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Dear members:

This is my first post. I am looking at two pianos, the Estonia 168 and Shigeru Kawai SK-2, both priced relatively evenly at my local dealer (42-45k before tax, CAD). I haven't tried the SK-2 yet (it's on its way) but I do love the Estonia tone and action. However, I wanted to ask your observations about the upkeep of these two pianos. Which one is harder to tune and/or more likely to run into problems in 5-10 years (I heard that the pinblock in the Estonia is prone to problems?)

Thank you for your much valued input!

Hi Markus03,

Welcome to PW.

You have no reason for concern with either piano. They are both well made instruments and neither have structural deficiencies that you need to be concerned with. (Translation - Estonias have no proclivity toward pinblock problems.)

I have a definite preference between the pianos, but the real question is which do you prefer?

There are many checklists you should consider when buying a piano. Some may concern you specifically, others may not.

1. Tone
2. Touch.
3. Price
4. History and reputation of piano manufacturer. (Warranty)
5. Services from the dealer and history of the dealer (future services)
6. Appearance
7. Quality of construction

Find more of your own concerns, write them down and make your comparisons..makes making a decision a little easier.

Can't say anything about the Estonia - but I love my SK2

You really need to make your own decision, though.

My shortlist of new and used pianos I liked from dealers in London (no Estonias available) in 2012-3 was:

- Bluthner (tone, figured mahogany)
- Shigeru (precision)
- Steingraeber (familiar German sound)
- Steinway (ambience)
- Yamaha (CF6, some instrument!)

The main result of that exercise was that you have to think long and hard about what you want for your money.

Hi everyone!

Thank you very much for your kind replies. Yes, absolutely tone and touch are extremely important. The SK-2 should be arriving soon for me to try out.

I just wanted to know if there were any known recurring problems with either piano before I make the decision.

To answer some of your questions, I really love the Estonia action and tone, extremely crisp, clean but can be warm as well. Although I have not tried the SK-2, I tried a similar-sized Kawai RX and it sounded very nice indeed. Extremely round tone and very warm, however I found the bass not as clear as the Estonia.

I have tried to listen to different genres of music on both pianos online (I know it's not accurate and there are so many confounding factors...) and the Estonia tone keeps me wanting to listen again and again. To put things into perspective, I currently have a Boston 163 and after 3 years, I find the action too hard and the bass just drowns out everything. Although I know these things can be tweaked by an experienced technician, there is something more that I am drawn to the Estonia.

I read somewhere in these forums that the Estonia pianos tend to "choose" the buyer, and not the other way around :-) I will wait to test the SK-2 and update you on my final decision.

Thank you Rich for your input!

BTW, I really enjoy your Piano Tastings episodes! Very entertaining and informative!

Out of curiosity, which of the two is your definite preference? Shigeru or the Estonia?

Thanks again.

Markus, I have added some comments to my post above. Do let us know what you think about the Shigeru when you play it even if you prefer the Estonia.

As a decidedly biased Estonia owner, let me add the following:

I owned an Estonia 168 from 2000 to 2005; there were no issues with it, although it was played every day.

I now own an Estonia 190, purchased in 2004. There have been no issues with it and my piano technicians continue to say what a well-made piano this is.

From what I've read of Shigeru, your choice should come down to one of tone and touch; they are both well-made instruments.

Remember that the newest of my two Estonias is now twelve years old. Recent refinements in Estonia manufacture should make your choice even more secure if you decide to go for the Estonia.

Regards,

+1

Of course, this kind of statement is just plain silly.

But people who love Estonias(or any other piano)sometimes like to get romantic about their pianos. Or it can be just a catchy dealer phrase to lure buyers.

Sometimes someone can be looking a long time for a piano without much success, and then they play a piano that immediately has great appeal. But this has NOTHING to do with the piano choosing the buyer.

You seem to be in a lucky place as you found nothing negative about Estonia. The only negative you mentioned was not true. If it was true, it would be a major flaw and Estonia would not be rated so highly. So if you don't like the Shigeru it sounds like you'll be completely happy with he Estonia. If you like them both a lot then only you can really decide. My advice would be to make tone the biggest priority unless you find a major problem with the touch...but that's just my personal thinking.

