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You could always manage without a SSD drive by increasing the RAM buffer amount of library loaded into RAM. You could also increase latency settings to avoid drop outs whenever you play a key that's not already in RAM. How well it works depends completely on demands of your repertoire. If you are playing fairly easy music, it should be fine. If you are playing very advanced music, you may have to increase latency to an unnatural level, but it would still work.
My teacher was able to play very advanced repertoire but only had a standard rotating disk at the time, and it worked fine. You could compensate for the latency and everyone has a different level of tolerance for experiencing latency. Also, depending on how infrequent you practice on an acoustic piano, your memory or demand for instant response could be mitigated (trained) as compared to your expectation from an acoustic piano. It feels weird but if you stay away from an acoustic piano long enough, you can get used to it even if you don't like it initially. I think this is why everyone you ask would give you a different answer because everyone has a different level of tolerance to these things. It's like asking someone if the weather feels warm. What's warm to one person isn't that warm to another. My teacher has no problem dealing with latency while I do. It has nothing to do with skill. In any case, everyone can compensate if willing. Latency irritates me, but my teacher is not too concerned with it, though she did make the upgrade from laptop to a desktop PC with SSD now, primarily for a much better soundcard.
Ideally you should have an SSD drive. USB 3.0 if it's external. A 4-year-old laptop with Core i5 should have a USB 3 port. BTW, Core i5 does not have 4 cores, only 2. It supports 4 thread with 2 cores. Basically, the other 2 cores Windows think you have is not real. I would think external SSD with USB 3 should be fine. The best solution is to by-pass the SATA/USB interface and go with PCIe SSD. However, that requires a desktop computer, which is always going to be better if space and mobility is not a primary concern. Thanks for your thoughts, 8 Octaves! Yes - Luckily, I'm not a virtuoso (Yet!), so that "the demands of my repertoire" are relatively low. I don't play very advanced music (probably late beginner to low intermediate.) I understand what you say about latency and everyone's individual tolerance for it. I'd say that my tolerance for it is pretty low, as I DO occasionally play on an acoustic. However, I'm relieved to report that there is no problem in that regard with CFX on my system. My Core i5 laptop does NOT have USB3 ports, so I'm not sure how well an external SSD would have worked. However, based on what I see so far, I don't see the need for one. If an SSD was necessary, I'd probably have to clone my internal HD to one and install it - but that doesn't look like it'll be necessary, thankfully.
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That's great you've got it working so quickly! Load times would be cut drastically using an SSD. I'd recommend using the compact option when auditioning - these use sample stretching (1 sample set across several notes) so aren't good enough for recording but they'll give you a good idea of the range of library settings and will load much more quickly.
Unless I've missed something the Aria engine which contains Garritan doesn't have a record option - Pianoteq is rare amongst VIs in that respect. You'll either have to run Garritan inside a host - that's the most effective and reliable way - or perhaps record using the free Audacity app? - not sure how to do that myself. There are dozens of hosts to choose from. Cantabile is very popular and cheap. But there might also be some free options. Perhaps start a new thread to get some advice on that.
All settings can be saved either in Garritan or in a host.
Last edited by dire tonic; 09/22/15 06:49 PM.
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We could add Ivory which has a record option (in fact it is sold with Ivory Cantabile).... But not a recorder like Pianoteq which is always on. Note, according to http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/VST_Plug-ins, "VST instruments (VSTi) (such as synths) and real-time VST effects (that change the audio data while playing or recording) are not yet supported." Then I don't think you could record yourself with audacity.
Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/22/15 05:54 PM.
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Oddly, the first note I play seems to get cut off prematurely, That could be HDD power saving. When I first got EWQLP, I spent weeks trying to sort out that problem. When I first started playing, or, when I stopped playing for a while, that problem would occur. It's because the drive has shut down to some degree to save power. The standard Windows power saving settings had no effect. I ended up purchasing a utility called Driver Power Manager, which solved the problem. The reason the first bit of the note plays ok is because the first bit of the note is loaded into memory when the instrument is loaded - it's always there, ready to play immediately. (and it has to be that way, for low latency) Greg.
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Can I win a horserace riding a goat...
... the only problem I seem to have - the goat cannot even carry the saddle.
Strange talking over here!
Nah, you don´t need a horse: I´m riding my dog.
