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Hi,
I totally agree with Ivorytux that there is a difference if the sensor is triggered by 1) a part of the key or 2) a part of the hammer. I just did a test with my acoustic piano and I was able to "trigger a note" (hammer touching the string and making a sound) just by depressing the key about 2 mm (less than 1/8 inch). Of cause I had to strike it hard/fast enough to make the key travel all the way to the string by itself after the key movement has stopped. Thats why I also think there seem to be a difference between FP30 and the other Roland and Kawai actions pictured above.

To me its one of the fundamentals of a piano action feeling. Though I admit my thoughts about this don't take the dual vs. triple sensor in consideration. Does the triple sensor simulate this behavior? I think I must go to a music store...

/Henrik

Henrik - did you restrict the key movement to 2mm somehow? If so, that's not representative of how we actually play. I suspect with most if not all DPs, the key and hammer will travel together on the downstroke, if the key and hammer are at rest in their normal positions just before the note is played.

Greg

Great pictures!

I just tried to see what happens on my Kawai CN35 with RHIII (plastic action, three sensors) when I play staccato and really try to only hit the key like 50% of the way. The note sounds.
But I find it hard to ascertain that I only hit the key like 50%, so take with a grain of salt.

I think it is a technique issue, though :-)

On three sensors: they are a must have for being able to have the same fast, key-not-quite-fully-back-up-yet-when-you-hit-it-again repetition of a grand piano action. I have played DPs with two sensors and they can not do this, but an action with three sensors can.

I remember that this was discussed here before. There is actually a piano technique (I forgot its name) where you play the keys very shallow, above the let off point, but with enough impulse so that the key imparts enough force to the hammer that the hammer actually flies up enough to produce a tone. So even though the key is not fully depressed (not even beyond the let off point), it still generates a tone.

With a DP where the hammer triggers the sensor, this is possible too. I have tried this out with the GFII of my CA97 and it does indeed work.

But I have never actually used this technique while playing, as it's a rather advanced technique.

JoBert: I think you are referring to "playing off the jack", which is a completely different thing to what is being discussed here. You are referring to the technique where the key is pressed gently down to the letoff point (the point where, on a real piano, the key is just about to detach from the hammer), and then played with a firm action from that depressed starting point, to cause a very soft note to sound. Completely different situation.

Greg.

Greg, no, that is not what I am referring to. I am indeed referring to playing above the let off point, never pressing the key down fully.

Oh ok - apologies. I don't think that technique has a special name though - if it does, I've not heard of it.

Greg.

I don't know if the technique has a name, but it's very convenient when playing passages 'leggiero', and difficult to pull off on digital pianos.

Greg, I actually used old cassette tape plastic box... (it was open). But what I'm after is the way I sometimes play when I try to do staccato pp or ppp. Maybe this is a lack of, or wrong, technique but thats the way It works for me. I'm talking about "note on" behavior - not release of notes.
/Henrik

Henrik: Ok. I'm not disputing that the digitals aren't behaving like the acoustics. I'm just skeptical that it's related to whether the key or hammer is sensed. I think it's other factors.

Greg.

Greg, you might be very right.
/Henrik

If I'm correct that the key does travel down with the hammer, I guess the sensor itself may impede the motion of the key, if it's a spongey rubbery thing. The key doesn't have the same momentum as the heavy hammer, so I suppose that could either cause the note to sound softer than it should, or not at all. Hmmmm.

Greg.

Unless you impede the keys progress in some manner though it'll still carry on to the bottom anyway, even if the finger detached early in the process (which is helpful/required when playing rapid yet quiet passages).

The only way I can see this is a particular problem with the folded style actions is if the hammer is not attached and the key section doesn't have that much mass, in that case the key part may not have the momentum required to trigger the sensors.

In this slow-motion video of a grand action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGY87KUuz8E I concede that the key may well NOT continue down with the hammer, and it appears that the reason is because of the back force from the damper. The reason I say this is that the key starts to return before the hammer does, and that appears to be due to the damper. I.e - despite the fact that the key isn't being played in a shallow fashion the way we want it to be, we can tell from the behaviour of the return how it MIGHT behave IF it were played shallow.

In the case of the FP90, what we need is a high speed video that shows the hammer and the key clearly, to prove one way or another what's going on.

Greg.

(oops - FP30 I meant)

Hello, friends! After downloading firmware update for my Roland FP-30, I found F-20 digital piano almost same as FP-30, It utilises same processor chip "R8A02021ABG", FP-30 has more memory onboard, but the FP-30 functionality is limited by manufacturer. For example, Roland F-20 have a 32 rhytms, but FP-30 - just 8, and firmware for FP-30 has all rhytm files, but only 8 included in usable list. Can anybody explain this limitations and what can we do something to be free to extend functionality of our pianos?

You had me at "nekkid pics"

Pretty neat to see the inside of the FP-30. It's the model I started on, and still enjoy playing it--the piano sounds are quite nice!

Saw this thread on google earlier, when I was looking at the possibility of narrowing the keys.

Be interesting to hear more on this "firmware updates" thing for this piano, and what the benefits are.

See here. You should check what version firmware you have following instructions at that link. If you don't v1.05, you might upgrade, but the release notes only suggest this will affect their tablet/smartphone app. Do you even use that?

I'll check it.
App? If you mean Piano Partner 2, I have it on my tablet--never had an opportunity to try it before I went off on the Pianoteq tangent (downloaded it before my piano arrived, then forgot about it).