We are interested in a grand piano for my wife to renew her playing and to introduce our 3 year old son to the piano. We have been visiting a number of piano stores to listen and play them and found the steingraeber & sohne to be our favorite musically, although out of our price range.
We are considering an Estonia 190 with a 15 year trade-up option to a Tier 1 piano later if we chose, but want to pass the piano on to our son and are not sure this would be the best option as we are not sure we will remain in the area for the next 15 years.
We are interested in August Forster but in Seattle, there is no place where we can hear one. I heard one while on a business trip and felt is a fuller sound than the Estonia, and am wondering if it would make sense to pay the extra $10k now to get the August Forster even though it would stretch our budget.
We would like to get others thoughts.
Thank you in advance.
Seattledd

I prefer Estonia to August Förster. To me the Estonia sounds warm and romantic and the Förster sounds elegant and a bit dull. Those are my impressions of the two brands.

Of course, the sound varies from piano to piano. Of the 6 Estonia pianos I played while helping a friend choose a piano, only one really spoke to me. It had a fuller sound than the other ones.
He got that one.

Here is a survey of Larry Fine´s tier one list(including Förster).
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/12654.html#000000

Soon I will make a combined tier 1 and tier 2 survey. I wouldn´t be surprised if Estonia pass Förster in that survey.

Both are great pianos and excellent value for the money. I personally prefer the AF.


I'm not sure where you're shopping for the AF, but from what I know about Altenberg's pricing it should probably be cheaper than what you're suggesting. You should give him a ring.

There are a lot of happy Estonia owners on this forum. That being said, I'm with Jon. I prefer the Förster's sound.

"...and am wondering if it would make sense to pay the extra $10k now to get the August Forster even though it would stretch our budget."

It's hard to say. What will the Dollar/Euro exchange rate be in 10 or 15 years? What will be the average annual price increase for EU-manufactured pianos during this period?

As far as the 15-year 100% trade-up option is concerned --- will the dealer making the offer still be in business in 10 or 15 years?

JP

I too prefer the AF, though again the Estonia is a fine piano. The light, fast action on the AFs I've played really stand out.

Rich

If your in the Seattle area, take a look at Classical Grands, they are located in Seattle and carry August Forster

As for the difference in sound, I prefer the AF sound myself and the action is wonderful.

Oh I forgot to mention that Classical Grands also carries Estonia so it would be perfect for a side by side comparison

I can only recommend the AF since you like that one better. The extra 10 grand will seem insignificant in a few years.

In my opinion, the Estonia 190 is[/b] a tier one piano, and a darned good value. I agree with pianistical's assessment that the Estonia had a warmer, more romantic sound than the AF. (Could somebody please tell me how to type umlauts so I can spell "Forster" correctly?)

However, I will also say that I found the AFs to be somewhat variable across dealerships. I played them and the Estonia at one dealership and favored the Estonia hands down...it wasn't even close. But I visited Cathy Harl's store last fall and played a Forster there that was sublime and better than the Estonias she had at the time. It was my favorite piano at her store (and she had other tier 1 brands like Bechstein and Grotrian). So...I guess my advice is to compare the particular pianos you're playing and not worry about generalizations across brands. If you can go to Classical Grands and play both at the same store, that would be ideal.

p.s. If you search the archives for "trade up" or "trade in" option, you'll find a lot of relevant posts. The dominant opinion appears to be that the trade up option is rarely all that valuable or helpful (the trade in is typically applied to the full MSRP of the new piano, which is not a "real" price in any meaningful sense, and there is a widespread belief that dealers will not discount the new piano as much if they know there is a full trade-in to be applied). So I would not let the trade-in option be a factor in your decision, and if you get the Estonia, make sure you get the option explicitly spelled out in writing.

I've read elsewhere that Classical Grands no longer carries AF - better call ahead first.

i'd love to play a Forster.. never have. I can tell you i love my little Estonia and that if any piano is currently considered a good deal financially both now and in the future (as it attempts to garner market presence and recognition, coupled with factors that enable the company to distribute the pianos at a lower cost (like proximity to a seaport)it's the Estonia.

You can use the search function (a link is located in the title bar) to read archived threads and posts about these two pianos.. (i found 236 matches for August Forster and i remember when searching for Estonia information there were even more).

