Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Do Musical Grades Matter?

Hi there
I'm in my final year at university and I'm writing my dissertation on the advantages and disadvantages of grades and was wondering if anyone would be willing to comment on their personal teaching/studying experiences and how it affected them musically.
So, some general questions I would like to ask are:
· Positive and negative affects the grading system has on a typical learner?
· Do grades result in a competitive arena and is this right?
· Should music be measured?
· Should we use grades to define skills?
Or anything similar to these are welcomed.
Thank you in advance.

This is not an answer to your question, as I'm just a novice, not a teacher. However, I am intrigued at the topic.

In my personal experience, music was taught in public elementary school and middle school. Virtually everyone I knew took music at those grades. In high school, you could select band or orchestra as optional electives. I didn't, because I thought you had to audition for those classes or knew how to play an instrument other than the piano beforehand or took private music lessons. Music seemed like an easy A. It was also a fun class to take, because I got the chance to experiment on the guitar, watch musical movies, and best of all, sing along to country songs. The middle school music teacher seemed to have a lot of patriotic songs and country songs.

For the piano lessons I took as a kid, they were all not graded. It was just a matter of playing a particular piece to proficiency, playing with style, and moving onto the next piece to increase one's repertoire.

Congrats on you meeting your educational goals!

This is just my opinion, I'm not an expert or anything.

I think of grades, and degrees as commodities. Learning and education are not. Learning can certainly take place outside of the traditional classroom/school.

In our society you earn a diploma or a degree to prove that you know something and have achieved a certain level of competence. Some rubric must be established in order to show that the standards of competence have been met so that the degree can be issued. This system of learning and being aware qualifying documents usually take place inside a classroom or other educational institution.

Therefore, I think grades matter in as much as you need to gain a degree to establish your competence in a given discipline to secure a job.

In my experience as a classroom teacher grades matter a lot to students who wish to get into good universities. The end game for them (and their parents) is securing a good paying job. When I was teaching a different population who expectations were not that they would go to university grades mattered very little or not at all.

I do not use grades with my private piano students as they carry no weight. I have tried this in the past but found the grading in-effictive. Your could fail piano lessons but who cares it doesn't count.

As for music, the world is changing, I am seeing some of young people circumvent going to college altogether and pursue their musical education by studying with master teachers, online learning, and participation in ensembles. They are also gaining teacher training through non-traditional avenues. Thus, avoiding the debt associated with tuition.

In my opinion, in music it is fairly easy to determine a persons level of competence. It usually comes down to "can you play it"? I know many great musicians without degrees and many great ones with degrees. Although I do believe the the work and discipline one needs to attain a degree has great value for two reasons. firstly it is difficult to match those four to eight years of intensive study outside of the university environment. Secondly having a degree shows a great level of focus and perseverance.

Just my opinion, I took a course on this in Grad school. It was pretty interesting.

Best wishes,

Doreen

The OP has not made a distinction between grade systems like ABRSM or RCM, and letter grades for performance in a class, usually A - F in the US.

I think some kids would take piano more seriously and actually do their homework (practicing) if they got a letter grade like they do for math. It might make piano seem less optional.

But, it might not be a large percentage of kids.

Grades (A, B, C - 75% etc.) and also the means for obtaining grades (tests) fulfill an institutional needs: you have thousands of students who needed to be shunted from school year to school year, and into "academic / vocational etc. streams" and some way of putting order into these masses of people. A teacher with 30 students may want to get an idea of what she has been teaching by seeing what percentage of the students "got" most of what she taught in one area, and where she might have to reinforce part. Even in a classroom situation with lots of kids, teachers are aware of the weaknesses of these systems. Our professors in teachers college, teaching veterans themselves, warned us against it. Why adopt something in one-on-one teaching that one would love to avoid even in the classroom?

