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#2550252 - 06/18/16 04:17 AM jazz exercise 2
iamanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 143
Hi!
I am playing Jazz exercise 2 (Oscar Peterson):
https://www.scribd.com/doc/241554591/Sheet-Music-Piano-Oscar-Peterson-Jazz-exercises-pdf
In bar ten there is something strange going on. I am talking about those dotted notes. If you play them as written then they will definitely not sound like swung eight notes. My piano teacher said that these notes could just be played as swung eight notes.
How do you interpret these notes?

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#2550265 - 06/18/16 07:32 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
AndrewJCW Offline
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Loc: Middle of nowhere, Australia
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#2550318 - 06/18/16 01:09 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: AndrewJCW]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 852
Originally Posted By AndrewJCW


The dotted sections sound just like the straight 1/8th note ones

Sometimes swing is hardly even third subdivisions but is just a slight weight emphasis on the up beats with the down beats having just a bit more length in time than the upbeats.

Swing can even be equal length 1/8th notes if the upbeats are weighted right.

The dotted sections could then be phrased as a classic shuffle, which would give a recognizable contrast.

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#2550340 - 06/18/16 02:36 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: AndrewJCW]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1726
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By AndrewJCW


This playing is too mechanical. In fact, it is necessary to articulate each sound differently - like in a talking. There will also be slight changes in rhythm. By the way the difference between the accented and unaccented notes comes from the English language; This is not my native language, and accents seems are excessive.

https://yadi.sk/d/eHY5GFLzsbtfB


Notes in brackets - ghost notes, they should try to swallow. In classical music, they do not exist at all ; their origin from African languages.
Of course, what I play is my personal interpretation within the genre.



Edited by Nahum (06/18/16 02:40 PM)

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#2550453 - 06/19/16 06:33 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: emenelton]
iamanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 143
Originally Posted By emenelton
Originally Posted By AndrewJCW


The dotted sections sound just like the straight 1/8th note ones

Sometimes swing is hardly even third subdivisions but is just a slight weight emphasis on the up beats with the down beats having just a bit more length in time than the upbeats.

Swing can even be equal length 1/8th notes if the upbeats are weighted right.

The dotted sections could then be phrased as a classic shuffle, which would give a recognizable contrast.

One is sometimes taught that eight notes in shuffle and swing have the same feel/sound. Is this a bit wrong according to you?
And maybe here's were "simple" blues (a term from Ireal pro) and jazz-blues differ in the bluesy feel they have. Is this how you see or feel it when you play?

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#2550483 - 06/19/16 10:36 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 852
Originally Posted By iamanders
Originally Posted By emenelton
Originally Posted By AndrewJCW


The dotted sections sound just like the straight 1/8th note ones

Sometimes swing is hardly even third subdivisions but is just a slight weight emphasis on the up beats with the down beats having just a bit more length in time than the upbeats.

Swing can even be equal length 1/8th notes if the upbeats are weighted right.

The dotted sections could then be phrased as a classic shuffle, which would give a recognizable contrast.

One is sometimes taught that eight notes in shuffle and swing have the same feel/sound. Is this a bit wrong according to you?
And maybe here's were "simple" blues (a term from Ireal pro) and jazz-blues differ in the bluesy feel they have. Is this how you see or feel it when you play?


Yes to both of your questions.
I tried to address your first post based on that link.

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#2550637 - 06/19/16 11:37 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1726
Loc: Israel
Here an example of how Peterson plays dotted rhythm:



0:05 - 0:06 , 0:09 -0:10

Short sound - ghost note, and should be indicated by brackets.

It is worth slightly delve into the concept of performance melodic lines in jazz. If the ideal of classical melodic approach - singing, based on Italian bel canto, in jazz takes place synthesis of percussion sound and converting the touch of spoken English in (Afro -) American version. Hence, all sounds contain different measures of emphasis, and the only kind of unaccented sounds - ghost notes.
Therefore, jazz does not tolerate equal rhythm and strictly identical sounds - this is what classical musicians usually don't understand.Well-trained classical pianist can play perfectly straight eighths without any accent. In jazz, it creates the effect of polka.
Especially short sounds often are swallowed (ghost notes); but if their emphasize strong , they require space:  or a large melodic interval , like in a bar 10 on first beat ; or a pauses before or after(large time interval ) ; like in end of a bar 17 . Therefore, dotted rhythm on the second beat of tenth bar looks somewhat illogical - the fifth in itself creates a strong accent, and subsequent intervals are small.








Edited by Nahum (06/20/16 05:19 AM)

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#2550707 - 06/20/16 07:33 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2934
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By iamanders
One is sometimes taught that eight notes in shuffle and swing have the same feel/sound.

For rhythm section blues players this is true to all intents and purposes. Lead and soloing players tend to be a little looser with time.