Both are great pianos so if you can afford it then get what you like.
It is very hard though to compare pianos when they are not side-by-side. Different acoustics, different condition of the instrument’s tuning, voicing and preparation, as well as other factors may influence your perception of the sound at any given day.

If indeed though you liked the AF better once hearing it and the Estonia again and the only factor is the cost, then spend the extra money for it. Over the next many years this instrument will reside in your home and you'll be looking (and hopefully playing it) every day.
You may spend a similar amount on a car, and most likely only a few years later it will have little value and be replaced...since the piano is there to stay for a much longer time, get what you like. Especially if as mentioned before, the price difference may be substantially less then 10K.

However I couldn't stress more the importance of afew other points. Buying from a local dealer, seeing and playing the actual piano that you'll get, and understanding what changes will occur to it in the future are all very important.

A local dealer will not only be in the position to give you better technical support if needed, but also inclined to prepare the piano better and make sure that it performs at its peak. After all, people in his local market may be visiting your home and playing/hearing your piano.
A good dealer can also explain to you the inner workings of the piano, what changes it will go through in the future, and what to expect. He would also be there to understand what you want and keep the instrument sounding to your liking in the future.
I think that Alex Hernandez of classical grands is definitely an example of an excellent dealer that can do all this and more.
By Alex's own words, Seattle is blessed with many good piano dealers, so I would seriously suggest that you buy locally and choose from the options that are available there. If you're really set on the AF, then wait a bit until a local dealer will pick the representation for this area, and check out the pianos once at their place. Classical grands used to carry the line, but as I understand it decided to go in a different direction. I doubt though that this line will remain without representation for long time in that area.

Seattledd,
Ori makes a good point about buying through a local dealer if at all possible. Good service is an important aspect of any sale. Classical Grands I know use to carry Forsters and has a good reputation.

I also would not get caught up on whether a piano should or should not be in Larry Fine's Tier 1 category. All that is really important is that Estonia is a fine piano as is the AF. Good luck in deciding which piano is best for you.

Rich

Alex has an excellent reputation...well deserved.

You should contact him.

seattledd - I played about a dozen Estonias and a dozen Forsters during my recent piano search. I ultimately preferred the Estonias, independent of price, although some Forsters also had a very nice sound. Don't assume you would *have* to "trade-up" on an Estonia to get a better instrument. You might or might not.

There is also something to be said for not stretching one's budget. Then one has more money left for lessons. JMHO. Play several brands, at several dealers, and tell us what you liked.

While the Estonia is a very nice instrument , my wife and I found the August Forster to be superior in all respects. Our final choice was made between a Bosie CS and the AF......the AF won hands down ,and we are dreaming of one day adding another AF to our home.

Having played both at reasonable length, I could believe that it could be a close run thing[/b] in favour of either[/b] an AF or[/b] a Bösendorfer CS, depending on one's particular tonal and action preferences, and/or the standard of preparation of the examples encountered. However IMHO the only aspect where an August Förster could ever win hands down[/b] over a similar-sized Bösendorfer CS would be the price.

- Michael B.

Thank you all for your input we really appreciate your thoughts. We have spent a good portion of time with Alex at Classical Grands playing the Estonia and his other brands. Unluckily as some have mentioned, He did stop carrying the August Forster brand, so we could not compare the two side-by-side. Your thoughts about price, location, and comparison of the sound between the two brands have given us much to think about. We will let you all know how we progress.
- Seattledd

A discussion like this is always interesting; all I can add is that it very much depends within which *particular mix of pianos* any one make or model is to be compared to.

For example, when we decided on the mix of our own brands, we made the decision in direct comparison to all other [available] German-European brands, trying from the very beginning to avoid all those who where perhaps a bit "too close" to each other and/or could bring a sense of *confusion* to our showroom.....

Estonia and A.F. are not that dissimiliar in many respects - IMHO - with the Estonia not only being less costly but also hugely appreciating at the same time.

Which was one of the reasons, at least we decided for it.

[Not bad if you don't sell all pianos in one day... ]

And there is precious little *confusion* when trying - like in our case - an Estonia besides a Sauter or Grotrian or what have you....

