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Something I keep talking about is the difference between people who just play and people who compose, arrange and improvise. Obviously you improvise, which is great.

My relationship to sound is different from many pianists because I am also a brass player and taught brass for many years. Scales are a much bigger part of brass playing than of piano playing. They are HUGELY important because they are part of every audition, including auditions for chairs.

I don't understand how anyone can hear C D E F and not associate that partly with what we hear at basketball games, the old Munsters theme. But also the last four notes of the Sorcerer's Apprentice. In both cases those four notes are the LAST four notes of a scale, not the first four notes. So for anyone who is listening, it should be obvious.

As for teaching the scales, I'm not closed to new ideas. I keep changing things every year, trying for something that works better. At present I do not teach the scales with notation. I'm a fanatic about reading, so there is no problem.

I like the idea of starting with the two black notes, using 2 and 3 for each hand, then getting that feel, then three black notes, 2 3 4 in each hand. Then I can IMMEDIATELY go to Db, B and Gb. I can even get students to get the idea of modes. Play a Db scale, starting and ending on Db, but change the C to B. What is this? Few students will say, "Oh, that's Gb or F#." They don't make the connection without help."

But then you can even say, "We don't HAVE to have C in any kind of Db scale. There are other scales besides major. When you change C to B (Cb), what do you hear? Could we use this scale?"

And of course you can, because at that point you know have a mode, and you can hear tunes going WAY back that use that sound, always with a lowered 7th.

Or you can say, "Let's keep our Db scale idea. We keep the black notes. But let's change F to E and C to B. What do we have now?"

And the idea is the same. You have the B scale, just starting on the "wrong" note. Most students will understand that, because all the black notes with B and E is the B scale. But starting on Db? Well, it is confusing in notation, because you have to change to C# D# E F# G# A# B C#. But in sound it is easy. Just flip the white notes from F and C to E and B. Don't change the fingering. Not necessary. What do you have?

And instantly you have Dorian. Granted, most players are not going to improvise Dorian minor in C#, but it's a cool idea. Use one finger and see if you can pick out Scarborough Fair, the melody, using that set of notes. (Not easy for people who have not played a long time, but fun.) Then do it on all white notes, starting with D and explain it is the same thing. But it's not as obvious when you change F# and C# to F and C.

Now, if you WANT to push the idea of tetrachords, you can use those black note keys ans show that the top part of B is the start of Gb. Or that the top part of Gb is the start of Db. But the whole time you never have to change those black keys, so it is really a good place to start. And those are the three keys that are easiest for beginners to play with both hand without screwing up the fingering. So why not start there? The goal is to get all of them, and it won't take terribly wrong. Then morph in to F major by playing the Gb scale from F to F (unusual mode) and natural 4 of the 5 flats.

That's the way I get to F major, and then one group of scales is completed, same fingering patterns.

Next is C major, because hands together the fingering is harder. Students WANT to play scales with two hands. I have to stop them from jumping the gun and screwing up the fingering. That doesn't happen in B, Db and Gb. So C major is huge. Get that in the bones and then D, E and A will come very fast.

Ab, Eb and Bb are special problems. I teach them last.

My experience is that when all 12 scales are automatic, in the bones, the keys light up. You are experiencing the scales as I do. Major scales are the most instant for me, probably natural minor also. Harmonic and melodic are really easy.

But blues scales are NOT immediate for me because I do not have them and their fingerings in my bones. So in this area I am like traditional players who only know certain keys well. I can instantly hear them in my mind, but the fingering is not there for hard keys.

For instance: C# B G# Fx F# E C#. I can't just play that scale down the whole piano fast. First I have to mentally finger it. Probably 2 1, 4 3 2 1, and so on. Is it always 4 plus two groups? I don't know. I have to mentally see myself playing this scale in each key, RH first. On C D E F and G and A blues I start with 3 but in the next octave it will be 1. So 4 keeps turning on the tritone.

That's one fingering pattern.

But it doesn't work for C#, where my 4th turns on the 5th of the scale. On Eb I'm not sure. F# - turn on 5th of the scale. Not sure on Ab and Bb.

All this shows that the moment I try to play blues scales in weird scales I'm screwed, because even though I can hear them see the keys that belong to them, I have not explored the fingering.

So my conclusion is that it HAS TO BE IN THE HANDS first.