Still in a classroom setting, in many schools there are "anecdotal report cards" where the teacher describes the child's progress in words. Essentially this is an attempt to get closer to what might happen in one-on-one, and it gets at the important things which cannot be measured in numbers.

Aiming for grades takes focus away from the subject, exploring the subject, being interested in and engrossed in the subject - when it's music then that is really too bad. Plus, music is not like arithmetic with a finite set of things that must be memorized. It is also an art. A teacher's freedom to teach fully also becomes restricted, with an emphasis on those things that "can be measured" (thanks to a composer and teacher whose works are used in exams, who first pointed this out - the "can be measured").

And finally, in music study a student finally has a chance to explore and learn without his sense of self-worth being reduced to a measurement in numbers, which does so much harm in the school system that most children spent the bulk of their hours in for much of the day.

Just for the fun of it: :)Turning this around to math. I've tutored quite a few students who were having problems in math. Very often their main problem was that they were afraid of giving the wrong answer, saying anything that the teacher didn't want to hear - but more than that, they had turned off their autonomous thinking. The subject did not "belong to them". The same kid who could do the most complex calculations in the schoolyard when negotiation playing cards or computer game trades, could not do much simpler calculations in schoolwork. Often they were the same calculations. If you started to grade the kids on what they did in the schoolyard or on the street with their friends, would they start doing just as badly?

The trouble is that in a sense you are right, because kids are so used to doing things for grades and working hard on the threat of poor grades, that grades might get kids to practice who wouldn't practice otherwise. So I end up also agreeing with you.

Most kids who do their homework pass math. A miniscule percentage might come to enjoy it and an even smaller percentage might make it a career. But most of them can be functional.

Could piano be similar? If we got more of them to do there homework/practicing, might more of them become functional? And once they have some basic skills, might more of them develop a passion for it, or at least an interest?

It sounds like we're restricting the opportunity to develop basic skill to those few who are genuinely interested and completely self motivated. That may be more elitist than is necessary.

This is a very cool thought, TimR.

It is so sad that music and art have been expunged from most primary and middle school public school curricula in the U.S. and Canada. It seems to exist now only as an option.

Having a functional knowledge of many things -music, art, dance, sports- taught as a part of the daily in-school learning could add significantly to one's quality of life and a greater appreciation by everyone of other people's differing talents and accomplishments.

I don't disagree with your statement per se. But, as a person living in a part of the world where many (if not most) people who learn to play an instrument are graded on their progress, I'm not sure there are that many more of us here with basic musical skills than in the US (or Canada, where I know keystring hails from). Note that I say this despite the fact that basic musical literacy is considered something every secondary school graduate should have, which means we have government-mandated attainment targets on musical literacy for both primary and secondary school.

I get the impression from my own teaching (secondary school math and social studies, not piano) that grades not only don't help intrinsic motivation, but actually decrease it (an observation, by the way, which would seem to be backed up by research on the matter). Under the influence of grading, the orientation of many students seems to shift somewhere along the way from genuine curiosity about the subject matter in and of itself, to the best way to obtain a good grade. By the time they get to high school, some will not even bother completing an assignment, unless not completing it would have a direct and significant impact on their grade. Your solution seems to be: well, then let's just make sure *everything* is tied into their grade. But obtaining good grades is not, or in my opinion certainly shouldn't be, the primary purpose of learning to play an instrument.

If I were convinced that grading students on their musical progress is actually a good way to impart basic musical literacy on greater numbers of people, I might be willing to overlook the fact that grading, for many, destroys intrinsic motivation over time. However, like I said, I live in a place where grading people on their musical skills is a pretty common practice, and from what I'm seeing, it's not much better a system than what happens elsewhere in the world. Hundreds of thousands of former music students here are now grown-ups who have pretty much forgotten everything they ever learned about music, because they never use it in their adult lives.