From our experience, consumers learn more about pianos and their own preference when they are given an opportunity to try from a variety of equally beautiful - but otherwise quite different instruments.

Good luck in your search!

Norbert

I had the opportunity to play a number of pianos when making my purchase. I had not played for a number of years and was hesitant to make the move to a big purchase without research. If you are comparing pianos in this price range I would also consider looking at Petrov, Vogel and Schimmel pianos although the Schimmels may be more in price. Good luck with your research.

We went through this decision back in 2003 or thereabouts - August Forster vs. Estonia. The Estonia was significantly less expensive, about $16K at the the time. We really liked the sound and the dealer (Cunningham's in Philadelphia, PA) was great! Low pressure, helpful, etc. I wanted to buy from them just becuase of their good customer service! We took a tour of their restoration factory as well, which was very interesting.

However, in the end we opted for the August Forster Model 170 from Altenburg Piano in NJ. The Altenburg dealership reminded me more of a car dealer than Cunningham's, but we did get good serivce and I would certainly recommend them to others. Just be sure to do your homework!

I could certainly see some people liking the sound of the Estonia over the August Forster. Compare them, and buy the one you like best...

Doug Atkinson

Sounds like it's going to be hard for you to compare, unless you do some traveling. CG did carry AF when I was shopping, but I chose Estonia. I didn't play the AF very much, my memory was that it didn't have the oomph and warmth that the Estonia did. Real precision terms, huh? But seriously, try and and go somewhere where you can play them both so you can make an informed choice. I love my Estonia 190 and it is a high-quality instrument materials wise. But, I know the AF is a great piano too.

Well . . . when we were piano shopping Alex did have an AF. We went with Estonia.

FWIW.

All I can add to this discussion is that I love my Estonia 190. It is just so musical, warm and lucious sounding. That said, I have never encountered an AF anywhere in my travels so there's no basis for comparison. Maybe I would prefer the AF if I played one. Who knows?

If you can afford either, buy the one you like better.

Good luck!

When I was piano searching a month ago, I found a dealer in my area that had the August Forster. I made a special trip to that dealer to see and play the Forster because I remember a Forster that I had played 20 years ago when I was shopping for my first grand. That Forster stayed with me; I was so impressed with it...the sound the action.

This go round, while I had played the Estonia 190 several times at another dealer, the first time I sat down at this Forster a month ago...WOW! My impressions were the same....the action...smooth, not light and fast, but very fluid. The sound....beautiful, clear, ringing...not sharp, but melifluous. Unfortunately, the dealer quoted me a price that was well out of my price range, and didn't appear to want to deal, so he still has the Forster and the carrying costs, and I have an M&H that I'm just as thrilled with.

I guess you can tell which camp I'm in.

Having carefully examined both the Estonia and the August Forster inside and out I can tell you that both are fine pianos. But... The AF is in an entirely higher class than the Estonia. At least in the area of physical build quality. Which of the two performs better in terms of touch and tone is, of course, another matter and is completely subjective.

But when a manufacturer is so concerned with attention to details that even the screws are pointing in the same direction, I'd have to say: Get the piano you like. But if you love them both, have a budget that allows, and are looking for the one that can at least technically be called the best, the AF would likely be your choice.

Ace30

Ace30, I like your post! I like that you are not afraid to state your opinion.

The politically correctness bothers me so much that I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone say there could be a "really nice Sejung piano that you like better than Bosie, so it's best to try them all and get the one you really like."

Wouldn't it be wonderful to find that Sejung piano? I can see the owner now -- "I tried and compared this piano against all the Bosies and Steinways, I really liked this one the best!"

Good grief!

As has been already stated touch and tone are subjective but key as to which piano you like best. Both pianos are fine instruments. As far as which one I prefer, August Forester hands down. The action feels much smoother to me, a notch above the Estonia IMHO and of course I really like the tone. Bottomline is forget all these recommendations and buy the one you like best.

Rich

The screws on my Estonia are turned in the same direction. But they are driven into MDF, which is something Foerster likely doesn't use.

I'm just so excited that some are willing to compare my piano to a Foerster. Especially since it cost 14,000 less.

It is the direction the screws are pointing, which determines what Tier the piano belongs to!

