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#2552078 - 06/25/16 10:00 PM Trade in
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Hi guys, i had a question smile
Maybe some of you have some experience with this problem i am having ...

Couple of years ago i had purchased an new Kawai K5-ATX "Anytime" model.
I bought it for around 9600 euros, at the time (production date 2012)
Because it was new, it had to be brought in from an another country (Germany), i was happy with the overal quality of the Kawai's at the store, they felt great, but because i wanted an "Anytime" version, it had to be ordered.

Long story short ... the moment i felt the keys when the piano finally was at home, i felt something was wrong. The keys felt ackward, clunky and almost too heavy.
I figured i ll get used to it over the years, and eventough i have by now, i was still slightly ever disappointed and still am this day.

So, i have decided to trade the Kawai in.
I figured the more i wait the lesser the trade in or selling value, plus why would i "torture" myself by playing on a piano i am not happy with.

I always was charmed of the Avantgrand's and wanted to play on a "grand" piano after many years of playing on uprights. So i went to different shops and their experts came by to rate my piano, to decide the trade in value. Almost all of them (and eventough its still a fairly new Kawai and in great shape) gave a trade in value for around 4500 euro. Thats a setback of almost 5000 euro in 4 years time (yeah, pretty crazy)

I could except the trade in, get around 4500 euros for the Kawai, pay an extra 1500 euros to get the Avantgrand N1 ... or i could try to sell the Kawai on the marketplace and hope someone will give around 6000 for the piano (i figured its an fair price to ask for an piano from 2012)
But these are tough times, and i dont know if someone, from the piravte sector, will pay that much for a piano.

So, in my case ... what would you guys do? Whats the best option, or path to take ... Thanks smile
(To be hounest i am kind of baffled to learn that a Kawai K5-ATX from 2012, still in a fairly new state, after 4 years is only worth around half the original price)

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#2552092 - 06/25/16 10:55 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
ElmerJFudd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1260
I fear no pianos, acoustic or digital retain their value very well other than the very few most sought after brands and models. You of course would do better selling privately, to a family looking for an acoustic. You should advertise at the piano studios in your area. Set the asking for price at an attractive point beneath what such an instrument would cost new today and see what happens. You have only time and effort to lose. If someone bites, you'll have more to $ to play with.

The issue with digital technology is that there are constantly new models with ever improving specs offered at the same price points as well. So don't expect a digital to be a good investment either. Also I highly recommend playing the Avant Grand action and making certain you are happy with it, as, well as its sound. The N1 is not the most attractive instrument for your living room, obviously the N2 and 3 have more aesthetic appeal. But yes, if you're sure you want the action then yeah, the N1 is the cheapest way to get your hands on it.

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#2552136 - 06/26/16 06:44 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Your right ElmerJFudd ... i guess i have to play the waiting game and see what folks want to offer. I already put up some advertisements.

I sold some pianos over the years, also privately, its just that i noticed that folks are usually reluctant to pay a lot of money for a piano, and rightfully so, its an expensive hobby smile Plus, times are though these days ...
I guess its just easier for big piano companies to just buy your piano in.

I could go an buy an AvantGrand N2 or an N3 for example, that are priced (still) well over 10.000 euros, and opt for an monthly payment, but than one would be chained by the hands for almost eternity ... those monthly payments will never end.

Everything is so expensive! Its crazy smile

And now that you mentioned "technology improves" i am wondering if i should wait just a little longer before buying an AvantGrand before Yamaha comes out with a new type of AvantGrands, thus making the N1, N2's cheaper. Maybe they ll cut the prices in half.
Its strangely quite at Yamaha, no news about new AG models at all ... while Casio just came out with GP-500 selling for a much less price range.

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#2552141 - 06/26/16 07:13 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2879
Loc: UK
Since your main complaint is about the feel of the action, if you are happy with the sound I wonder what a piano technician says about the possibilities of lightening and improving the action for you? That would be my first step based on what you have said. If no go, or too expensive, then yes a trade in although I expect there will be a loss. You then need to try some DP's, AG or otherwise and see what you like.