In my opinion, the only way to make sure people keep whatever skill you teach them is to (a) teach something essential for survival or employability (basic arithmetic to primary school kids, say, or functional literacy to recent immigrants, or anatomy and physiology to future surgeons), or to (b) impart genuine passion for the subject matter you are teaching. In the latter scenario, I am not at all convinced grading will help.

I guess you could argue that grades don't help motivate kids for any subject, whether it's music, history or math. I don't know if there's anything to that or not.

I do think the fact of having a grade tends to help label a subject as serious or not. My kids took their homework very seriously and stayed up late making sure it was completed long after I was ready to say "enough, settle for a B." <smiley> I don't think they were intrinsically interested in many of those subjects nor were they focused on getting the grade, they just seemed to feel an obligation to do what they were supposed to.

For me, it's never been the grade (or lack thereof) that determined my interest in completing a given assignment. Either I considered the task itself interesting and worth doing on its own merits, or I respected the teacher enough not to want to disappoint him/her, or my parents showed me by example how important they considered this stuff, and so I did what they expected of me because of that. The latter, for me, was especially true of music.

Emily,
I have my doubts that this will be a good topic for a dissertation. People's views of grades have a lot to do with the grades they achieved. I still remember most of my grades going as far back as high school. I loved school and worked hard for every teacher.

What will your thesis prove? That some people like working for grades and others don't.

Instead I suggest some alternate subjects:
1) What would be the most expedient way to become a concert pianist?
2) How can musicians improve their incomes now and in the future?
3) What is most needed in the transmission of classical music to our young?

Can you choose a different topic? The idea of "grades" sends signals 50 different directions. Are you talking about report card grades? Or just a percentage score you get at, say, an evaluation? The topic can get very messy and hard to focus.

I can't change my topic now it's a good topic that I've had many passionate responses from. The OP is really for instrument grades so ABRSM or Trinity but it works hand in hand with school grades also.

It's great to see a response from the OP. Sometimes we get a "drive-by" and never hear back, after generating a long thread of thoughtful commentary.

I would suggest a couple things when writing your dissertation.

If you are going to consider more than one definition of grades, where one is a level and another is an evaluation metric, be completely clear. Separate the sections or otherwise distinguish the discussion.

Secondly, if English is your first language, then have someone proofread for you. Your writing does not flow as I would expect it in a formal paper. (Of course if you're writing in a second language, then that does not apply, and I congratulate you for doing so well.)

I have a feeling Emily's "dissertation" is just an end-of-year final paper, not a 400-page publishable major opus. She's going to do fine just summarizing some ardent replies and sifting through them for ideas pro and con.

The year in question is the final university year, and usually that final paper does have some importance. Emily did not say that it was a Masters or PhD thesis so I wouldn't imagine published and hundreds of pages, but it also would not have the same weight as a major essay written in the first or second year of college. Some good and helpful points have been made. I think that usually a student is assigned an academic advisor for these papers (?).

Tim, as trivial as it may seem, the suggestion for a proofreader seems a good one, because these "minor" things can nonetheless leave an immediate impression.

I agree that proof-reading is an important part of the preparation of any public document.

That being said, the OP is likely of the generation that uses smart phones and short-hand style compositional techniques well suited to small touch screens and private conversations. Why put in commas, if the casual readers is able to infer their existance and position?

I hope you realize that most academic papers require a somewhat more rigorous approach than the one you seem to be describing here. Aggregating passionate responses from random strangers on the internet, who may or may not actually know what they are talking about, generally does not qualify as academic research.

Of course, I don't know what else you've done. It may be that you've already reviewed existing scientific literature on your topic of interest, that in your own mind you have clearly defined the relevant terms (such as 'grades'), and that you've settled on a research design in which we could be considered something of a focus group. Is that what's happening here?

Probably so, and that's why I made the comment.

The run-on sentences and other evidence of poor writing ability are meaningless in casual forum conversation. However, the OP is working on a formal paper as some kind of culminating event project, and these then become very meaningful. Emily may very well need some assistance in producing a polished product.