MP11, ACD, RME Fireface UC
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1. How does one record? (That's probably disabled until I register, but I thought that I'd ask.) Is there a way to have it automatically record by default, like Pianoteq does? (That feature is a great help in coping with "Red Dot Syndrome ) There is a "Standalone Player" that lets you play back your MIDI files or save them to WAV according to Garritan. http://www.garritan.com/UserManuals/CFXConcertGrand/Content/standalone.htmThe other option is by running Garritan CFX as a plug in for a host program called a Digital Audio Workstation or DAW. You record your playing using your favorite DAW. You could check out Reaper, a full function DAW that's pretty affordable which you could download and runs in eval mode for 60-days.
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1. How does one record? (That's probably disabled until I register, but I thought that I'd ask.) Is there a way to have it automatically record by default, like Pianoteq does? (That feature is a great help in coping with "Red Dot Syndrome ) There is a "Standalone Player" that lets you play back your MIDI files or save them to WAV according to Garritan. http://www.garritan.com/UserManuals/CFXConcertGrand/Content/standalone.htmThe other option is by running Garritan CFX as a plug in for a host program called a Digital Audio Workstation or DAW. You record your playing using your favorite DAW. You could check out Reaper, a full function DAW that's pretty affordable which you could download and runs in eval mode for 60-days. Thanks for that info, 8 Octaves. I got it now. What's confusing is that I have been using the "Standalone Player" exclusively. (I have no DAW to use CFX as a plug-in.) But the "Record" button was never active. Now I see that you need to name the file you're recording to and save it first, and only then is the record button available to use. That seems kind of backwards to me, and I'll just have to remember it and get used to it. Thanks.
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Oddly, the first note I play seems to get cut off prematurely, That could be HDD power saving. When I first got EWQLP, I spent weeks trying to sort out that problem. When I first started playing, or, when I stopped playing for a while, that problem would occur. It's because the drive has shut down to some degree to save power. ah!, that does seem plausible...
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Thanks for that info, 8 Octaves. I got it now.
What's confusing is that I have been using the "Standalone Player" exclusively. (I have no DAW to use CFX as a plug-in.) But the "Record" button was never active.
Now I see that you need to name the file you're recording to and save it first, and only then is the record button available to use. That seems kind of backwards to me, and I'll just have to remember it and get used to it.
Thanks.
Yeah, totally backwards, but then again, it's made by people who drive on the wrong side of the street.
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Thanks for that info, 8 Octaves. I got it now.
What's confusing is that I have been using the "Standalone Player" exclusively. (I have no DAW to use CFX as a plug-in.) But the "Record" button was never active.
Now I see that you need to name the file you're recording to and save it first, and only then is the record button available to use. That seems kind of backwards to me, and I'll just have to remember it and get used to it.
Thanks.
Yeah, totally backwards, but then again, it's made by people who drive on the wrong side of the street. One final question in this thread (for now, at least... ) - I've figured out how to record to a WAV file. Now, how do I play it back from within CFX?I can play it in Windows Media Player, of course. But that requires exiting out of CFX totally. Thanks.
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I don't know about Garritan CFX, but a generic way to handle record/replay is to use a DAW (Reaper by exemple). You record yourself in MIDI, replay the MIDI track thru the CFX virtual piano and when every thing is OK, you "render" it in a WAV or a MP3 file. A DAW could also cut the track. (You can leave the recording on during multiple takes, and when you have a good take, cut the track at the right place).
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I can play it in Windows Media Player, of course. But that requires exiting out of CFX totally. This sounds to me like a bug. You could try this workaround which sometimes works. Copy and paste the file to a new file with a new filename. Then use Windows Media Player to play the new file rather than the one that's in use by G-CFX.
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No, this doesn't seems to me like a bug. Softwares which need low latency open the sound card driver with an exclusive mode (bypassing the software mixer). Then we have to quit them to use the sound card with an other software.
Reaper for example can use many modes ASIO (exclusive), WASAPI (exclusive or shared, you have the choice), DirectSound and some other... Pianoteq has also the first 3 modes.
Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/23/15 06:02 PM.
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I see; thanks for the clarifications. In that case, my suggested workaround would not work. Sorry my experience with Windows is more for business use. For music, I use a Mac, and my Mac does not require any drivers for Pianoteq, USB mics, VST's, or anything audio. Everything works together without needing a whole bunch of drivers.
This explains why I could watch Netflix and play the DP through the Mac at the same time, but can't do it on the on PC. I always wondered about that.
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About the latency, I have tried the WASAPI (Windows Audio Session API) in both mode (shared ore exclusive), and an ASIO emulation (ASIO4All).
The round trip time (i.e. the time fom a sound to get out of my sound card... and to get back to my DAW) is near 20ms with the exclusive mode and also with ASIO. I have 60ms with the shared mode. (Note: My DAW measures my selection with a 10ms precision!)
Then the software mixer comes on Windows with some disadvantages.