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#2552168 - 06/26/16 10:39 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
ElmerJFudd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1260
^^^

this is a good point and crossed my mind as I was posting earlier. if you've never had a technician out and explained what you don't like about what the action is doing it is most CERTAINLY worth the conversation to see what can be tweaked.

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#2552175 - 06/26/16 11:23 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
slobajudge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/14
Posts: 184
If any of above possibilities fails, look at the brighter side. If I was you, and I want something because I am not satisfied with something for my soul (and thats important especially because of music), and I mean really really want something, then consider that you pay for something 4 years ago, so philosophically and practically that period of time is gone and that money doesnt exist for you anymore so who cares. Another money will come anyway as it happens. Reset everything in a present time and just trade and go for something you want and be happy.


Edited by slobajudge (06/26/16 11:56 AM)

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#2552263 - 06/26/16 09:16 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 12094
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Ozan,

I would be inclined to agree with spanishbuddha and ElmerJFudd that it may be worthwhile to seek the services of a piano technician, to check the action and make adjustments to your liking. You may also wish to raise your concerns about the instrument with your Kawai dealer for advice.

May I wish you the best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2552267 - 06/26/16 09:24 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ottawa58 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/16
Posts: 30
Digital pianos are just like computers with keyboards. Just like computers they drop in value fast. However, just like used cars you will probably get more money on a private sale than on a trade. But it might take longer, and more work.

Buying an expensive DP is a big risk, if you are not in it for the long term. Again, just like cars, if you trade up every two years, it's fun but will really cost you. A four year old DP won't have close to it's original value. Lucky to get 50%

That's why high quality controllers are a good buy. That way you upgrade the samples, the computer, and maybe even speakers over time as money permits. But the board is good for a long time.

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#2552271 - 06/26/16 09:49 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
ElmerJFudd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1260
Assuming the developer continues to update the drivers and editing software for the controller, which only seems to happen if the model is popular and there's a good user base. Also, we've been lucky for quite awhile now with USB standardizing and being backward compatible. But I worry that at some point they'll walk away from older devices and change the connector. And maybe we'll get lucky with a third party solution for compatibility... Thunderbolt seems to handle all sorts of connections with a multi port hub.

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#2552309 - 06/27/16 02:17 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Thanks for the advice and the insight guys smile

Its just there is one thing bugging me, has been bugging me for a while actually.
I have been playing upright pianos for a while now, and i guess i got used to them, their action and touch, but everytime i went to take lessons or needed to perform on a grand piano, with its grand action, i had major difficulties to get used to them.

Every performer, a pianist, a composer, from a exhibition to an concert performance, in the media, or real life concert, all seem to be performing on a grand.
I am guessing they have been also pratcising their whole lifes on a grand, and got used to the grand piano action, eventough they might have started practising on an upright piano earlier in their lifes.
So, i always wondered, am i missing something? Am i missing certain techniques that i only can achive on a grand piano? Am i wasting my time on playing uprights? Why is it difficult for me to switch from an upright action to an grand action at my teachers place?

So, a few years ago, i had to decide between an AvantGrand, cause it had an grand action, and was affordable (compared to "real" grand pianos) or i could choose the Kawai K5 upright, wich came with this carbon fiber, Millenium III action, somesorts. It felt greatin the store, when trying it out. And i guess i got suckered in to buying an upright piano, again ... while the heart wanted something else smile

I was like "Damn, these AvantGrands are kinda affordable, especially the N1, and i will finally be able to get used to an grand piano action"
And the dealer was like "Do not trust digital hybrids, technology gets old quick, go for the Kawai K5, eventough its an upright piano, you ll have an "real" piano"
And i was like "Huh ... makes sense i guess."

Aaargh smile

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#2552312 - 06/27/16 02:57 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Frédéric L Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 833
Loc: France
"Do not trust digital hybrids, technology gets old quick"...

"Getting old" could mean two different things :

* New technology get better... It is true, but it doesn't reduce the "value" of your piano, only the price you could get from selling your piano.

