Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner First time playing Bach - ornaments and rubato?

I've never played any Bach before, so I'd like to tackle a couple of inventions to ease into his keyboard works. Does anyone have a good resource for learning the accepted way of playing the ornaments that appear (both what notes a mordent/trill/etc. indicates, and where they're played in relation to the beat)?

Also, what's the deal with rubato in Bach?

Lastly, how are dynamics treated on a modern piano?

In the Alfred masterwork edition Selections from Anna Magdalena's Notebook, there is an introduction that covers playing ornamentations in Bach's work, and some comments in general about such things as tempo and phrasing.

In the Alfred Masterwork Edition of the Two-Part Inventions (ed. Willard A. Palmer) there is a good introduction to the execution of ornaments in the keyboard works of Bach. It includes explanations with examples of 17 different ornaments used in Bach's keyboard works.

Furthermore, in this particular edition Palmer writes out above the score the note-by-note execution of each ornament wherever it occurs in the score. That saves you looking back to the introduction each time an ornament comes up.

There are those who eschew the use of rubato in Bach, while there are others who find the music of Bach so full of emotion that they use extensive rubato. I think that there is a happy medium somewhere between the two. I certainly do not think that Bach's works should be played with metronomic precision.

There are some who advocate terraced dynamics while playing Bach on a modern piano; there are others who say that one should profit from the full resources of the modern piano and use expressive dynamics wherever one feels the need. Much of that should be up to the performer.

Regards,

As others have said the ornaments are easy (to learn, not necessarily to play). Rubato is a different story. We are two and a half centuries removed from Bach. In the interim we've had the light elegance of classical period, sturm and drang of the romantic period (which has never completely left us) and also post romantic and modern music. Each uses rubato differently.

Bach composed the inventions as a teaching tool, so you'll benefit from trying to learn each piece as the composer intended. That means in the learning phase minimal rubato will allow you to acquire the dexterity these pieces demand. Once you've conquered the technical aspects of the pieces you can consider adding a touch of rubato for dramatic effect. In general I don't believe these pieces need much, but there are a few spots where it's appropriate (e.g. bar 49 of the d minor, the deceptive cadence).

What we know about Bach's ornaments is gleaned from C.P.E. Bach's table of ornaments. I'm pretty sure what you will find in editions will be the same as this: http://www.pennuto.com/music/jsb_ornm.htm As modern interpreters I think we take a literal approach to it - we see an ornament in the score we play it. In their time there was likely a lot of flexibility and the player would likely omit written ornaments and/or add their own.

As for aspects of interpretation with respect to dynamics and rubato? Well there about as many strong opinions about how Bach should be performed as there are players. Your best bet is to listen to a wide variety of interpretations and find what you like. Early music harpsichordists in particular play with the rhythms and pulse a lot more because they don't have dynamics for expression. This kind of thing doesn't translate to piano as well but may open your eyes/ears to what is possible. Baroque music is often either dance music or song so make yourself aware of which it is in the music you are playing.

Thanks for the help everyone. I definitely feel less lost now.

Re rubato and dynamics.

You know, I'm sure, that Bach didn't mark up his music, it was up to the musician to play it how they saw fit and assumed that they knew how to play it "properly".

I have struggled over this. I wanted to play my Invention 14 like Glenn Gould, but my teacher said no. No sculpting, no crescendos, no diminuendos, no rits or ralls... only terraces of sounds (ie dramatic changes in volume) and definitely NO RUBATO.

I have changed teacher. He says "play it how you want. As long as you can show me that you *understand* the music and *why* you are playing it like that, play it how you want".

His take is that the piano is a modern instrument and surely, if Bach had access to a piano he would have played it to its fullest capabilities.

On IMSLP you can find some editions of the Bach inventions marked up by Clementi. These are useful for understanding how "modern" musicians saw fit to interpret baroque on a piano. Then, perhaps tone it down a notch or two (they did go a bit OTT). Listen to lots of different versions and decide how you want it to sound.

What would your second last teacher say about Tzimon Barto's 2015 recording of the Goldberg Variations?

http://oe1.orf.at/programm/428130

The Music Link below should be working until Sat, 5.March 2016
http://oe1.orf.at/konsole?show=onde...;load_day=/programm/konsole/tag/20160227

BTW: Barto is nearly an anagramm of r(u)bato.

You have to make the distinction whether or not you want to approach Bach on the piano as played on the harpsichord or some sort of more "pianistic" interpretation of it.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the "No rubato". Seriously.

The harpsichord has an incredibly small dynamic range.
The harpsichord does not have the ability to produce the different shades of articulation or colour compared to the piano. The harpsichord does have a greater difference between registers compared to the piano.

The real way which a harpsichordist has to create different colours is by the extensive use of rubato.

Also another big issue which profoundly annoys me with people playing harpsichord music on the piano, is the fact that it is always played either far too slow or far too fast. The harpsichord doesn't have the sustaining ability to sustain the notes for very long nor does it have the ability to speak every note when it is played very fast.