I have read that Windows 10 has some optimizations, but it seems that we could still need using an exclusive mode.
Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/23/15 05:49 PM.
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I own the CFX, as well as a brand new Macbook Pro 3.1GHz Dual-core Intel Core i7, 16GB ram. The samples are on a external SSD drive, connected through USB 3 to my computer.
But still... If I play very fast passages, once in a while I do get very tiny drop-outs. Next to that, the CFX takes a long time to load before you can actually use it. Especially within recording software such as Logic.
However, the CFX sounds AMAZING! IMHO better than the Ivory AMD which I also own.
Steinway & Sons M (Hamburg), Kawai MP11SE, Rösler 108 Past: Yamaha N3, Kawai MP8, Kawai CA51, GEM RP3, F. Schmid & Co.
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I own the CFX, as well as a brand new Macbook Pro 3.1GHz Dual-core Intel Core i7, 16GB ram. The samples are on a external SSD drive, connected through USB 3 to my computer.
But still... If I play very fast passages, once in a while I do get very tiny drop-outs. Next to that, the CFX takes a long time to load before you can actually use it. Especially within recording software such as Logic. On the Advanced tab, what sort of readings are you showing for:- Inst-disk Pre-caching Queued (after playing intensive polyphony or sustain glisses for a while) Disk loss
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I just purchased and installed Garritan CFX on a 10-year old laptop computer and thought my experience might be useful for others.
**COMPUTER** I am on the fence to buy a new computer. The old 2007 mac works fine and I like the form factor. The ~new SSD is lightening fast, but Apple secretly crippled the bus speed with sloppy firmware, effectively slowing down data transmission inside the computer.
And the computer gets very hot and fans are particularly noisy when watching videos on Adobe Flash. That is a function of terrible Adobe software, an older graphics card hardware that can not efficiently render modern video algorithms, and a huge defective batch of NVidia graphics cards (likely incompetent use of no-lead solder). (Note some other PC makers used the same lousy NVidia graphics cards and pulled the same bus crippling trick so this is not only an old Apple issue).
Computer: 2007 MacBook Pro (2.2ghz Core2Duo, 4GB RAM, 256GB Samsung 850EVO SSD)
Keyboard: Kawai es100 with $8 MIDI-USB cable
Audio: external 16/44 only DAC, portable dedicated headphone amp, Sony open headphones
The computer was running OSX Snow Leopard until yesterday. But Garritan does not support that old c.2008 operating system and noted some OSX decompression software is defective. Indeed CFX would not install. So I upgraded to OSX El Capitan today (surprisingly, El Capitan is running faster and slightly cooler than my old Snow Leopard was).
**GARRITAN CFX** CFX took about 20 minutes to install compact; no issues.
To put my observations into perspective, I have played instruments as a child but am new to the piano. I am also hyper-sensitive to latency.
CFX sounds great in compact form. With a 10-year old computer, I noticed right away that there was some irritating latency at standard settings. With main goal of minimizing latency I tried the following settings as a first effort:
- Sample rate 44.1k (this is min) - Buffer size 128 (min is 32) - Polyphony 64 (128 is max) - Max Engine RAM allocation 3GB - Inst. Disk Pre-Caching 256kb (this is max) - Performer Imaging
Buffer size below 128 resulted in clicks; buffer size at 2048+ caused latency to became incredibly unrealistic. Garritan said higher buffer size increases sound quality. At my skill level I don't need more polyphony.
Anyways, this is a nice upgrade to the es100 sounds.
**PRELIMINARY DAY 1 CONCLUSION** This experiment was partly to see the viability of:
1) keeping the old laptop as is, 2) upgrading the old laptop (larger SSD and 6GB RAM), or 3) purchasing a new laptop.
I think CFX compact (with "light" settings) runs pretty good in my 10-year old laptop; but I still sense a bit of latency with the above "light" settings (although that may partly be due to the recording hall acoustics). And it is a shame to not take full advantage of all CFX can do. So upgrading this old laptop looks like false economies. The old laptop is fine for now but I will be shopping for a new(er) high-performance laptop this spring.
Based on this very simple test, I would suspect even 5-year old computers with sufficient RAM and a good SSD would play quite well with CFX.
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That laptop is just a smidge better than the one I ditched three years ago.
My Dell with Core Duo was just adequate for running VSTs, but it could not run with the lowest latency setting.
So I'd say it's time for a new computer.
Do you need portability? A desktop can give you more performance for less money.
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Agreed MacMacMac. I need a laptop and large SSDs are so inexpensive now, even a mid-line laptop should be just fine for CFX.
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