* the electronic wears with the time. It could get more noisy (in 2000+, I had a 20 years old DX7 with a unuseable phone jack : too noisy), or worse the electronic could break down and you need to change a card.

Anyway, I suppose the keyboard to wear quite slowly... And the MIDI output useable with a virtual piano to get the state of art piano sound.
_________________________
Yamaha CLP150, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq

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#2552349 - 06/27/16 08:33 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ottawa58 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/16
Posts: 30
About grand pianos - yes, they sound great, and are fun to play. Their action is unique and allows advanced players to get more from their music. But there is also lots of snobbery out there saying that unless you are playing on a grand, that your music is inferior. Hogwash. Many great players of today play on DP's. I have no doubt in my mind that if Chopin or Debussy were around today they would be playing on something very modern. They were innovators. Bach would be playing on whatever the church had.

All to say, that before you buy an avantgrand and spend a ton of money (or worse borrow the money) on what is essentially a DP with a nice keyboard, think about it. The keyboard will probably stay good for awhile (with costly regulation), but the operating systems and sounds will soon be outdated. There are already complaints on this forum that the avantgrand sounds aren't up to par.

I really can't see why those who want a grand action in a DP don't go to a VPC1 (I will on my next purchase). It is pretty close (maybe not 100%), but allows you in future to replace your computer, the piano samples or software you are using, upgrade and replace your amp and speakers, all without having to buy a whole new thing. It is much much cheaper to buy. Is that extra 5% of touch and feel really worth it? Are you regularly stepping out of your home studio to play a grand in concert halls?

Another note --- I'm moving in a few weeks. I'm sure as heck glad I'm moving my slab, rather than a grand piano, which would be very expensive including more tuning etc. Just one more reason.....

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#2552362 - 06/27/16 10:04 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Pete14 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 573
Bach would most certainly be playing Pianoteq via a VPC1; however, Chopin would not. As a matter of fact, he would be a snob. Keep in mind that Chopin was the king of redundancy; i.e. 'Lento ma non troppo,' and the likes. He would also say things like 'this is the most beautiful melody I've ever written' (Etude in E major).
Bach, on the other hand, described the Goldbergs as 'a work/piece for keyboard players' (maybe it was the WTC, but you get the point). No-drama-get-it-done approach, yet he was the greatest; incidentally, Chopin and Beethoven agree with me on this.
Beethoven would be a major snob, were he alive today. As a matter of fact, he'd probably sue you for not taking the repeat on the Pathetique!

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#2552378 - 06/27/16 10:49 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Beethoven would brake an Digital Piano in half i think, haha

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#2552433 - 06/27/16 01:45 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Pete14]
ElmerJFudd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1260
Originally Posted By Pete14
Bach would most certainly be playing Pianoteq via a VPC1; however, Chopin would not. As a matter of fact, he would be a snob. Keep in mind that Chopin was the king of redundancy; i.e. 'Lento ma non troppo,' and the likes. He would also say things like 'this is the most beautiful melody I've ever written' (Etude in E major).
Bach, on the other hand, described the Goldbergs as 'a work/piece for keyboard players' (maybe it was the WTC, but you get the point). No-drama-get-it-done approach, yet he was the greatest; incidentally, Chopin and Beethoven agree with me on this.
Beethoven would be a major snob, were he alive today. As a matter of fact, he'd probably sue you for not taking the repeat on the Pathetique!


Sheesh, presumptuous maybe? lol

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#2552450 - 06/27/16 02:31 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Pete14 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 573
grin

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#2552596 - 06/28/16 03:19 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
So, as Kawai James and others had suggested, i figured i'd call the dealer to setup an appointment first, to see if the keys of the Kawai K5 could get regulated or corrected to fit my needs, before i trade it in, or sell it.
But, it seems the dealer has gone bankrupt ... the store has closed down and does not exist anymore ... yeah, thats just great.
I dont know if i can contact Kawai directly or how all this works, never done it before.

