We are interested in a grand piano for my wife to renew her playing and to introduce our 3 year old son to the piano. We have been visiting a number of piano stores to listen and play them and found the steingraeber & sohne to be our favorite musically, although out of our price range.
We are considering an Estonia 190 with a 15 year trade-up option to a Tier 1 piano later if we chose, but want to pass the piano on to our son and are not sure this would be the best option as we are not sure we will remain in the area for the next 15 years.
We are interested in August Forster but in Seattle, there is no place where we can hear one. I heard one while on a business trip and felt is a fuller sound than the Estonia, and am wondering if it would make sense to pay the extra $10k now to get the August Forster even though it would stretch our budget.
We would like to get others thoughts.
Thank you in advance.
Seattledd

I prefer Estonia to August Förster. To me the Estonia sounds warm and romantic and the Förster sounds elegant and a bit dull. Those are my impressions of the two brands.

Of course, the sound varies from piano to piano. Of the 6 Estonia pianos I played while helping a friend choose a piano, only one really spoke to me. It had a fuller sound than the other ones.
He got that one.

Here is a survey of Larry Fine´s tier one list(including Förster).
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/12654.html#000000

Soon I will make a combined tier 1 and tier 2 survey. I wouldn´t be surprised if Estonia pass Förster in that survey.

Both are great pianos and excellent value for the money. I personally prefer the AF.


I'm not sure where you're shopping for the AF, but from what I know about Altenberg's pricing it should probably be cheaper than what you're suggesting. You should give him a ring.

There are a lot of happy Estonia owners on this forum. That being said, I'm with Jon. I prefer the Förster's sound.

"...and am wondering if it would make sense to pay the extra $10k now to get the August Forster even though it would stretch our budget."

It's hard to say. What will the Dollar/Euro exchange rate be in 10 or 15 years? What will be the average annual price increase for EU-manufactured pianos during this period?

As far as the 15-year 100% trade-up option is concerned --- will the dealer making the offer still be in business in 10 or 15 years?

JP

I too prefer the AF, though again the Estonia is a fine piano. The light, fast action on the AFs I've played really stand out.

Rich

If your in the Seattle area, take a look at Classical Grands, they are located in Seattle and carry August Forster

As for the difference in sound, I prefer the AF sound myself and the action is wonderful.

Oh I forgot to mention that Classical Grands also carries Estonia so it would be perfect for a side by side comparison

I can only recommend the AF since you like that one better. The extra 10 grand will seem insignificant in a few years.

In my opinion, the Estonia 190 is[/b] a tier one piano, and a darned good value. I agree with pianistical's assessment that the Estonia had a warmer, more romantic sound than the AF. (Could somebody please tell me how to type umlauts so I can spell "Forster" correctly?)

However, I will also say that I found the AFs to be somewhat variable across dealerships. I played them and the Estonia at one dealership and favored the Estonia hands down...it wasn't even close. But I visited Cathy Harl's store last fall and played a Forster there that was sublime and better than the Estonias she had at the time. It was my favorite piano at her store (and she had other tier 1 brands like Bechstein and Grotrian). So...I guess my advice is to compare the particular pianos you're playing and not worry about generalizations across brands. If you can go to Classical Grands and play both at the same store, that would be ideal.

p.s. If you search the archives for "trade up" or "trade in" option, you'll find a lot of relevant posts. The dominant opinion appears to be that the trade up option is rarely all that valuable or helpful (the trade in is typically applied to the full MSRP of the new piano, which is not a "real" price in any meaningful sense, and there is a widespread belief that dealers will not discount the new piano as much if they know there is a full trade-in to be applied). So I would not let the trade-in option be a factor in your decision, and if you get the Estonia, make sure you get the option explicitly spelled out in writing.

I've read elsewhere that Classical Grands no longer carries AF - better call ahead first.

i'd love to play a Forster.. never have. I can tell you i love my little Estonia and that if any piano is currently considered a good deal financially both now and in the future (as it attempts to garner market presence and recognition, coupled with factors that enable the company to distribute the pianos at a lower cost (like proximity to a seaport)it's the Estonia.

You can use the search function (a link is located in the title bar) to read archived threads and posts about these two pianos.. (i found 236 matches for August Forster and i remember when searching for Estonia information there were even more).