Of course, everything else is ... subjective. :p

Let me clarify. My original post was never intended to take a shot at Estonia. As I've stated before, today's Estonias are fine pianos. They offer very good build quality and performance for the money. But the phrase that bears repeating here is 'for the money'[/b].

What Estonia is NOT, is a piano that is in the same league as some of Europe's absolute finest. Performance will always be a matter of taste and opinion. But sit an AF next to an Estonia and any good unbiased tech can point out several technical aspects of the AF that are "better" than the Estonia.

I cannot emphasize enough; I see nothing wrong with what Estonia is. It's a great piano at a great price. The only problem I have is when overzealous sales staffs try to pass it off as some miracle piano with Bluthner-like build quality at one-fourth the price. That is not what an Estonia is and to me that's deceiving.

Ace30

I would assume that ONLY rookie salepeople would try to present the Estonia in the light of a Bluther! It (Estonia) is a terrific piano for the money and one would be hard-pressed to find a better European piano in that pricerange.

But as one who does sell Estonia, it is presented as a fine European hand-crafted instrument. It's clearly a Tier 2 piano and Bluthner is clearly a Tier 1 piano.

So, I don't think it would take an unbiased tech to point out the differences.

Most people (to whom I show the Estonia) have no idea of even where the country of Estonia is located! But all who see and play it are duly impressed, especially for the price.

Paul

Ace: "The AF is in an entirely higher class than the Estonia. At least in the area of physical build quality."

That's odd. I played about a dozen Estonias and about a dozen Forsters, at multiple dealers, new and used, during my recent search. I believe the current Estonias are clearly better in objective build quality, fit and finish, than current Forsters. Forsters (sometimes) have a nice, sweet tone, but I found the build quality to be quite uneven. The touch is too light. I think the Estonia sound is also more versatile than the Forster. That's why so many people are happy with them. The build on the Forster is not up to other Tier One German pianos (which is ok, I guess, since it also sells for much less than other Tier One German pianos).


I agree that (independent of price) there are better pianos than Estonia, but Forster would not be one that I would put on that very short list.

Jeffrey,

That *is* very odd indeed. And I don't think Larry Fine agrees with you. He places the AF at the top[/b] of tier one, while the Estonia remains in Tier two.

I admit, Estonia is such a good piano for the money that it impresses a lot players. But comparing today's AF of Labau Germany (and not the ones that used to be labeled AF but made by Petrof) to Estonia is not a comparison at all. The AF clearly comes out on top. Materials, craftsmanship, attention to detail, technical features, the AF has it all over the Estonia and I'm sorry if that offends die-hard Estonia fans. It's not meant to. But when a piano buying public gets convinced that a 25K Estonia compares to a 50K AF, that will be a sad day.

Ace30

I've never played an AF so this is merely for clarification purposes:

- Fine's most recent ratings (the 2000 edition) are based on pianos built in the 90's.
- In Tier One, the AF is placed third out of ten.

I have played well over a dozen AFs, from 170 to 215, used and new, in three different places. I was once looking very closely at buying one. I personally am puzzled that they appear in Tier One at all. They are a fine piano with a (sometimes) sweet tone, but are in no way superior to Sauters or Estonias or Shigerus.

It was particularly in respect of the attention to detail, technical features, craftsmanship etc. that I found the AFs wanting, in comparison to Estonia (which I do not own, I chose a Mason AA), and in comparison to all genuine Tier One pianos. The fit and finish was especially poor on the items I looked at.

People should make up their own minds, and not let Larry Fine do their decision making for them. I wonder how many people play the Forsters subconsciously influenced by Fine's system hoping to get a "cheap" Tier One German Piano, rather than play for themselves.

Ace - Do you by any chance sell Forster pianos or work in any professional capacity in the piano business? The reason I ask is that AFs do not sell for anything close to 50k (not the 190 and not the 215) in my market area. They sell for much much much less. I doubt they would sell at all at your stated price given the competition. At any rate, at the same price, I would prefer a similar sized Estonia, based on musicality.