I reject this idea because it is useless for the LH. If you teach traditional fingerings - which I do - it will break down from the beginning, in C major. For the LH you will have 1432, even if you put the thumb on C. But when you get to F, it will be 1321 on those notes. In the key of D it will be 1321 for A though D, but in the key of A it will be 1432. The fingering for tetrachord is only standardized for the LH when you get to E major.

Tetrachord will not show that ascending the thumbs play notes a 5th apart in C, D, E, G and A (also Ab), but a 4th apart in the RH for C D E G A (and Ab). It will not make very obvious that the thumbs are always on the same notes in B, Db, F and Gb. But for playing those scales, hands together, that is the MOST important free for me, and why I have to pay more attention in Bb and Eb, where the patterns are broken.

It depends on the level of the student. Obviously, with the level 3 and below kids, it's kind of pointless to teach them to integrate seven flats into their pieces, since level 3 music hardly goes past 4 sharps or 4 flats.

Conceptually, circle of fifth is not hard. In my experience, kids have a far more difficult time drawing the order of sharps and flats than naming keys.

FWIW, when I teach the scales, I don't use key signatures at all. It's mostly rote learning so kids can focus on hand positions and posture.

But if they are really PLAYING the scales, playing them well, how can they not understand the circle with a little help? Up to 5 black notes it's just count the black notes. The only exception is Gb, and later C# and Cb. Other than that, just picture what you are playing. You have 4 black notes, it's either 4 sharps or 4 flats. So you know how many. And then you just think - 1 black note, 2, 3, 4, put them in order.

So I think mastery leads to understanding the principle behind it.

You can still use Tetrachords for the LH, too. Just like the RH, there are two fingerings, but this time you play descending:
1231 and 2345(1)

So your groups are:

C B A G, F E D C
G F# E D, D C# B A
A G# F# E, E D# C# B

and for the Bb A G F group, you do 2345 & 2123

It seems like you have very good ideas for the HT scales and how they line up, and it's obvious you've spent a lot of time considering when each finger lines up with the others (certainly a lot more than me). In my mind I'm only using the tetrachords to teach the notes and fingerings of each scale hands separate. Later we can move onto scales hands together.

Also, I certainly think that starting the scales with the Db, Gb and B is a good idea. I think it can be used in addition to the tetrachords (to go through the C, D, E, F, G, A scales).

As an aside, it's funny that you mentioned that you play a brass instrument. I play alto saxophone and I personally think scales are much more important for monophonic instruments than piano, mainly because the "fingering" is (almost) always the same. On saxophone, there's really only one way you can "finger" a G scale, so when a G scale or fragment of a scale shows up in a piece, you play the exact same thing you practiced.

However, on piano, context determines the fingering, even of scalar passages. The funniest example I always think of is the Mozart K545 C major sonata. If I played those scale passages on saxophone, they'd feel the exact same as a normal C scale. But on piano, suddenly I can't use the same C major scale fingering anymore. The principles are similar, but it can be frustrating.

So, how do you justify the practicing of scales to your students? Also, when they've learned a scale, how do you have them "apply" it (besides playing "Joy to the World" in 12 keys, haha)? I've developed a good system for teaching and applying the 12 major and minor triads, but I'm still experimenting with scales. Do you pick a new piece to play that has scales in it or something?

Wait.............gotta get popcorn.............

As a student, I'm still discovering new ways to think about scales, along with their fingering, each time I cycle through the circle of fifths (generally one key per week, lather, rinse, repeat).

This week I'm working on Ab major.

The first thing I realized is that for this scale there is only one sensible place to lay down the 123 and 1234 in each hand. So it's easy to recover and check the fingering for myself.

The second thing I was reminded about by this thread, which was to pay attention to where finger 4 lands for each hand (LH Db, RH Bb). This helped keep me oriented at all the crossings.

The third thing I realized is that the fingers fall on the same notes as if I were playing C Phrygian with the standard C Major fingering. This made Ab major and its fingering suddenly seem quite normal instead of annoyingly weird.

The fourth thing I discovered is that C Phrygian in contrary motion is symmetric (in the same way that E major in contrary motion is symmetric). I'm not quite sure what use this is -- it certainly didn't help me with my Ab major in contrary motion! -- but it has me wondering if there are other modal symmetries hidden inside the other major scales. (And conversely, gives me a way to invent mind-twisting highly asymmetric exercises if I ever get tired of the ordinary suite of scale exercises.)

Tell them - do they want to learn Chopin's famous "Heroic" Polonaise?