Both are great pianos so if you can afford it then get what you like.
It is very hard though to compare pianos when they are not side-by-side. Different acoustics, different condition of the instrument’s tuning, voicing and preparation, as well as other factors may influence your perception of the sound at any given day.

If indeed though you liked the AF better once hearing it and the Estonia again and the only factor is the cost, then spend the extra money for it. Over the next many years this instrument will reside in your home and you'll be looking (and hopefully playing it) every day.
You may spend a similar amount on a car, and most likely only a few years later it will have little value and be replaced...since the piano is there to stay for a much longer time, get what you like. Especially if as mentioned before, the price difference may be substantially less then 10K.

However I couldn't stress more the importance of afew other points. Buying from a local dealer, seeing and playing the actual piano that you'll get, and understanding what changes will occur to it in the future are all very important.

A local dealer will not only be in the position to give you better technical support if needed, but also inclined to prepare the piano better and make sure that it performs at its peak. After all, people in his local market may be visiting your home and playing/hearing your piano.
A good dealer can also explain to you the inner workings of the piano, what changes it will go through in the future, and what to expect. He would also be there to understand what you want and keep the instrument sounding to your liking in the future.
I think that Alex Hernandez of classical grands is definitely an example of an excellent dealer that can do all this and more.
By Alex's own words, Seattle is blessed with many good piano dealers, so I would seriously suggest that you buy locally and choose from the options that are available there. If you're really set on the AF, then wait a bit until a local dealer will pick the representation for this area, and check out the pianos once at their place. Classical grands used to carry the line, but as I understand it decided to go in a different direction. I doubt though that this line will remain without representation for long time in that area.

Seattledd,
Ori makes a good point about buying through a local dealer if at all possible. Good service is an important aspect of any sale. Classical Grands I know use to carry Forsters and has a good reputation.

I also would not get caught up on whether a piano should or should not be in Larry Fine's Tier 1 category. All that is really important is that Estonia is a fine piano as is the AF. Good luck in deciding which piano is best for you.

Rich

Alex has an excellent reputation...well deserved.

You should contact him.

seattledd - I played about a dozen Estonias and a dozen Forsters during my recent piano search. I ultimately preferred the Estonias, independent of price, although some Forsters also had a very nice sound. Don't assume you would *have* to "trade-up" on an Estonia to get a better instrument. You might or might not.

There is also something to be said for not stretching one's budget. Then one has more money left for lessons. JMHO. Play several brands, at several dealers, and tell us what you liked.

While the Estonia is a very nice instrument , my wife and I found the August Forster to be superior in all respects. Our final choice was made between a Bosie CS and the AF......the AF won hands down ,and we are dreaming of one day adding another AF to our home.

Having played both at reasonable length, I could believe that it could be a close run thing[/b] in favour of either[/b] an AF or[/b] a Bösendorfer CS, depending on one's particular tonal and action preferences, and/or the standard of preparation of the examples encountered. However IMHO the only aspect where an August Förster could ever win hands down[/b] over a similar-sized Bösendorfer CS would be the price.

- Michael B.

Thank you all for your input we really appreciate your thoughts. We have spent a good portion of time with Alex at Classical Grands playing the Estonia and his other brands. Unluckily as some have mentioned, He did stop carrying the August Forster brand, so we could not compare the two side-by-side. Your thoughts about price, location, and comparison of the sound between the two brands have given us much to think about. We will let you all know how we progress.
- Seattledd

A discussion like this is always interesting; all I can add is that it very much depends within which *particular mix of pianos* any one make or model is to be compared to.

For example, when we decided on the mix of our own brands, we made the decision in direct comparison to all other [available] German-European brands, trying from the very beginning to avoid all those who where perhaps a bit "too close" to each other and/or could bring a sense of *confusion* to our showroom.....

Estonia and A.F. are not that dissimiliar in many respects - IMHO - with the Estonia not only being less costly but also hugely appreciating at the same time.

Which was one of the reasons, at least we decided for it.

[Not bad if you don't sell all pianos in one day... ]

And there is precious little *confusion* when trying - like in our case - an Estonia besides a Sauter or Grotrian or what have you....