Ace,
First, at least in this area, the AF is not being sold for prices that are even close to 50K. Nowdays, the price difference between what the AF 190 and the Estonia 190 is ACTUALLY sold for seems to be 5K-7K, and the AF is the more expensive of the two.
Of course, Estonia sells a lot more pianos in the US then AF, which supports your comment that Estonia is a great value...but I definitely don't agree with your other comments.

Both the AF and the modern Estonias are high quality instruments.

You assert the the AF have an advantage over the modern Estonias in terms of construction, build quality and materials...and even say that a tech can point these differences out, yet you don't support your claims.

You could say with the same certainty that dipping soundboards in milk prior to their installation in pianos will improve their quality, but until you support and explain your claims with any reasonable comments, they mean very little.

If you could point out where the Estonia in terms of design, parts, materials, workmanship or attention to detail falls behind the AF, then I'll be glad to correct your missconception and support it with facts.
After all, you said that any good tech can point it out, so please enlighten me, you see, I have a 2005 production AF in my showroom, and although it is a very high quality instrument, I don't find it (or any of the other AF's I inspected and worked on) to be any better then the Estonia in any objective terms of build quality, parts, materials or design.

And a note for you...since the lid material of Estonia has been discussed before, and this may be the only "point" you may come up with, then rest assured that this is a non issue.
It is a non issue not only because the lid has nohing to do with the performance of the piano, and not just because Estonia chose to use it for a few different reasons, but for another reason. You see, a "traditional" lid can be ordered per a consumer's request for an additonal $650-$750.
This amount is not in order to address a "higher" cost of general production, but in order to accommodate the special request by the consumer and a different than usual production process.

Now regarding your mentioning of Bluthner, if you knew anything about the design of this particular piano, you'd know that it is a very special designed instrument. You'd also know that many of its parts and materials are specifically made either for Bluthner, or by Bluthner, and they are different than those of any other piano.
I could explain in objective terms why it would cost more to make a Bluthner then either an Estonia or an AF. I could also explain why a Bosendorfer would cost more to make then either the Estonia or the AF...but it shouldn't make any of these instruments subjectively "better" to the player.

At this level, there isn't any instrument that is the "ultimate" performance piano. The piano sound and feel will often reflect the way that these high end manufacturers see the "ideal" instrument.
In the end, it is for the consumer to decide what he likes better, and the choice between different pianos and their sounds is what makes things interesting.

In terms of performance, each high end piano has its own unique sound and stronger elements. Sometimes I see very accomplished pianists preferring the Estonia over the Bluthner, Mason & Hamlin and Steinway pianos in our showroom. It isn't very rare. Other times, other pianists prefer the Bluthner or the Mason or something else...

It is interesting to note that many of those who preferred the Estonia had never heard of it before, and had no idea of its price.
All too often, consumers and sales people alike will assume that the more expensive the instrument is, the "better" it is.
But although price can give a good indication, there are other elements that may give production, distribution and overhead advantages to one company over the other, and this, as well as some other factors can bring two instruments of similar build quality to have a significant price difference between them.

Hmmmm, the Estonia is milky like a Steinway. The AF is rich and pure in tone like a German piano, more in the range of a Grotrian for instance. Don't see how to compare the two. It would be a matter of taste that would be the deciding factor. The two are not really in the same "taste" bin in my opinion.

If one sound appeals to you more than another then go that way. A trip to Altenburg would cost you $500 from Seattle (for one of you). Not a large expense when considering the total investment in a piano.

Of course a trip for the two of you and you can spend time in NYC and enjoy lots of "Cultya" and other piano stores too. Which is worth the investment in a plane ticket alone. This is the center of the civilized world you know.

The prices I quoted previously were retail prices. And since I was doing it from memory, the prices certainly wasn't exact. So if there were any glaring inaccuracies I apologize. And if the difference in street prices between an AF and Estonia really is only at or under 7K, then the AF is an even better buy that the Estonia. What I won't apologize for is my position on AF. And no Jeffrey, I've never sold a piano in my life.


Posted by Ori:
"If you could point out where the Estonia in terms of design, parts, materials, workmanship or attention to detail falls behind the AF, then I'll be glad to correct your missconception and support it with facts.[/b]

What arrogance. Ori, you sell Estonia. And I can see right now that there is nothing I can do to stop you from perpetuating the myth that Estonia is equal in build-quality to an August Forster. And this argument is so ridiculous that I think I'll end it right here.