In jazz the idea that swing should always be a straight triplet went out of the window quite some time ago (tho it can still be). Even in the 60s, Tony Williams playing with Miles Davis would close up what was commonly a triplet skip on the ride cymbal to something tighter even than a 1/16 note (which is sort-of where Oscar is placing it in Nahum's example).

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#2550812 - 06/20/16 03:20 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: dire tonic]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1726
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By dire tonic
Even in the 60s, Tony Williams playing with Miles Davis would close up what was commonly a triplet skip on the ride cymbal to something tighter even than a 1/16 note (which is sort-of where Oscar is placing it in Nahum's example).
Before Tony Williams did it in the '50s Art Blakey; and perhaps he was of the first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_OywebpG4

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#2550981 - 06/21/16 06:11 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: Nahum]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2934
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By Nahum
Before Tony Williams did it in the '50s Art Blakey; and perhaps he was of the first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_OywebpG4

I had that record and played both those Timmons' compositions (/This Here) but hadn't at the time noticed Blakey's drumming. I see what you mean.

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#2550993 - 06/21/16 07:26 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: dire tonic]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1726
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By dire tonic

I had that record and played both those Timmons' compositions (/This Here) but hadn't at the time noticed Blakey's drumming. I see what you mean.
Instead traditional Taatss-ka Taatss-ka Taa he has played Taatss-chKaatss-chKaa

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#2553418 - 07/01/16 11:56 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
iamanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 143
This exercise, I guess, is just an exercise but I still want to look at the chords.
Bar 1 is just a G9 chord with 1-3 in the LH. In bar 2 we have C7 and C#dim if we look at the LH. My question is: why would one choose to play C# in LH after the C? My piano teacher told me that this is a coorect analysis but...this piece seems so primitive like Charlie Patton tunes are primitive. C7 followed by a C#dim doesn't seem like something you would see in a leadsheet. It could simply be a C7 written and then you happen to play a chromatic key in the LH. How would a real jazz-blues pianist (I'm just a beginner) view this?

Then in bar 2 we also have a strange this occuring. The mixed minor/major blues scale does not include a F#. Why then play it unless it would be a chromatic note which it isn't?

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#2553441 - 07/01/16 12:53 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2934
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By iamanders
C7 followed by a C#dim doesn't seem like something you would see in a leadsheet.

As natural as the rising sun. If you look at the RH you're only changing one note between the two chords. Very common, though I haven't done a survey of lead sheets. If you extend this to:-
C7, C#dim, G/D, D# dim, Em; it immediately sounds like gospel to me. Richard Tee would have played it to death.
More generally, the dim works well in a chromatic climb, as here.

Quote:
It could simply be a C7 written and then you happen to play a chromatic key in the LH

Not sure what you mean by that. (eta; if you mean, why not just play the C7 and let the bass climb - yes, that works fine providing you don't play the C natural in the RH. It's only if you feel it's worth being rigorous about what's going on that you would bother to label it C# dim)

Quote:
Then in bar 2 we also have a strange this occuring. The mixed minor/major blues scale does not include a F#. Why then play it unless it would be a chromatic note which it isn't?

But it sounds great, 'right' even. So what do you make of the rules you're learning? If you, too, think it sounds good then ignore the 'rule' that says it shouldn't sound good.


Edited by dire tonic (07/01/16 01:16 PM)

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#2553608 - 07/02/16 07:18 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: dire tonic]
iamanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 143
Originally Posted By dire tonic
Originally Posted By iamanders
C7 followed by a C#dim doesn't seem like something you would see in a leadsheet.

As natural as the rising sun. If you look at the RH you're only changing one note between the two chords. Very common, though I haven't done a survey of lead sheets. If you extend this to:-
C7, C#dim, G/D, D# dim, Em; it immediately sounds like gospel to me. Richard Tee would have played it to death.
More generally, the dim works well in a chromatic climb, as here.

Quote:
It could simply be a C7 written and then you happen to play a chromatic key in the LH

Not sure what you mean by that. (eta; if you mean, why not just play the C7 and let the bass climb - yes, that works fine providing you don't play the C natural in the RH. It's only if you feel it's worth being rigorous about what's going on that you would bother to label it C# dim)

Quote:
Then in bar 2 we also have a strange this occuring. The mixed minor/major blues scale does not include a F#. Why then play it unless it would be a chromatic note which it isn't?

But it sounds great, 'right' even. So what do you make of the rules you're learning? If you, too, think it sounds good then ignore the 'rule' that says it shouldn't sound good.

My take on the F# is that he avoids playing B, D, F which make up a Bdim chord. He also ends up playing D, F, A which constitutes a Dmajor chord. In bar 3 he really aims for the major sound by playing G major7 chord (something I never hear in eg. chicago blues).
Is this also how you think about it?

