 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
42 members (busa, clothearednincompo, Doug M., 36251, Davidnewmind, Dfrankjazz, brdwyguy, benkeys, Burkhard, 5 invisible),
1,119
guests, and
253
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 722
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 722 |
Whatever. I wouldnt have contributed if Mark hadn't gotten my brain humming when comparing composers and ice cream! But aside from the merits of this thread, it got me thinking that I get the most out of this website when I can ask about technical problems or read what much better players than me are discussing about techniques. So, it just would be nice to find those sorts of discussions separated, in the same way piano tuning has its own category.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600 |
I think that would be an unnecessary separation. Do you really have much trouble noticing the threads you're interested in?
Re the other complaints about this thread and JoelW's other ones like it: I might view the complaints as more well taken if this section were more active than it is, but it isn't. Sometimes hours go by with no new posts at all, which isn't bad but it's unusual for such a long-standing site with such large membership. Do people really feel it would be better for the site to be without these threads of Joel's? Especially unless it's a site with higher activity, I would think we don't want to discourage activity unless it's abusive or offensive, or if it somehow prevents other activity. If it's just that you think it's stupid, I would think it's sufficient just to ignore it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 464
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 464 |
My last post was serious. It was an analogy about composers as fighter-boxers, in an arena in which composers fight/duel, i.e., a piano competition. In that, Debussy can be powerful stuff, but a bit esoteric for some audience members. No doubt Debussy was more versatile and innovative than Sergei Tchaikovsky II. The judges in (amateur) piano competitions may be at least neutral re: liking Debussy vs. Rachmaninoff. But with audiences, I'm betting that Rachmaninoff will have more punch. I could be wrong.
Last edited by doctor S; 05/28/16 08:46 PM. Reason: typos
"I will hear in Heaven." Beethoven
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 722
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 722 |
I think that would be an unnecessary separation. Do you really have much trouble noticing the threads you're interested in? Yes! Both with that and getting distracted.  Was just an idea instead of getting embroiled in censorship discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
This idea that Rachmaninoff was the same as Tchaikovsky seems to be quite prevalent. I think people should stop spreading it. 
Regards,
Polyphonist
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600 |
This idea that Rachmaninoff was the same as Tchaikovsky seems to be quite prevalent. I think people should stop spreading it. He didn't say they're the same. It's metaphorical, and it works -- certainly clearly regarding what docS said ("versatile, innovative") and I think in general.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600 |
Next: Bach's 371 chorales Here's my opinion: 192 141 68 59 53 69 86 97 212 329 143 1 190 188 250 341 60 126 110 328 57 34 311 254 342 42 284 326 182 175 72 344 247 125 351 322 101 51 289 44 140 283 211 83 366 183 317 327 162 268 127 321 62 358 154 116 133 151 15 238 11 148 336 338 135 281 279 104 121 3 13 32 244 334 291 331 313 73 229 259 149 6 136 270 184 225 274 102 297 253 170 346 118 120 172 286 332 353 197 178 256 315 107 100 5 153 216 215 181 168 237 166 369 304 217 269 266 164 124 156 45 252 137 261 112 111 41 22 345 248 205 325 17 295 362 146 122 201 210 257 243 260 265 18 87 245 90 99 234 316 226 98 288 109 119 272 157 142 301 348 79 16 39 152 84 103 296 227 131 308 290 163 280 52 357 167 115 219 89 368 320 370 285 56 312 30 2 49 77 287 21 128 298 165 65 27 50 187 242 236 46 340 20 292 349 220 324 23 92 147 356 48 14 180 63 364 38 134 160 232 277 239 195 352 224 207 185 139 132 61 150 273 129 271 174 113 294 80 300 82 263 302 94 36 209 9 47 186 218 4 221 24 318 347 354 169 91 213 159 276 28 350 64 29 75 367 19 10 223 305 198 26 71 337 371 95 310 171 43 106 228 293 58 335 179 299 262 275 130 246 233 330 200 37 8 93 365 241 214 7 339 76 66 31 282 319 222 177 12 161 360 333 194 249 303 81 176 123 355 189 307 25 35 204 206 199 203 278 264 363 361 255 323 359 158 173 240 230 117 88 314 74 114 202 235 193 33 108 96 67 251 191 155 54 306 78 70 138 196 343 258 144 309 105 55 231 208 267 145 85 40 Well done -- I only disagree on a couple of them, and I know it's just a quibble, but I don't agree that 86 is just above 97, they belong the other way around. True, #86 arguably has the stronger cadences, but 97's voice leading is superior, not that it's bad in 86 -- I mean, Bach was pretty good with voice leading all around. Anyway also you can't tell me that 97 isn't more skillfully songed, even if it's just by a smidgen. It doesn't always show in every performance, but if you don't think so, check out the definitive recording of the complete chorales by the Stüppgrob Barbershop Quartet. Actually I think it's clear from almost any recording but the Stüppgrob obviously is the best. Good job though -- I agree on the rest of your ranking. Edit Reason: two were accidentally switched Good job -- I would have nailed you on that if you didn't correct it. BTW I hope nobody thought that post was serious. Looks like it might have been assumed it was. I have no idea what chorale #86 and chorale #97 are. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
|