Funny though, I don't see you stating that Bluthner (which you sell) is in the same class as Estonia. Imagine that.

Ace30

I think it was an honest mistake by Ori. Hahahaha!

Derick

I've known two dealers to privately compare the Estonia with their top-quality "B" pianos.

But comparing it with the Foerster 190 ( a fantastic piano) is good enough for me.

Frankly I didn't see anything in Ori's request that was arrogant, he asked for specifics. You've made a claim which you reiterate here yet provide nothing to back it up. Oh yes, you said the screws pointed in the same direction. Funny thing is I've seen that on Estonia's too (and I have little idea why that would make one piano superior to another). Frankly I'd like some idea of what specifically you see that makes one so superior to the other because frankly I don't get it. For you to pick up your toys and stomp off in a huff is probably appropriate, you made a claim, were asked to back it up and twice refused. That would seem to indicate to me that there's little substance to your argument.

" The AF clearly comes out on top. Materials, craftsmanship, attention to detail, technical features, the AF has it all over the Estonia and I'm sorry if that offends die-hard Estonia fans.[/b] "

No offense taken Ace. However, as I haven't played too many AF's, I'm understandably curious as to what specific materials, technical features etc., Estonias lack when compared to AF's. Could you please be more specific - not for argumentative reasons. Just because I'd like to know.

Thanks,
Roger

inquiring minds want to know Ace.

These could be wrong, of course:

Foerster 190: beech rim, beech bridges (?), single strung throughout, no duplex scale, Abel hammers, lumber core lid

Estonia 190: birch rim, beech bridges with maple caps (treble vertically laminated), single strung in middle register, low tension duplex scale, Renner hammers, MDF lid

The AF is one of the few pianos that uses leather key bushings!

The best thing to do is purchase both and play each one every other day. By the time you die, has one piano lasted better than the other?

If so that is the only one you should have purchased.

Schools, colleges, and universities do that.

Sorry about the leather key bushings. That is definitely a luxury piano feature.

"Foerster 190: beech rim, beech bridges (?), single strung throughout, no duplex scale, Abel hammers, lumber core lid

Estonia 190: birch rim, beech bridges with maple caps (treble vertically laminated), single strung in middle register, low tension duplex scale, Renner hammers, MDF lid"[/b]

For starters

Ace30

Ace,
With every post you make it is more evident that you can’t seem to provide any support to your claims.
Are you going to tell us in what elements of design, parts and materials, quality control or workmanship the AF has advantages over the Estonia, and explain the benefits of these elements, or are you just going to keep on making remarks with no meaning.

You said that any tech could point out the advantages, so please try to explain it to us all. I understand that you are not a tech…but maybe someone “told� you things that you think are valuable.
It seems that many are waiting to read your reasoned and explained comments.
Please give it a try.

You made a claim, please back it up.

Maybe you're reading too much into this. Maybe this has become personal for you. Maybe I just don't give a crap.

-Still waiting for you to admit that your own Bluthners is better than your mighty Estonias.

Ace30

Ace,
It isn’t personal.
You made an unsubstantiated claim, which I believe to be false, and I’m only waiting for you to substantiate and explain it…if you can

Regarding the Bluthner, it seems that you missed the point of my first comments to you entirely.

Bluthner is a very special instrument in terms of design and construction.
It has some of the most unique design and build features, all incorporated in order to get the sound that the company view as ideal. It may objectively cost a lot of money to build a Bluthner, but it doesn't have to be the sound that one likes because of it.

so in fact, in terms of performance I view the Bluthner, as well as Estonia,
Mason & Hamlin, Bosendorfer and others to be in the same class.
This is the class of non compromising companies that are going to extreme length to
have their pianos perform to what they view to be the ideal sound.

This is the class of high performance pianos, and in this group the personal preference
of the pianist is the most important.
The companies motivation is to make the absolute best piano they think is possible, and cost comes as a secondary consideration to quality.

They all use the best materials and maintain a very high level of attention to details. Some of these pianos also have unique design features meant to get their sound closer to where they want it to be.