Well, there's a straightforward two-handed B flat melodic minor scale in it, using 'normal fingering'. I remembered that because that was the only part of the piece I didn't have to practice when I (attempted to) learn it as a kid, before I had the chord & octave technique to play it properly .

Uh, and when the answer is "no"?

Or when they say, yes, that means I only have to learn one scale?

That is probably the most important thing. It tells you that the thumbs are on the same notes as the C scale. Which is why it belongs with the other group of scales, C D E G and A - you add Ab to the group.

Thanks, Gary. Next week is Eb major, and I look forward to investigating it the same way.

Well, you also have to learn the chromatic scale for the equally famous Fantaisie-Impromptu. And the A flat arpeggio for the equally famous 'Aeolian Harp' Etude. And the D flat major scale for the equally famous 'Minute' Waltz. And......

Actually, you might as well learn the whole lot, so you're prepared, like all good boy scouts . (And I haven't even started on other composers yet......)

I kind of follow the procedure in the National Guild of Piano Teachers syllabus.

Many of my students are younger, so I want to keep it simple and easy in the beginning. I teach scales in the following sequence:

[list]
[*] 1. White key major scales (C,G,D,A,E,B,F) 1 octave hands separate
2. Parallel white key minor scales (Cm, Gm, D, Am, Em, Bm, Fm) 1 octave hands separate
3. White key major scales (C,G,D,A,E,B,F) 2 octaves hands separate
4. Parallel white key minor scales (Cm, Gm, D, Am, Em, Bm, Fm) 2 octaves hands separate
5. White key major scales (C,G,D,A,E,B,F) 2 octaves hands together
6. Parallel white key minor scales (Cm, Gm, D, Am, Em, Bm, Fm) 2 octaves hands together
7. Black key scales (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb) 2 octave hands separate.
8. Black key scales (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb) 2 octave hands together.
9. All major scales around circle of 5ths with relative minors 2 octaves hands separate
10. All major scales around circle of 5ths with relative minors 2 octaves hands separate and together
11. All major scales around circle of 5ths with relative minors 4 octaves hands separate and together

As students learn to play scales hands together, I feel that it is important to continue to play them also hands separate in order to focus on developing speed and flow.

Many ways of presenting scales have been recommended in this forum and I am sure that all of them are quite effective. I may present scales in a somewhat more gradual manner, because I try to keep objectives within relatively easy grasp, and I understand that learning to play piano is a process that requires many years of study. I hope that this has been helpful to some.

What is your reasoning for this order?

It seems to me that this order is sequential in order of difficulty, and is, consequently, easier to learn.

It has been my experience that a six-year-old student can easily hear then difference between major and minor, and that they can easily lower the 3rd and 6th notes to turn a major scale into a parallel minor scale. I have found that the concept of relative minor scales, which depend of the key signature, is easier for students to grasp once they are somewhat older and already have a good foundation of playing scales.

As have been previously discussed in other topics, today's music students are involved in baseball, dance, martial arts, tennis, etc., not to mention playing video games and watching anime. So I want to make learning to play piano as easy and accessible as possible for them.

Learning to play scales in the order as I teach them, and learning a new scale each week, could take a student about 2 1/2 - 3 years to learn all the major and minor scales 4 octaves hands together (not including melodic and natural minor).

I'll admit that I asked the question in order to begin an exploration of ideas, depending on your thinking. The main thought is "difficulty". Intellectually, remembering which notes are on raised or lowered (sharps or flats), the white keys and C major are easier. Physically (was discussed) B, Db, Gb are "easier" because of the shape of the hands and height and placement of the keys. So you have a conflict in terms of what is "easy" one way actually being the "hardest" the other way for that instrument. A third element was introduced: in which scales does the thumb cross onto the same note, and in which scales does it not, when playing HT.

I found this interesting, because for me the relative minor is the same sequence of piano keys or notes (without necessarily knowing note names) started two piano keys lower. It was initially harder for me to remember to lower the 3rd and the 6th (esp. the 6th). That said, I like the idea of parallel (tonic) minor better for a number of reasons.

Yes, I teach the scales in order of which are easier to grasp intellectually, rather than which ones are easier to play.

I try to teach my students to be aware of which note the 4th finger plays, because, with the exception of "F" with the right hand and "B" with the left hand, the 4th finger plays only one note in each scale. Knowing which finger the 4th finger plays helps students know when to turn the thumb under and is especially helpful when playing hands together.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I've heard that tip from several sources, but I've never found that to be helpful. It's redundant for students who don't find fingering difficult, and those who struggle need a lot more help than this one tip.