I was trying to avoid being offensive while at the same time pointing out some need for improvement.

This is an international list and English is not always the poster's primary language. In those cases I'm in awe of the ability to converse in another language, something few of us in the US have, and would never complain about a grammar or spelling error.

Most universities have a set of standards for this, but regrettably a few don't, and then there are some on-line diploma mills that take your money and give you a degree. We'll hope she attends a reputable one.

Of course you'll get "passionate responses" if you one of those loaded buzzwords like "grades." It's a word to which people tend to have strong and biased opinions.

Maybe it's a difference of culture, but I don't think you see the difference between school grades (academic, GPA, this will get you into college) versus evaluation grades (non-academic, extracurricular activity). The former carries much weight and forces students to do things against their will. But I think the latter is what you are after.

Emily, as you probably realised (="realized" in USA-speak ), this is an American forum and most posters here have no experience of ABRSM/Trinity grades, and don't know people who have done them. (And those that do tend to despise them because they have their own pet 'assessment system' like Guild or CM which is, of course, far superior to the venerable and ancient ABRSM ).

The Canadian RCM grades that some people here are familiar with differs in many aspects from the ABRSM ones, not least in its requirement for students to play pieces from memory. To non-musicians, this may seem an unimportant difference, but to those who've done exams, this makes a huge impact on how you approach the exams. Nerves become a huge factor when you have to play from memory (- personally, I'd never have done music exams if I had to play my pieces from memory; the ABRSM strives to minimise [= "minimize"] the effects of nerves on exam results), so, if you're going to include N. American grades in your dissertation, I'd mention that too.

To get a British perspective, you could post the same question in the ABRSM forum: http://www.abrsm.org/forum/

I was thinking something similar. The older generation (of which I am part) often wrongly concludes that the younger generation is less skilled in language use, because of what they see in writing (posted). But often it is more a conscious choice of language register to suit the occasion. However, when Tim expressed his concern I went back to look at the original post. The one that concerned me was the use of "affect" (noun) instead of "effect", which is a tricky one that does not involve punctuation.

I am English. I obviously write differently on a forum than how I write my dissertation. I'm using a forum to gather case studies to back up previous evidence that I have collected. I also have a tutor that will briefly proof read my paper! This is my final year dissertation I was just trying to find some teachers that would be able to give me a first hand view of grades. Also when I first joined this group I did not know it was mainly American! However any kind of advice would have been helpful rather than being patronised.

Emily, I hope you don't feel we all have patronized you.

It is an unfortunate part of an on-line forum that, in our attempts to be brief, and, without the benefit of observing body language, we often come across as rude, offensive, patronizing, and snobbish.

For my part, I apologize to you for any offense I may have committed, and I wish you well in your research.

^ What he said.

Guilty.

However, in my defense, I was trying to be courteous to someone who seemed very young.

So here, I'll be direct and not patronizing, while still trying to avoid being rude.

Your first post created two impressions.

The first was content related. You did not distinguish between different uses of the term grade. This lack of clarity in description and perhaps in thinking about the subject caused the wide variety of responses. Your explanation in the Piano Forum that it was really Trinity/ABSRM type grades did not come until late in page 3, and we saw even more confusion there. We went all directions based on our own pet opinions. Those who love grade level systems defended them vigorously, while those who are opposed to grade evaluation systems made their points.

The second impression was of a very limited writing style. Of course we make exceptions for casual conversation, even more so if posting from a phone, but that didn't seem to be the case here. Your posts on the Piano Forum are more evidence.

There is a reason for punctuation. It makes your message more readable, and shows respect for your reader. That, of course, is a comment I would not have made had you not asked for help on a writing assignment!

Finally, we hope you stay around and become part of one of the communities here, after your homework is done.

It is mainly American, but not only, Emily.

I'm Greek and I got my PhD in the UK (and actually living in London right now).

So... from my point of view (and let the rant begin)!

