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Well, I think I have a solution to the dilemma ....

See if this makes sense ....

The Bdim7 contains the notes .... B D F Ab.

The D is a tone in the Eb major scale.

So I could just call this chord Ddim7 because it contains the same notes as Bdim7.

Then I can code it as VIIdim7.

Problem Solved ?

Ok ... that works.

And it defines the actual root of the chord.

Makes sense to me.

One area that I keep getting a little confused is whether or not to code chords with the numerical portion when that chord position implies that number.

For example:

The "Two" chord in the family of chords is a minor 7th chord.

So, when I code it I could just put ii and that should mean the Two Chord minor 7th.

So, it is not necessary to put ii7 ?

But what if the chord is to be a dominant Two chord ? II7 ? or just II

Gets confusing.

There is the question about the role of Roman Numerals, period. They are functional - they deal with function and degrees. That is fine for a general understanding. When we study that in theory in the usual books we tend to encounter, there are dry exercises away from music. There are the four part harmony exercises (choral). And when there are examples from music, that music is carefully selected to fit the theory.

Music is not that cut and dry. Composers will throw things in to be deliberately ambiguous or vague to make the music more interesting, less predictable, or smoothly slide into unexpected places when you least expect it. Or in order to create moods -- like a D major chord while in C major, not because it is acting as a V/V for G or any role whatsoever, but simply because it sounds cool.

Well, if the purpose of R.N.'s is to describe function and find the place (degree) in a particular musical key, what about using them when that is happening, sort of for broad outlines, but not sweating it for some of the in-between stuff? What is the purpose of analyzing music (when you're not doing it for passing tests)? It's to get a picture to help you play the piece; to help find patterns which again helps you in playing and remembering. So why not use what is most apt for any particular section?

Well, unless I am "directed" otherwise ....

I think what I am going to do in order to utilize this Roman Numeral coding concept to help me play in different keys is this ...

I will utilize capital numerals to indicate a major triad and lowercase numerals to indicate minor triads. I will then include any numerical modifiers which I deem necessary for clarity.

Simple.

Keystring: I think I agree with what you're saying. When I think of the harmonic movement of a piece, it's not strictly a roman numeral analysis of how things relate to the tonic.

For example, take rhythm changes. It starts with I, VI, ii, V, iii, VI, ii, V, but then, you have F-7, Bb7 and Ebmaj. It think of that sequence as a two-five to the IV chord. So I don't look at the F-7 as a minor V, but rather as the ii of the upcoming Ebmajor.

I think that's what you're saying.

By the way, DMD, you picked a tough one with Tenderly because is has some odd harmonic movements. Better to start with Autumn Leaves or Satin Doll, which have simpler harmonic movements.

Discussions like this are a goldmine for us "wannabes" , I always feel a little guilt when I apply the transpose knob , it is like cheating , and you are getting stuck in your development.

I rather play a little erratic in an unknown key and free myself of the guilt , I think my audience are receiving my energies and this is the most important.

To be able to absorb this I must decode some music theory, which I have omitted in my autodidact way of playing.

Absolutely. There has been a change in the key center to the IV of the present key.

I think I saw some notation someplace where they did something like this ... IV: ii V7 I

It can get messsy if there are numerous key changes and back and forth.


BTW ... I have been searching the web for published leadsheets utilizing Roman Numeral notation instead of specific keys.

I have not found any. You would think they would be available considering the use the jazz musicians might make of them.

Another shortcut for a "normal" scale is:
1 + 1 + 1/2 + 1 + 1 + 1/2, where 1=wholestep, 1/2=halfstep
or
2 + 1/2 + 2 + 1/2

This always becomes a scale independent of the starting point , and I guess there must be a way to describe any chord relative to that scale (just a thought)

It is not. It is a minor chord.
For example, in C major, the ii chord is D minor, D-F-A.


ii7 means you include the seventh. In the example of C major, ii7 would be D minor 7th, D-F-A-C.

Yes, I guess that is true.

I have been playing jazz music for a while now so I guess I think in terms of 4 note chords when I think of the family of chords.

So ... anyway that helps clear up my confusion. Thanks.

Heather's 100% correct. The ii chord in C major is a Dmin triad. Just to clarify further, all of the fundamental chords in a key are triads. Seventh on top of chords, as Heather says, are things that are included or added.

And just to throw in what some might see as a monkey wrench, there are NO fully diminished seventh chords in a major key. Which isn't to say fully diminished sevenths chords don't get used all the time in major keys. Because they do.And there's a common practice that mostly _describes_ very well how and when they get used.

Notice "described" rather than "prescribed." But the point is, as Heather has raised: the fundamental chords in a key are triads. They're not seventh chords.

Of course, if all of your theory comes a jazz textbook or someone who only teaches jazz then that story may come with different spin that unfortunately and unknowingly exclude the hundreds of years of music that predate jazz.

The most common way sevenths come about in the classical tradition in the hundreds of years that predate jazz is through the use of a suspension. Suspensions usually come in a pattern which is PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE. But sevenths in classical music come about in many ways and sometimes they simply show up. But that's another story for another time.

So let's say with a tune like Take the A Train we wanted to use RNs to represent the chords. We might look at it as:

Two measures of Imaj7 followed by two measures of II7 followed by one measure of ii-7 and one measure of V7. That gets us six measures into the A section. Then close out the A section with the 2-measure turnaround of your choice: iii - vi - ii - V or whatever.

Notice the II7 chord (and uppercase letters) which in the key of C refers to a D7 chord. Notice too there's no mention of the #11 which we all know is a prominent feature of Take the A Train.

An experienced jazz musician will hear that #11 in the melody (and really, they'll know in advance through experience that it's there in the melody).