From our experience, consumers learn more about pianos and their own preference when they are given an opportunity to try from a variety of equally beautiful - but otherwise quite different instruments.

Good luck in your search!

Norbert

I had the opportunity to play a number of pianos when making my purchase. I had not played for a number of years and was hesitant to make the move to a big purchase without research. If you are comparing pianos in this price range I would also consider looking at Petrov, Vogel and Schimmel pianos although the Schimmels may be more in price. Good luck with your research.

We went through this decision back in 2003 or thereabouts - August Forster vs. Estonia. The Estonia was significantly less expensive, about $16K at the the time. We really liked the sound and the dealer (Cunningham's in Philadelphia, PA) was great! Low pressure, helpful, etc. I wanted to buy from them just becuase of their good customer service! We took a tour of their restoration factory as well, which was very interesting.

However, in the end we opted for the August Forster Model 170 from Altenburg Piano in NJ. The Altenburg dealership reminded me more of a car dealer than Cunningham's, but we did get good serivce and I would certainly recommend them to others. Just be sure to do your homework!

I could certainly see some people liking the sound of the Estonia over the August Forster. Compare them, and buy the one you like best...

Doug Atkinson

Sounds like it's going to be hard for you to compare, unless you do some traveling. CG did carry AF when I was shopping, but I chose Estonia. I didn't play the AF very much, my memory was that it didn't have the oomph and warmth that the Estonia did. Real precision terms, huh? But seriously, try and and go somewhere where you can play them both so you can make an informed choice. I love my Estonia 190 and it is a high-quality instrument materials wise. But, I know the AF is a great piano too.

Well . . . when we were piano shopping Alex did have an AF. We went with Estonia.

FWIW.

All I can add to this discussion is that I love my Estonia 190. It is just so musical, warm and lucious sounding. That said, I have never encountered an AF anywhere in my travels so there's no basis for comparison. Maybe I would prefer the AF if I played one. Who knows?

If you can afford either, buy the one you like better.

Good luck!

When I was piano searching a month ago, I found a dealer in my area that had the August Forster. I made a special trip to that dealer to see and play the Forster because I remember a Forster that I had played 20 years ago when I was shopping for my first grand. That Forster stayed with me; I was so impressed with it...the sound the action.

This go round, while I had played the Estonia 190 several times at another dealer, the first time I sat down at this Forster a month ago...WOW! My impressions were the same....the action...smooth, not light and fast, but very fluid. The sound....beautiful, clear, ringing...not sharp, but melifluous. Unfortunately, the dealer quoted me a price that was well out of my price range, and didn't appear to want to deal, so he still has the Forster and the carrying costs, and I have an M&H that I'm just as thrilled with.

I guess you can tell which camp I'm in.

Having carefully examined both the Estonia and the August Forster inside and out I can tell you that both are fine pianos. But... The AF is in an entirely higher class than the Estonia. At least in the area of physical build quality. Which of the two performs better in terms of touch and tone is, of course, another matter and is completely subjective.

But when a manufacturer is so concerned with attention to details that even the screws are pointing in the same direction, I'd have to say: Get the piano you like. But if you love them both, have a budget that allows, and are looking for the one that can at least technically be called the best, the AF would likely be your choice.

Ace30

Ace30, I like your post! I like that you are not afraid to state your opinion.

The politically correctness bothers me so much that I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone say there could be a "really nice Sejung piano that you like better than Bosie, so it's best to try them all and get the one you really like."

Wouldn't it be wonderful to find that Sejung piano? I can see the owner now -- "I tried and compared this piano against all the Bosies and Steinways, I really liked this one the best!"

Good grief!

As has been already stated touch and tone are subjective but key as to which piano you like best. Both pianos are fine instruments. As far as which one I prefer, August Forester hands down. The action feels much smoother to me, a notch above the Estonia IMHO and of course I really like the tone. Bottomline is forget all these recommendations and buy the one you like best.

Rich

The screws on my Estonia are turned in the same direction. But they are driven into MDF, which is something Foerster likely doesn't use.

I'm just so excited that some are willing to compare my piano to a Foerster. Especially since it cost 14,000 less.

It is the direction the screws are pointing, which determines what Tier the piano belongs to!

Of course, everything else is ... subjective. :p