In terms of construction and design, the Bluthner is very different then most other instruments. So much that one may say that it is in a class of its own... but it doesn't have to be viewd as a higher class, only different because it is so unique.

The cylindrical soundboard design is unique to Bluthner. The shape of the
hammers and the way they are hung on the shanks is like no other. The sectional rim construction is also seen on very few instruments...not to mention even Bluthner's fourth aliquot treble strings that is almost synonymous with the brand.

There are other very unique design and build elements to the Bluthner, and quite a few actually, but this is not the thread to discuss them, their purpose and the reasons why they are building these pianos they way they do at length.
I merely try to point out that it is a unique instrument.
Once one listens to or plays a Bluthner, he may grasp how different it is.

Some players like this unique sound more then any other piano...and others may not like it at all.
While the design and build qualities are what contributes to a sound a feel that is so
appealing to some, it is also the cause for other players to prefer different
instruments to the Bluthner...and sometimes, the Estonia is the preferred piano as I mentioned before.

So in terms of performance I can’t “admit� that my Bluthners are “better then my mighty Estonias�…because to many players they are not, and this is true also in regards to any other high quality pianos you may think of.

And even when it is clear that objectively it would cost more to build an instrument because of its unique design, it doesn’t mean that all, or even most people would prefer it over another high end, non compromising instrument.

Now, the AF, although a very fine piano is not nearly as unique in its design as Bluthners or Bosendorfers, and since it is more “traditionally� built, it is much closer to the Estonias then to any of these two.
However, it is entirely possible that some prefer the AF over the much more expensive to build Bosendorfers and Bluthners, in the same way that some may prefer the Estonia over these two.

So while it may objectively cost more to build a Bluthner or a Bosendorfer then either AF or an Estonia, it won’t make them automatically better, only different in the philosophy of what a great piano should sound like and the steps that they are taking in order to get to their target sound.

If we cancel the advantage that Estonia has over the AF in terms of less costly labor, shipping, distribution, and local tax laws…then I don't think that the AF has an objective advantage over the Estonia in terms of design, parts, materials and workmanship, or should be sold for more.

The fact that Estonia is so very sucssesful in a struggling industry and have no problem in selling their entire production in spite of the many price increases may support my view.

I agree that Estonias of only a few years ago were not in the same class as many of the tier one instruments, but due to the extensive upgrading done, mainly between 2002-2004 it is now a very different instrument then it used to be.

If you can explain why you think otherwise objectively, please feel free to explain yourself and back up your words.

So far, you provided no support to your claims.

Of the Estonias I have played and examined over the past two years, I can say without a doubt that they are very much on par with the build quality of the highly regarded german manufacturers. The Estonia may not have the unique features that make a Blüthner, or Bösendorfer unique, and make them a much more expensive instrument to manufacture, but the quality of materials and worksmanship of the current production Estonias is very, very good.

Okay Ori, you win...

Let us all chant: Est-o-nia! Est-o-nia!

And let us all now operate under the myth from your spin that Estonia is in the same class as some of Germany's best.

And in all seriousness, the suggestion that Estonia competes with pianos in the top of "tier one" is so ridiculous that if you'd actually make that claim, no amount of explaining otherwise is going to do any good. I'm certain there will be those who will continue to scream "he can't provide any facts to support his claim". But does it really matter? Would Ori, a die-hard Estonia dealer ever really concede that a brand he doesn't usually carry is better? Every tech I've ever talked to, including Larry Fine states that the AF is better built than the Estonia.

These were largely unbiased techs. And based on my own experiences with both makers, I must concur. And if that means I'm stepping on some Estonia dealer's toes, so be it. I'm not going to lie and support the pathetic sales pitch that Estonia is in that elite few number of piano makers just to increase your sales.

I'm not attacking Estonia at all. But I'm not lying about where it stands in the world of pianos either.

Ace30

To be compared to one of the best pianos in the world should be considered an honour for anybody.

Be it that Estonia is compared to August Foerster....or August Foerster to Estonia.

In case of doubt, anybody can of course always make a choce of both.[/b]

Norbert

Awfully dark territory, this area of 'this piano is BETTER than this piano'. If you want to discuss individual features, that is legitimate but still hard to establish clear superiority. When you get up into this price range they are all pretty well built, as far as I can see.