I find that ABRSM is by large destroying the music education here in the UK. I've never met a parent who is not SO hooked up with exams, and I can take them further from the three pieces offered in the syllabus! Even those who do, always have a close eye about when the cutoff date is, etc...

But that's not all.

Additionally I find that in order to grade anything you need to have some sort of a standard marking system in order to do so! In music things are (or should be) a bit more open minded. It's SO darn difficult to compose with grading in mind, since they seem to concentrate on the technical issues. But music is so much more than that.

On the other hand, if ABRSM and Trinity and RCM offer a chance for the kids to study more, then good for them! It's just that it can be SO restrictive that I can't say that I enjoy that. (Let alone trying to persuade anyone to try my music for a change! )

EDIT. BTW, and rather important for your research. IF you find the ABRSM forums and go in the composition forum, the only thread alive, is by me and it's going for the past week to 6 pages and counting! It's about the GSCEs so it's rather close to home I'd say... Check it out, or even better, post there for a biased opinion!

This part wasn't clear to me (the case studies part, the teachers part) because I went by the OP

The "studying experience" part made me go the other way.

I'm not so sure that it is. For the fun of it: in your thread the known countries are 3 Americans, 3 Canadians, 2 Europeans, 1 Brit, which would make Americans account for 30%* (hm, interesting). But for some reason we do seem to slip into American usage after a while, maybe as a kind of "internationalization".

** Edit: added - with Nikolas we now have Greece / Britain.

We were given "grades" in high school chorus and band. Being a lifelong musician, of course I always got A's.

Then band director decides to grade on how much we practice at home (at least how much we fill out on the little practice cards). I answered honestly - I didn't practice AT ALL at home (bearing in mind that I'm First chair All State Band).

He gave me a B.

I quit the band.

The way I look at it, we both lost.

I share my learning experience as an adult learner.

Grading system (ABRSM, AMEB) gives me some sorts of structure to follow. Music learning is too vast. Without some sort of structures, it's easy to get lost. It also gives me something to aim for. When I pass, it gives me a great sense of achievement. It makes me practise the things I wouldn't necessarily enjoy but important in the long run. It gives me confidence and a sense of challenge to tackle something harder. On the other hand, the pressure can be difficult to manage at times. One also needs to be humble and realise that passing certain grades doesn't mean one has mastered certain pieces or certain elements/aspects of music.

When you ask whether music should be measured, do you mean the composition or the performance? And when you said measured what do you mean? Graded? In terms of what? Difficulties? If it's difficulties, do you mean technically or musically or both?

Graded assessment is one way to measure skill levels. Not the perfect way to measure, but one way. If not grades, how else to measure? Number of hours practised? Number of hours of effective practised? Studying with a famous teacher/school? Number of pieces learned? Number of pieces memorised? Number of recitals performed? Number of competitions won? Number of praises earned? Number of albums released? Number of audience attended? Loudness of applause? I think graded assessment is one simple way to measure skills that is easy to understand and easily accepted by many. But I think the question to ask is why should we measure musical skills. In the early learning stages, it is a tool to assist progression. I think when one turns professional, grades no longer have much meanings.

Good luck with your research.

That one is easy. I can answer it definitively.

The phone rings and they hire me again, or it doesn't.

No other metric is as meaningful or trustworthy.

These are grades for students' attainments. Professionals don't have grades. And most students never become professionals (and have no aspiration to make their living from music). I'm not, even though I have a diploma. Of all my fellow music students at high school that I met at a school reunion (or heard about), only three (out of some thirty) made their living from music.

If you are a professional, all that matters is whether you can deliver the goods. Though of course, they might look at your CV before they hire you in the first place. And your CV will include your grades in any music exams, or music degrees. My parents hired my first teacher (who was then aged nineteen) on the basis that she had a teaching diploma (ABRSM), not based on her previous work experience - because she had none. I was her first student.