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
Next: Bach's 371 chorales Here's my opinion: 192 141 68 59 53 69 86 97 212 329 143 1 190 188 250 341 60 126 110 328 57 34 311 254 342 42 284 326 182 175 72 344 247 125 351 322 101 51 289 44 140 283 211 83 366 183 317 327 162 268 127 321 62 358 154 116 133 151 15 238 11 148 336 338 135 281 279 104 121 3 13 32 244 334 291 331 313 73 229 259 149 6 136 270 184 225 274 102 297 253 170 346 118 120 172 286 332 353 197 178 256 315 107 100 5 153 216 215 181 168 237 166 369 304 217 269 266 164 124 156 45 252 137 261 112 111 41 22 345 248 205 325 17 295 362 146 122 201 210 257 243 260 265 18 87 245 90 99 234 316 226 98 288 109 119 272 157 142 301 348 79 16 39 152 84 103 296 227 131 308 290 163 280 52 357 167 115 219 89 368 320 370 285 56 312 30 2 49 77 287 21 128 298 165 65 27 50 187 242 236 46 340 20 292 349 220 324 23 92 147 356 48 14 180 63 364 38 134 160 232 277 239 195 352 224 207 185 139 132 61 150 273 129 271 174 113 294 80 300 82 263 302 94 36 209 9 47 186 218 4 221 24 318 347 354 169 91 213 159 276 28 350 64 29 75 367 19 10 223 305 198 26 71 337 371 95 310 171 43 106 228 293 58 335 179 299 262 275 130 246 233 330 200 37 8 93 365 241 214 7 339 76 66 31 282 319 222 177 12 161 360 333 194 249 303 81 176 123 355 189 307 25 35 204 206 199 203 278 264 363 361 255 323 359 158 173 240 230 117 88 314 74 114 202 235 193 33 108 96 67 251 191 155 54 306 78 70 138 196 343 258 144 309 105 55 231 208 267 145 85 40 Well done -- I only disagree on a couple of them, and I know it's just a quibble, but I don't agree that 86 is just above 97, they belong the other way around. True, #86 arguably has the stronger cadences, but 97's voice leading is superior, not that it's bad in 86 -- I mean, Bach was pretty good with voice leading all around. Anyway also you can't tell me that 97 isn't more skillfully songed, even if it's just by a smidgen. It doesn't always show in every performance, but if you don't think so, check out the definitive recording of the complete chorales by the Stüppgrob Barbershop Quartet. Actually I think it's clear from almost any recording but the Stüppgrob obviously is the best. Good job though -- I agree on the rest of your ranking. Edit Reason: two were accidentally switched Good job -- I would have nailed you on that if you didn't correct it. BTW I hope nobody thought that post was serious. Looks like it might have been assumed it was. I have no idea what chorale #86 and chorale #97 are. So I gathered.
Regards,
Polyphonist
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,656
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,656 |
Next: Bach's 371 chorales Bach did not compose chorales.
SRF
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600 |
Next: Bach's 371 chorales Bach did not compose chorales. In the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo: 'Splain! (You mean he only harmonized them?) If that's what you mean, interesting point. I suppose.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,060
7000 Post Club Member
|
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,060 |
Scarlatti complete sonatas anyone? 😂
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 464
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 464 |
Next: Bach's 371 chorales Bach did not compose chorales. No melodies original to Bach himself are among the 371 chorales, but some or all of BWV 439-507 from the Schemellis Gesangbuch, may be Bach's compositions? Here is the list of 69 chorales with 4-part harmonizations done with a Bach-loaded computer, with PDF's of the scores and MIDI playable with organ, piano, or orchestra. http://djtascha.de/schemellis-gesangbuch/ (the chorales), and http://lilypondblog.org/2015/03/schemellis-gesangbuch/ (how it was done) Closer to the OP, I'm not aware that Debussy quoted or arranged Bach directly, despite Debussy's stated admiration of Bach ("...Bach - a benevolent god..."). The Arabesques are Bach-inspired? Or perhaps the Toccata or one or more of the Etudes? Vs. Rachmaninoff, who arranged the Bach Emaj violin Partita. According to John Gibbons, Rachmaninoff quoted Bach a lot: http://www.holdekunst.com/blog/is-rachmaninov-a-waste-of-time.html
"I will hear in Heaven." Beethoven
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,019
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,019 |
I like Rachmaninoff more now that I've started listening to Moiseiwitsch.
Gary
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 236
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 236 |
I think Debussy versus Ravel makes more sense as a question. In any event, that question would avoid a European-Songfestival-bugger-your-nation type of play-off to come into ... playing the piano.
Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185, Sauter Omega 220
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,600 |
I think Debussy versus Ravel makes more sense as a question. That's right.  I don't think so. Or actually, if we just want to put it in terms of "makes sense," maybe. But "makes sense" isn't the only criterion. Debussy vs. Rachmaninoff is much more interesting than Debussy versus Ravel, because Debussy vs. Ravel is totally "been there/done that." It has already been done an infinite number of times. Debussy vs. Rachmaninoff had been done probably not even a finite number of times.  Debussy vs. Rachmaninoff is, ahem, "out-of-the-way," which I assume is the main reason Joel did it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
Debussy vs. Rachmaninoff is, ahem, "out-of-the-way," which I assume is the main reason Joel did it. Yea. It's sort of a Russian vs French thing.
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,385
Posts3,349,185
Members111,631
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
