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Dear all,

After my last post, I did a bit more research and tried more pianos, read a bit more info.

I have a new list now and an important question to ask.

My list now Haessler 118, Grotrian 111, and Hoffman t128, Kawai k600. I haven't completely rule out Petrof but the sound perhaps not my first choice.

I have read learning will be at best to the maximum potential that an instrument can offer. Therefore, my question is given limited budget, whether to go for a top tier small piano, or a more standard choice like Kawai k500 please?

Whether a small piano would limit the music expression by not providing enough power and tonal colour?

I'm an adult beginner and also buying it with the mid that my son will learn on it. I would like to choose a lovely sounding piano that will provide proper action for him to learn through at least grade 8.

Thank you very much for your contributions!

Pampy

Are you buying new?

For sure there are smaller pianos that are quite limited in the discant and in the bass, but as soon as you reach, say, 114cm or so, the quality of the instrument becomes much more important, I think.

I have recently played a Seiler Primus 116 that had a sound in it that had no relation to its size if you ask me. It was unreal.

K300 is the minimum Kawai I'd do. Totally reasonable bass and discant in my opinion. The wife likes the K500 even better, though. :-)

Yes, am buying new.

What Hendrik says.

Out of your selection you mention Grotrian. They are superb, tier 1 machines.

Thanks a lot! Seems a minimum height shall be 114 for a tier one piano?

It really depends on the design of each piano. For instance, I have a fairly small Challen upright from the 1950s, and at the moment, while I don't have access to my other pianos, I'm using it for most of my practice. Actually the sound of it is quite good, and the bass is strung at such an angle that it has the sound of a much taller piano. It's not a particularly solid piano but it's of good design.

You often find with the German uprights, that the scale designs are so good that many of the limitations are overcome. However, they are very expensive and you have to weigh up what you're looking for in a piano. For instance, if I was going to buy an upright in the price range of a Grotrian 111, which I think in the UK comes in at about £8,000, I'd have to seriously consider whether it was really better than a Yamaha YUS3 which is in a similar price range, much taller, and perhaps better. That's a question of taste, and I believe that both instruments have their pros and cons.

As to your actual question, does the size of the piano limit progress or musical growth? Probably not really, not when you're looking at those particular models that you've mentioned. The real limits to musical growth are bad teaching and not enough practice (provided it's the right kind of practice and not the play through that we're all guilty of....). Any one of these pianos will take your son through Grade 8. I know some excellent piano teachers that don't even own pianos as good as those.

Just another thought here, does the size of the room that the piano sits in also have an impact ?. Would a large piano overpower a small space, meaning that a high quality smaller instrument might actually be better than something larger if the piano will live in a small room ?

Consider to buy a second hand piano from a private person (but not forget to let a piano technician check it). There are so many good piano's for sale that are hardly played on (at least in the Netherlands). It will save you a lot of money or enable you to buy a bigger/better piano. And it does not need 'breaking in' (not sure if this is English...).

But even much more important: buy a piano that you like! Take your time to get some feeling for all the different sounds and actions of piano's. Learn a simple song and play just that and focus on what you hear and feel.

Hope you find a fine piano! It's a great hobby.

Cheers,
Hans

Thanks a lot for your replies!

I am planning to put piano in a small room as it would disturb neiboughs the least, prob 3*2.3 sq meter but with tall ceiling.

I'm going out to try more pianos now.

So another question is if a short tire one piano won't delay progress, will it offer any advantage over bigger ones at all?

Many thanks!!

I'll admit to being somewhat of a piano novice, or at least in the early stages of the learning curve, but here is what I think:

If we are talking about an upright piano, the height (tallness/bigness) wound have an advantage in terms of sound/tone, as a general rule. So, I've always had the philosophy "the taller the better" when it comes to upright/vertical pianos. On the other hand, having owned a nice studio upright, as the quality of the piano gets better, the height/tallness is less of an advantage due to the overall quality. Hence, a high-quality 46" studio upright may well be a much better piano, than a lesser quality 52" upright.

I don't think the taller piano would necessarily be louder, but it would have a bigger sound board than a smaller one. If progress toward learning is the primary objective, I would go for the higher-quality smaller piano. It would likely have a better action, hammers, etc...

Just my .02.

Good luck!

Rick

No -- The more important thing is to get some practice time on other pianos, because they're all different. Not better or worse necessarily, just different. If you only practice on one piano, you only learn to play *that* piano.

Totally second this.

I learned on a console with a poor scale design... but I have to admit that my failings are due to my poor practice.

My kids now use excellent instruments... their biggest roadblock is their stubborn attitude!

Also want to point out the important role the teacher plays (pun not intended, sorry). I now believe that my own teacher was very slack with the details. A teacher that makes you play all the nuances correctly is the right kind of teacher. That type of playing also does justice to fine instruments.

Yes and yes.

An overpowering piano doesn't have to be big, it just needs to fill up the space with a lot of volume! Grands of all sizes are excellent at this because sound comes out both above and below the soundboard. This gives you a more immersive experience but too much is still too much. New grands are superbly overpowering due to their louder (efficient) designs. You can stick a 6' grand in a modest church for performances...

In my own experience, a grand sounds great with 9' or vaulted ceilings. In tighter and highly-reflective (i.e., too many hard surfaces) spaces with 8' ceilings the grand is too much for me. Never had a "too much" issue with uprights.

Just the opposite here. I have a 9 ft. concert grand that works fine in our living room. BIL has a console with extremely hard hammers that's actually significantly louder than the concert grand. Voicing trumps size.

I would choose a good quality taller upright like 48-52 inches, a workhorse Yamaha/Kawai or American piano depending on where you're from is fine.

In my opinion, the price jump of tier 1 premium pianos, especially small uprights are not worth it. Even though the small premium pianos you mention are all great, but something like a Kawai or Yamaha 48-52 inch offers you more bass without in my opinion diminished control. The sound quality might not sing as much as a tier 1 upright, but that being said it's perfectly good to learn on. The Tier 1 pianos will likely offer superior as in clearer, nicer sound but I don't think it offers significant advantages in action especially compared to a larger upright.

You may end up wanting a grand piano down the line depending on how much progress you/your son makes since grands do offer more precise control of the sound in my opinion with a superior action so it might not be worth the investment of getting a tier 1 small upright.

Unless you are wealthy and don't care much about price, or you know you're never going to buy a grand piano.

Edit: I actually just tried an August Forster and Sauter upright last week having played many Kawais/Yamahas over the years and don't find them to be significantly better. I do prefer the sound, but in terms of action, the bass was quite lacking especially since I've played almost exclusively grand pianos in the last year or so.

Thanks a lot for your insights!

Living in London I prob will never have the luxury to fit a grand piano in a flat. And also if I spend say 7-8k for a decent upright, the most likely is I wouldn't get the chance to upgrade to a tall tier one piano later on anyway.

So it feel like a task of choosing the life time piano, making it harder.

If you live in a London flat, you'd do well to investigate the option of a silent piano. Also don't discount the possibility of going fully digital. The Yamaha N1 Avant Grand is used by Artur Pizarro, Simone Dinnerstein, Murray McLachlan... and others. The top of the range CLP 585 Clavinova upright is also a very good piano, as is the Kawai CS11.

Yes, your son could go all the way to grade 8 with one of these digitals, although of course, I prefer a good acoustic over a digital.

I think a good rule of thumb when thinking about these things is that no upright less than 48" is going to give you the full benefit of musical expression. For grands, obviously depending on the room it's in, I would not get one that's less than 5'6. I don't think the brand matters, it comes down to physics

Women think that it matters more than men do.