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#2553614 - 07/02/16 07:51 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2934
Loc: uk south
Yes, Gma7 at the beginning of bar 3. So the triplet at the end of bar 2 is anticipating that chord (actually Gma9 which amounts to the same thing and is much the same as D major with a G root - D/G).

Chicago blues will be much more raw, basic, so a ma7 is not what I'd expect either. I haven't studied blues in a detailed comparative way but it's clear that over time it becomes more sophisticated. Is there even an example of a 1625 turnaround in Chicago blues which is quite common in the jazzier form? I don't know but I doubt it.

Can you spot the 1625 here?

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#2553629 - 07/02/16 09:54 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: dire tonic]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1726
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By dire tonic

As natural as the rising sun. If you look at the RH you're only changing one note between the two chords. Very common, though I haven't done a survey of lead sheets. If you extend this to:-
C7, C#dim, G/D, D# dim, Em; it immediately sounds like gospel to me. Richard Tee would have played it to death.

Subscribe with both hands. Paul Simon - Bridge Over Troubled Water ; O.Peterson -Hymn To Freedom.
I suddenly thought about harmonic line cliché : I/I - I/VII - I/VIIb - I/VI - I/VIb - I/V . The aforecited upward movement of bass is a kind of mirror reflection. Common points between them : both ending on V and in the melody or chords key tonic or fifth are static.


Edited by Nahum (07/02/16 09:56 AM)

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#2553710 - 07/02/16 05:46 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
slowtraveler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 281
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Originally Posted By iamanders
In bar 3 he really aims for the major sound by playing G major7 chord (something I never hear in eg. chicago blues). Is this also how you think about it?

I hear bars 3 and 4 as Bm7 - Em7 | Am7 - D7. It's a pretty obvious diatonic 3-6-2-5 progression, IMO. The first chord could also be Gmaj7, and therefore 1-6-2-5, as dire tonic suggests. Either way, that's one of the things that distinguishes jazz-blues from "simple" blues: more complex harmonies featuring circle-of-fifths chord progressions, as well as note choices that aren't restricted to simple blues scales.

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#2553718 - 07/02/16 06:13 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: slowtraveler]
slowtraveler Offline
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Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 281
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Also, I think it's worth remembering that this is a "jazz" exercise, not a "blues" exercise. As a whole, the piece is really constructed around fragments of the "I Got Rhythm" changes (kind of sliced and diced), rather than a blues form. The use of blues vocabulary is an essential part of jazz playing, but analyzing the harmonic structure and note choices in terms of simple blues chord progressions and scales is not sufficient to understand what's going on in this piece.

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#2553721 - 07/02/16 06:23 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: slowtraveler]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2934
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By slowtraveler
I hear bars 3 and 4 as Bm7 - Em7 | Am7 - D7. It's a pretty obvious diatonic 3-6-2-5 progression, IMO. The first chord could also be Gmaj7, and therefore 1-6-2-5, as dire tonic suggests. Either way, that's one of the things that distinguishes jazz-blues from "simple" blues: more complex harmonies featuring circle-of-fifths chord progressions, as well as note choices that aren't restricted to simple blues scales.

1625 or 3625, the 1 and 3 at the start are negotiable although the D root on that first chord makes a difference to my ear.

The '2' chord here is an A7 rather than Am7 and the final 5 chord being not fully defined I would take as D11 (C/D) given the persistence of the G melody note in that bar.

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#2553737 - 07/02/16 07:38 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: dire tonic]
slowtraveler Offline
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Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 281
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Originally Posted By dire tonic
Originally Posted By slowtraveler
I hear bars 3 and 4 as Bm7 - Em7 | Am7 - D7. It's a pretty obvious diatonic 3-6-2-5 progression, IMO. The first chord could also be Gmaj7, and therefore 1-6-2-5, as dire tonic suggests. Either way, that's one of the things that distinguishes jazz-blues from "simple" blues: more complex harmonies featuring circle-of-fifths chord progressions, as well as note choices that aren't restricted to simple blues scales.

1625 or 3625, the 1 and 3 at the start are negotiable although the D root on that first chord makes a difference to my ear.

The '2' chord here is an A7 rather than Am7 and the final 5 chord being not fully defined I would take as D11 (C/D) given the persistence of the G melody note in that bar.

Oops, you're right about that A7 chord. I'd call that last 5 chord just a 1-7 shell for a simple D7, though.

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#2553870 - 07/03/16 03:45 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
iamanders Offline
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Registered: 04/15/15
Posts: 143
Interesting replies!
We have a 1(or3)-6-2-5(-1) progression but it actually starts with the G9, C7 and C#dim. And the progression ends in bar 8 with a 2-5-1 in LH. We start on a G dominant chord and with one.
In the books on how to learn jazz piano you often see the major 2-5-1 written as minor7-dominant7-major7. Here we have (bar 3 and 4) the 2 chord as a dominant7 chord rather than the minor7 and the 1 chord as a dominant7 chord. And in those books they often write the chords like this: http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/blogimages/2-5-1-Chords_1413772645hords.jpg
It seems that reality is way different from what you learn in books. How did you deal with this when learning 2-5-1 progressions?