Better will always be at the judgement of the pianist.

My Charles Walter 190 is better than both!! Because I[/b] say so! :-)

And you are absolutely correct.

I went through a very similar process about a year ago. I read here, I talked to people. There was no way to make a decision purely on a mechanical basis -- AF and Estonias are fine pieces of work. Period.

So I went playing. The Estonias I played were very nice indeed -- including one for a local piano series which was kept in top shape for the pianists (most fairly recent up&coming Julliard & Curtis grads. Nothing really grabbed me.

Then I went to Altenburg and played quite a number of AFs. Was having the same reaction until the very last one I played. *That* one felt like an extension of me. My search was over. And it still feels like an extension of me.

It could as easily have gone the other way, if I hadn't found that AF and had found an an Estonia which felt like an extension of me.

And a plug for Altenburg -- Fred takes very good care of you.

Hi,

You guys got it all so wrong-- the best piano in the world is the one I own!

Have a cheerful day,

--c5

Well actually, yes -- it does! Talk is cheap. Rational, well-thought-out arguments substantiated with facts are priceless.

So Ace, please tell us in which ways the techs think they are better -- I'm truly curious at this point. I do own an Estonia, but I'm really just a begining pianist -- who is not even in the league of the rest of you regarding knowledge of pianos or playing ability. (I bought the piano because I liked it the most and I'm very happy with it).

But as an engineer, I'm really intrigued about how mechanical devices work, and would really like to know in which (non-subjective) ways the independent techs think the AF is "better".

And if you "don't give a crap", as you suggested in a previous post, then why do you keep on posting? At this point in the discussion, if you can't substantiate your beliefs with at least some basic facts (after repeated, and not unreasonable requests), then I'd suggest you quit and go home quietly...

No, no no Cerulean, MY M&H RBB is theeeee best!

GP

You all have just got to realize that despite common misconception, all pianos are created equal. The differences in price points, tiers and quality claims can be chalked up to pure whim. There are no true better or worse pianos.. ..

The PramberStonia is equivalent to the SteinDorfer is equivalent to the KohlMaha.

Ignore any such ridiculous (& of course inaccurate ) ratings and take your pick. ...and defend your choice.

Oh lord, I aint' goin' here! Oh what the heck - My piano is the best and it's an Estonia. But then again, I'm sure CJQ's - former member of this forum - AF is the best. For him at least. Hope he's not lurking out there.

Oh, good grief.

Estonia Rules. :p

Interesting, I wonder if there is still an AF dealer in the Washington. It seems like I am the only authorized AF dealer in British Columbia, but unfortunately can't afford to have a music store. Only shipping directly from Germany...

Just a quick google search seems to suggest the the Fandrich & Sons operation is a dealer for AF in Washington state.

fwiw, this thread is over 5 years old...

Again, comparing pianos simply by *brands* isn't going to be particularly conclusive.
First off, pianos must be compared on equal size, otherwise the comparison is meaningless.
Secondly, there always is a variance between even identical models - when we have 2 of same size pianos we set them up a little differently to give buyers a bit of a choice.
Thirdly - and this can be the most important - it makes sometimes also sense to compare pianos by *cost*.
Estonia definitely has the price advantage between the 2 which could allow you to consider for one size bigger than the A.F.
While this seems a contradiction to what I said before, the question is "what's the best piano - for same $$" Basically this is how many people shop today.
Not easy - you're the only one to sort this out.
Both very fine pianos.....
Norbert

holy cow!! whats worse than ignorantly reading dozens of 5 year old posts??? or that it ends yesterday with an infomercial? there's got to be a way to alert clueless onlurkers like me to stale threads.

Gutenberg:

Only a guy with a lawyer brain like you could have sneaked this out....

Feeling like a fool now myself....

Norbert

Seattledd,

If you are looking to hear both an Estonia and August Förster I would recommend Classic Pianos in Bellevue as they have both brands there along with Schimmel,Vogel Petrof, Blüthner,Bösendorfer, and Steinway, American and Hamburg. They are the nicest piano store, Fred Riley helped me find the perfect piano for me, a Schimmel and I couldn't be happier with it. I can't say enough good things about people there.