can someone elaborate.... I have kids, there are fingerprints on the glass and mirrors all over the house but it doesn't bother me too much; is the polished ebony that much harder to maintain? Will it scratch more easily or does the satin finish have other maintenance issues? How much do you think polished ebony will enhance my experience?

I have a DP with a PE finish, probably polyester. When my grandchildren are over it gets covered in finger marks. The recommended cleaning is water via chamois or microfibres cloth dried off with a microfibres cloth. This works just fine. The difficulty is dust, which is noticeable, especially in bright light and sunlight. I'm slightly OCD about some things but have learned to ignore the dust. I use a microfibres dust thingy, it's not a cloth, maybe once a month. You have to be sure not to scratch the PE finish when you do dust the piano, or teeny weeny myriad scratches which you don't initially notice, will one day be noticed, again on bright light or sunlight usually at an angle. If you have kids, then a rule about no banging, no toys or other hard things on the surface, maybe wash your hands if you remember, and then ignore the finger marks and dust except once a week/month when it gets cleaned. ...and enjoy it's an instrument first.

Only _you_ can answer this. It's not going to affect the sound at all. So I'd re-phrase it:

. . . How much are you willing to pay (in money, and time, and trouble)
. . . to have a DP that looks like what you think a piano is
. . . _supposed to_ look like?