Why would someone choose A7 rather than the Amin7 which is the chord in the key of G?
We have that G9-C7-C#dim but how do they fit with a progression that follows the circle of fifth? All I can see is that the 3 first chords is just something like a chromatic bass line. And you could also see the first 4 notes in the bass lines as working very well with the phrasing used in the RH. This is much more than just some interesting harmony. I mean, we have rhythmic thing and phrasing going on here as well. I better just play and feel the piece and how it's made up.
My jazz theory (which is found in the books) doesn't really help me understand this. This piece seem very difficult to analyse unless you are a jazz experts. Am I stupid if I, a jazz newbie, think I can actually understand this piece right now? Doesn't it takes years to understand everyhting in this piece?

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#2553876 - 07/03/16 04:10 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Chicago
The reason someone chooses A7 dominant is because it sounds good. Simple as that!
I wouldn't despair that your knowledge of theory isn't useful. You've simply picked a more difficult piece.
Look at some Irving Berlin or George Gershwin tunes and you'll find the theory easy to analyze.

I would note that while having the II chord just as a dominant is a bit unusual, what is very common is starting the II chord as dominant and then switching it to minor. Look at the A section of Take the A Train, which is a classic example of this. Look also at the end of the A in Just Friends. This works well because if you play the VI chord diatonically it's a minor chord (it is often changed to a dominant as in Rhythm Changes), it moves naturally to a II chord as a dominant.

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#2553886 - 07/03/16 05:22 PM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 852
Originally Posted By iamanders
Interesting replies!
We have a 1(or3)-6-2-5(-1) progression but it actually starts with the G9, C7 and C#dim. And the progression ends in bar 8 with a 2-5-1 in LH. We start on a G dominant chord and with one.
In the books on how to learn jazz piano you often see the major 2-5-1 written as minor7-dominant7-major7. Here we have (bar 3 and 4) the 2 chord as a dominant7 chord rather than the minor7 and the 1 chord as a dominant7 chord. And in those books they often write the chords like this: http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/blogimages/2-5-1-Chords_1413772645hords.jpg
It seems that reality is way different from what you learn in books. How did you deal with this when learning 2-5-1 progressions?

Why would someone choose A7 rather than the Amin7 which is the chord in the key of G?
We have that G9-C7-C#dim but how do they fit with a progression that follows the circle of fifth? All I can see is that the 3 first chords is just something like a chromatic bass line. And you could also see the first 4 notes in the bass lines as working very well with the phrasing used in the RH. This is much more than just some interesting harmony. I mean, we have rhythmic thing and phrasing going on here as well. I better just play and feel the piece and how it's made up.
My jazz theory (which is found in the books) doesn't really help me understand this. This piece seem very difficult to analyse unless you are a jazz experts. Am I stupid if I, a jazz newbie, think I can actually understand this piece right now? Doesn't it takes years to understand everyhting in this piece?



There is all sorts of dominant alterations you will keep happening on. Once you go in the real book and try identifying the progressions in Roman numerals you'll begin putting more things together.

Was wondering why you keep referring to the G9 as a dominant?

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#2553955 - 07/04/16 05:05 AM Re: jazz exercise 2 [Re: iamanders]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2934
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By jjo
The reason someone chooses A7 dominant is because it sounds good. Simple as that!

exactly!

iamanders, if you want to learn to play jazz (rather than blues) I'd recommend you do a google search for jazz lead sheets (hit the images tab) - there'll be more than a lifetime's supply there. Set aside some time everyday to play from a lead sheet, systematically building chords according to the formulae even if at the outset you have to do it at a snail's pace (get your teach to give them to you if you don't already know them - it should be no more than two a4 pages). Slowly but surely it will become easier*. Gradually you'll see patterns forming, things you've played before in various keys - these are the clichés of the genre which have morphed into what many call rules. Remember, the music came first, the rules are an attempt to codify the music, to provide a guide for the novice. They're not actually rules at all. Expect and allow flexibility. For example your concern over chords being diatonic; 1625 and variations crop up in so many guises and colourations that eventually they become chromatic (in jazz, not blues!).

* Stick with a narrow range of keys initially - maybe only one key - that way you'll encounter the same chords more frequently which should help to fix them in your memory. Reject sheets with two many tensions. Start with songs that are limited to the basic chords, major, minor, 7, ma7, m7, dim, aug. You might need to avoid 'jazz' in your google search and go instead for 'traditional' or standards from the great American songbook.


Edited by dire tonic (07/04/16 05:45 AM)

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