Although I have a strong preference between the two (they are significantly different pianos) you will be fine with either. They are both high quality pianos.

From our experience with this make for almost 20 years, this is actually absolutely correct. This is not meant to take away from any other fine piano like Shigeru: perhaps it is happening there as well?

Fact be known that Estonia buyers seem very "similar people": if meeting in one large room they would all feel like 'long lost friends'.

Perhaps it's based on the fact that Estonia has such a special tone and musical appeal that appeals to a special group of people the connection of which occurs rather quickly. Or never at all.

Perhaps they all play pianos similarly and appreciate the sound this piano offers for their music making. A bit of a mystery but fascinating to watch.

In fact we have experienced this repeatedly involving all major makes even Fazioli. If there's 'confusion' happening, my suggestion would be to try each piano again and if still persisting, perhaps go with the other one.

The reason being that most Premium pianos, certainly Estonias are made in only small numbers and usually back-ordered by most dealers I know.

That's exactly what happened to me the other day: somebody did decide on another piano [6' Shigeru] only to be visited by 2 pianists after who, after trying for only short time, wanted no other than the Estonia. And these guys had tried a lot more pianos than just Shigeru.

So, yes, respect to all but to be honest, the Estonia crowd does seem a little special or at least "unique". Again "friends meeting friends" if all meeting in one big room. Uniqueness attracting uniqueness..

Incidentally I married my wife same way.
"Going easy" and "all natural" does seem to last long time.
And "uniqueness" also helped.
At least she would say this about me....

Norbert

What do you mean by a piano choosing it's buyer? The usual meaning of that phrase makes absolutely no sense, but maybe you really mean something else.

I mean by this that many decisions we make are made unconsciously not just consciously.
[as is often presumed..] It's definitely not a value judgement'

When we "chose" the music we like, it could well be that our soul [actually it's the inner stem of our brain according to recent research..] is particularly responsive to a certain type sound or sound frequency your brain perceives as particularly pleasant, stimulating etc.

Here's a great documentary about this subject:
http://www.dw.com/en/program/sarahs-music/s-101118-9798

So, in a certain way, we seem musically "pre-programmed" for making musical choices. Perhaps Estonia's sound 'hits a certain nerve' where this becomes a "connection". And when it does, it does it quickly.

I'm sure it happens with others as well, but ironically we always believe "we're in charge" when playing or listening to music.

Not entirely so.

It's only part of the story....

Norbert

Well I think that description still sounds 100% like the person is the one choosing the piano and definitely not the other way around. Whether one thinks the piano appealed to the person's soul(rather silly IMO), or his unconscious and not his conscious mind, or that one is pre-programmed to like a certain type of sound, the piano appealed to the buyer and NOT the other way around. So the piano did not choose the buyer.

I think the "piano chose the buyer" is gobbledygook.

It's just a romantic way of saying "I fell in love and felt a special connection with the piano". Pretty sure no one means it in a literal sense

I've always wondered whether sometimes a piano can't decide between two buyers.

And maybe sometimes a piano hesitates in making up its mind about a buyer, and another piano comes along and snaps the buyer up.

Food for thought .....

Larry.

Thank you all again for such great advice and suggestions. I know in the end that I will have to choose and not have others decide for me.

Selecting a piano is extremely subjective and I had no idea it would be this difficult, but a very exciting experience nonetheless!

I'm happy to hear that there are no major issues with either brand and I know each has its own heritage and are well-built instruments.

I agree with most that the tone will be the key deciding factor for me. I will keep you all up to date!

Cheers!

Yes, I agree but the OP seemed to think it had some real meaning. No make, including Estonia, has any special claim to this. Some Estonia dealers and owners like to say this phrase but I'm sure some Steinway or Bechstein etc. owners say the same thing. I found Norbert's "explanation" of this phrase not particularly convincing.