Actually, i am kind of surprised and at the same time not surprised. Surprised cause the store got closed, it was a pretty big sized and professional piano store in my town. And not surprised cause in my country, besides piano stores, alot of stores are being closed or go bankrupt cause of the influence of the internet, and ordering stuff directly online. Nobody actually seems to be going to the stores anymore, even when buying electronics and such ... you can even order breakfast online or do groceries, haha. Oh, man ...

I mean, just the other week, i think i read it here on one of the threads on the forum, that some people are ordering pianos, or even digitals, from other tax free states to save a lot of money. You just order online and they bring your piano all the way to your doorsteps.
Cant really blame them, i guess.

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#2552599 - 06/28/16 03:27 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 12094
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Ozan, I'm very sorry to hear that the store from which you purchased your K-5 has gone out of business. My advice would be to contact Kawai Europe for further assistance. The office is based in Germany, however they are also responsible for the Holland market, and should be able to provide advice regarding maintenance/servicing.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2553674 - 07/02/16 01:56 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Thx for the advice James, but after some deliberating and the potential repair costs, i went with the Yamaha deal.
The store upped the trade in deal, giving me a bit more value on the Kawai, so i went and ordered the AvantGrand N1.

I do like Kawai pianos and especially how they sound, i like their darker tone on the uprights, such as the K3's and the K5's.
I had a K3 upright before this one, so this Kawai K5 of mine might just have been a fluke, a case of being unlucky.

On the other hand, as an upright player my whole life, i am finally looking forward to the grand action on the AG N1.
(Lets just hope its all hyped up to be *crossed fingers* haha)

Anyways, i wanna thank you all for the advice smile

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#2553676 - 07/02/16 02:26 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5604
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Ozan, which dealer did you buy from?

I live in Noord Brabant and bought mine through Clavis in Nieuwegein.
_________________________

website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Yamaha CP5 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones

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#2553692 - 07/02/16 03:59 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Dave, i bought, ordered the N1 from Ypma pianos, Steinway Center, in Noord-Holland.
It was the closest, nearby Yamaha dealer for me smile

I actually went and tried out a AvantGrand at Clavis, in Amsterdam, but the Ypma store gave me a pretty decent trade-in value.

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#2553696 - 07/02/16 04:40 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Dave Horne Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5604
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By Ozan
Dave, i bought, ordered the N1 from Ypma pianos, Steinway Center, in Noord-Holland.
It was the closest, nearby Yamaha dealer for me smile

I actually went and tried out a AvantGrand at Clavis, in Amsterdam, but the Ypma store gave me a pretty decent trade-in value.


That's how I felt when Clavis made me an offer for me to trade in my GranTouch.

If you're ever down this way stop by. I live just outside of Den Bosch.

I know you'll enjoy your new piano. Had Yamaha offered the N1 first I would have purchased that. Have fun!
_________________________

website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Yamaha CP5 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones

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#2553957 - 07/04/16 05:15 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Holland
Haha, thanks for the invite Dave.
If i ever go down route to Belgium, i'll stop by smile

I ll try to give my thoughts on the N1 once it has arived.
Maybe they did little revisions, updated some stuff on the N1? It has been out for almost 5 years now ...

I dont understand why, since we live in the age of internet, after you made a big investment in the AvantGrands, that Yamaha doesnt update their piano sounds samples, put them on their website, and let them download to your Avantgrands, so you can update the piano samples?
Surely they have better recording techniques in 2016 than back in 2011? smile

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#2553958 - 07/04/16 05:20 AM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4805
Loc: North Carolina
I doubt that recording techniques in 2016 are any different from those in 2011.

And I can't think of any reason why Yamaha would update the AG sound samples.
Would it be profitable?

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#2554049 - 07/04/16 12:27 PM Re: Trade in [Re: Ozan]
Frédéric L Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 833
Loc: France
I suppose that enhancing N1 samples imply increasing the memory. It can't be done via Internet.

But it could be nice to have many pianos available like we have with Nord Piano.
_________________________
Yamaha CLP150, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq

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