So while some might include #11 in a chart and you'll probably see it in the Real Book and elswhere, the reality is a decent ear can, should, and will hear the #11. And adjust accordingly.

In Take the A Train "adjust accordingly" could mean adding a 9th to the chord. It could mean adding other things. Or, for someone at the beginning of the learning curve it might mean playing a chord with fewer notes and not worrying too much about the #11 over the D7 chord. Because the #11 resolves immediately upwards by a half step to the fifth of the ii-7 chord. That's the classic "chromatic escape!"

The question is: do we have to support that sort of thing? Or is it enough to just not clash with it? The answers that come from both questions supply the accompaniments that work for Take The A Train.

... About the turnaround shown above without 7ths: a professional jazz musician will know sevenths needs to be added even through they're not expressed in the example.

And an experience professional likely will know a iii- vi - ii - V turnaround has many variants including iii-7 - bIII7 - bVI7 to bII7. And except for the iii-7 the other sevenths in that particular case can be flat sevenths or major sevenths (in which case, with major sevenths, that progression is known as the "Tad Dameron" turnaround).

It's true, there's a lot of shorthand and abbreviation that goes into the practical use of RNs. That goes back to something practical that jjo pointed out which is RNs might best be applied at first to a simple tune, such as Autumn Leaves - rather than something more complex, such as Tenderly. I agree with that practicality.

However, musicians can and will conceptualise RNs in many slightly different but and related ways. And common practice and goals will bring many things together. "Common practice" meaning everyone shares ideas about how the music is supposed to sound.

In that case what'll save the day is when abbreviations and shorthands are driven by the EAR and HEARING rather than by rules and more rules. Or for those who don't want to rely on the ear detailed charts that plot out each and every note can be a solution. But, we're talking here about the improvisatory side of jazz. So a detailed chart really isn't an answer even though it's a solution ..

Of course in the beginning. a few rules can help to create a basic understandin.

But real bandstand experience and/or good teaching and simply listening to great jazz recordings can help learners to see how rules give way to exceptions and how exceptions eventually aren't even exceptions.

And, really, even describing something as an "exception" does a disservice. Why? Because if a so-called "exception" shows up all the time why call it an "exception?"

So if your theory text is always talking about avoid exceptions and stick to the rules you might want to question whether or not you have a "good" theory text - or a theory text that takes an easy and dangerous road that promotes artificial rules and artificial examples.

Returning to Heather's statement about a ii chord in C major is a D minor triad. Again, that's true, and correct and there's no more to it than that. Except there are a million ways to dress up a ii chord without adding a 7th. (Which Heather knows of course!!)

To see how to dress up a ii chord without a 7th look and listen in the Bach chorales. Or check out a book of Bill Evans' transcriptions. Or LISTEN to music in general (Mozart, for example) and see if you can hear where a ii chord surfaces and how it's treated in that moment where you hear it.

What it comes down to is having a sound grasp of the basics is so terribly important. Without that it's possible and easy to float along in a sea of misunderstandings and ambiguities without knowing that just a tiny bit of theory, well-applied, can resolve TONS and HEAPS of questions and obstacles that otherwise seem unrelated to each other.

Avoid theory and avoid the use of the ear at your own risk! Stick to rules and artificial examples at your own risk! Better, look for musicians and teachers with experience who can help you with the unknowns. They''all also be able to suggest books that can help. Although in the end, music is about hearing and theory is just something that helps us describe what we're hearing.

Hope this is helpful!!

Rolfie, it's 1 + 1 + 1/2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1/2. Or in your terminology, number of tones, and semitones 2 + 1/2 + 3 + 1/2.

You missed a tone, there are three whole tones in the latter sequence.

I'm assuming you mean major scale, by normal scale. Example C major scale:

C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C (next octave above)
.....1...1..1/2...1...1...1..1/2

Since the C major scale is all white notes, you can see the half steps are where there are two adjacent white notes. You need whole steps in all the transitions where there are black keys in between, otherwise you would end up on a black key.

Well, my first post I started simple because this gets convoluted fast.



On a violin (no frets) I can play along in any key just by ear. But the keyboard if one understands it, is a like a decoder for all this stuff.
If the original goal was to play anything but C. Be kind to your mates and familiarize yourself with the keys of G and D. Have a reason to play a tune in a certain key, besides just because you can.

thanks for notifying, You are of course utterly correct ...

Yes as to the musical concepts. The rub is that the physical piano keys that you have to get your fingers to are in different places for the same musical function for each key.

So, for a beginner, it's best to divide the project into two major steps:

First learn the keys. Play scales in all twelve keys. Pick a simple tune you really like, and play it in all twelve keys. You can use software to transpose it for this if you like. The point is just to get comfortable physically with where your fingers need to go in each key. Do likewise with a couple more tunes that you really like, but less simple than the first.

That's the first step. Once you have your head and fingers wrapped around that, then you're ready for step two, tackling the Romans. The idea is that that makes the learning curve less steep.

..Regarding the difference in the different key represent a physical difference in how to place your fingers ...

Is there any system here , or rule of thumb ?

^ yes, the key signatures.

For example: In C major there are no sharps and no flats. In E flat major the Es, Bs and As are all flat. So in C, to play a I triad, one uses three white keys. In E flat, one uses two black keys and one white key. That's what John is getting at when he mentions the scales. Those will help you get used to which black and white keys you use in each key.

I wonder if rolfie was referring to fingering. For example, while a C major scale would start with fingers 1,2,3 (RH) if starting on the tonic, in Db major you would not start the Db with the thumb, so for the first three notes you would not use fingers 1,2,3.

A c major consists of the intervals 1 3 5, some info from many sites

Are those intervals half - steps?

I cannot get it fit, because from e to f note, there are 2 half= 1 whole step, or a whole note in between right?